Chat log from the meeting on 2017-06-20

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[11:00] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: summertime does affect attendance though as more people outside and holidays
[11:08] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i see everyones name ok but i am the only local resident
[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup. any reason for the slowness?
[11:09] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i blame mesh
[11:09] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: not sure what it is, it only happens once in a while and some times when I arrive.
[11:09] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: Its disorientating when I can see the names above peoples heads but not in local chat.
[11:10] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i have bubble chat on to avoid that problem
[11:10] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: i was at the other meeting place, i didnt know about this one
[11:10] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: That is my usual strategy @Arielle
[11:11] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: << i'm not in the cool kids club anymore, lol >
[11:11] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: oh the sign is no longer up?
[11:11] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: that says the dev meeting is here?
[11:11] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I did not see one
[11:11] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: ok
[11:11] JayR Cela: yes this location is very difficult to find :_(
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I looked last week for a link and didn't see one at the old site.
[11:12] George Equus: sign is gone
[11:12] George Equus: been for a few weeks
[11:12] JayR Cela: the OSGrid info page still just lists it's location as in Wright Plaza
[11:12] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Be sure to get LM for here if you don't have one.
[11:12] George Equus: and a rather cryptic name  :)
[11:12] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty, George gave me a lm =)
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i am not sure how long this region is up for but was told it is better for meetings
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: some people had issues with wright because it has so much stuff it created lag
[11:14] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: this is a nice low impact region
[11:14] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Does seem to have less lag
[11:14] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: agreed
[11:14] George Equus: On request by Ubit I think, he suffer lag at the other place...
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: yes
[11:14] George Equus: personally never suffer much lag on wright
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i used to on a low bandwidth connection
[11:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: If you ever need a place, I can provide space on Kitely
[11:15] George Equus: Question... any recent (like today) problems with HG?
[11:15] JayR Cela: @George / not for me :_)
[11:16] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: not that I noticed George
[11:16] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Coming here was my only HG jump today. Went fine, once I fixed my URL typos. ;)
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: not been on HG for a week or so
[11:16] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: i tp'd from kitely to OS easily
[11:16] George Equus: got stuck everywhere all afternoon when trying to HG
[11:16] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have not seen any HG problems recently.
[11:16] George Equus: OK, some local thing then...
[11:16] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: i did notice in the last few days, many of my HG lm's "cant contact the region"
[11:16] George Equus: US Euro connection
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: thats a pain Don
[11:17] George Equus: or can't find it at all
[11:17] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: or even show on map
[11:17] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Except with Outworlds -- it has dynamic dns
[11:17] George Equus: even got stuck trying to tp from one level to another on my own region
[11:17] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: ouch
[11:17] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Starting to seem like it is going to be a user meeting rather than a dev meeting today. ;)
[11:17] George Equus: mmmm unexpexted
[11:18] George Equus: sorry. please over to Devs
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: they can read it after and see what there are issues with etc
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: I thought it was an "open house" meeting with the devs
[11:21] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: so any other issues or things that need fixing we can talk about?
[11:21] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: /puts thinking hat on
[11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The OS Devs could have their own WG.
[11:22] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The IMA WG support is working now -- The OS Devs could have their own WG.
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: WG?
[11:22] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am hopeful Ubit can share a possible fix for a texturing issue i've had for a while
[11:22] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: working group
[11:22] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: Working Group (WG) I assume
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: ahh
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: turns on lightbulb
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: what issue Don?
[11:23] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: acronym soup my favourite
[11:23] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Where are IMA meeting locations posted, Selby? I subscribed to the IMA mailing list and calendar, but neither seems to be used. So I never know where the next meeting will be.
[11:23] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: the issue : when applying a texture to multipule objects < prims > at the same time, the texture will not stick to all surfaces, sometimes not even after clicking to reapply multipule times
[11:24] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: sometimes not at all
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: ahh ok that was an issue raised last week?
[11:24] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: Selby here has been investigating and testing < with help from a Kayaker test object > to help me find if a solution can be found and implimented to fix this
[11:25] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will see Marcus--I get the info from Steve -- but there should be more promotion, I guess -- This friday the meeting will be at my place on Kitely
[11:25] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Are these prims linked? Or simply all selected?
[11:25] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Thanks Selby. :)
[11:25] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: just selected, being linked doesnt seem to affect the problem < meaning even if linked same issue >
[11:26] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: the Prims are linked, Marcus
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: ok was raised by Selby's testing. Ubit mentioned something about it to me
[11:26] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: Selbys test object they are linked, i have also done lots of testing usually with just selected prims
[11:26] Kayaker Magic: It can happen with a single prim, but having more faces by linking a bunch of prims together increases the probability of seeing one face fail to get the texture.
[11:27] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: Its enough of a problem for me when building it breaks my focus < which is why i build >
[11:28] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: How many prims do you usually select at once?
[11:28] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: with my test object, I get a fail in 12 tests. in most grids
[11:29] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: as little as 5 and up to 100+ for my testing
[11:29] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: can happen on a single prim
[11:29] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Ah.... there. Just happened to these prims.
[11:29] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: One didn't take.
[11:29] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Prims have an 'order' when multi-selected, no?
[11:30] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'm still convinced this issue is as much a networking issue as an opensim issue
[11:30] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: i am.....lets just say, an Insane builder, i build faster then most people and often i design a build and try to texture in groups of surfaces at a time, this issue causes me to keep stopping and fixing textures, breaking my focus on design and building further
[11:30] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: How very random... some random face just doesn't seem to get the update
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: shouldnt be an issue then on localhost sim
[11:31] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: You can almost watch the packets drop when this occurs
[11:31] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: I can see how that would be distracting @Don
[11:31] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I never have this issue, which is weird ..
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: any difference between viewers?
[11:31] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: here is a 5000 prim Ballroom/shopping mall i designed and built in 12 days, its got a glass dance floor over a massive waterfall all set on the ocean.
[11:32] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: i've only noticed since people starting talking about #SelectiveAttention
[11:32] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: this video is the grand opening event there .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0LBZYNIIVQ
[11:32] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: viewer seems to have zero effect on this issue
[11:32] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I tested with Firestorm 64 , kokua and alchemy 5 beta and can't make it happen , but if I go to a remote sim, external to my grid, I can make it happen all the time .. like to a sandbox here on OSGRID ...
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you try to adjust the setting in OpenSim.ini how often changes are flushed to disk?
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: what about changing the bandwidth limit?
[11:33] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I've been on kitely, so i dont think i can adjust that < can i? >
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: of the viewer
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no you can't
[11:34] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: bandwidth limit i have tried changing, i got no change in the problem
[11:34] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Especially if you are running on a debian flavor of linux, the networking is anemic, there are some udp tweaks you can make that seem to make this issue vanish on local sims
[11:34] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: without ever touching opensim code
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit did some work on udp recently
[11:35] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I tested bandwidth changes without success
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In this case the bandwidth does not matter much as it is just an update of xml that already exist in the asset server
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless the linked mesh is massive
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or prims
[11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Bandwidth does matter, if it is dropping udp packets
[11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the viewer has to send the update to the region
[11:36] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: i believe you, however, when adjusting the bandwidth lower or higher, i got same results on kitely
[11:36] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: well not bandwidth, congestion is more apt
[11:36] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Fred B. also suggested bandwidth changes. But I found no settings that fixed the problem.
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll test it with a completely different database and see what happens
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: anyone tested on master within the past couple weeks?
[11:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I run nothing but master
[11:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I posted a video not long ago, and can't make it happen
[11:37] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: Digiworlds has solved the issue, their server version of OS doesnt have this issue
[11:38] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: It was happening for me here, although HG is possibly a factor.
[11:38] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: related? http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6494
[11:39] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Look like an unrelated mantis to me, James.
[11:39] James atLLOUD: ok :)
[11:40] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I appreciate everyones inputs and thoughts on the issue
[11:40] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Apparently solved in OS master. Terry Ford does not know what he did to fix it.
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: Ubit did do something very recently in an attempt to resolve it
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: after Selby posted his tests
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: was there a difference between windows and linux servers btw?
[11:42] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I think Ubit did fix it -- And I hope he can give a copy of the patch to Kitely or to me
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Selby all changes are on the git for anyone to pick up
[11:44] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Arielle -- I did not keep track of the servers.
[11:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: The fix was for the .9x codebase, so not sure it is gonna help any grid not up to speed on that
[11:44] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Oh -- thanks Gavin
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Kitely will potentially have to re-work it for their code base
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: i would say we need a .9 release
[11:45] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: they have a core dev of their own: Oren ...
[11:45] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, Gavin, but that puts the ball in their court.
[11:45] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: Agreed Arielle
[11:45] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: so there's one familiar with the code base
[11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Can't say I blame the dev team for not doing a release, with all the complaining about this and that, and the mesh , yada yada yada
[11:46] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Well, Oren is great, but so much code has been refactored/added/changed with 0.9. It's a lot to keep up with.
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: shrugs, we always complain so nothing new in that
[11:47] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: Orin and Ilan are currently working on a big project and i was informed they did not have the time to look into my problem, even if this change/fix was given to them, i'd be surprised if they fixed it for me tbh
[11:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: That is true, but the vile stuff being said about .9 goes even above that ..
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: they have gotten over it for 10 years so why not now
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: who is saying it?
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: the ones on it like it
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think perhaps the 0.9 codebase has to settle down a bit and be tested unchanged for a while before release to a wider audience
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: too many changes going on right now
[11:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I would agree with Gavin on that
[11:48] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Ilan asked me to look for a fix and now I have one.
[11:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I run bleeding edge, and my users are happy with it, but they understand that it is a tad bit "different"
[11:48] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: There's always people who resist an upgrade. Sometimes for trivial/subjective reasons, but grid operators do have legitimate concerns about going to a new version.
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: i think testing by a wider audience would be good too
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it depends Arielle
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: whats the biggest issue with .9 by those who havent upgraded?
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we don't want a repeat of the mesh disaster that struck for the 0.8.2 release
[11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the biggest thing people complain about is the mesh issue with ubODE, but they can still run bullet if they want
[11:49] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: It's trivial to keep using Bullet.
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: but can stay on bullet
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: so not really a legit complaint
[11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: .9x is a little bit more of a memory hog
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: imo
[11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but not much
[11:50] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: It also wouldn't hurt if more grid owners ran test regions with things like ubODE enabled, so that they can contribute rather than complain.
[11:50] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: ok, i am from the future < lol > and i have decided to give you each mental powers with the ability to create alternate realities where you can do anything you can imagine without effect on real life. You're all Welcome! < As if i could rofl > Call it Open Sim 1million
[11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I run ubODE on all my .9x regions
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Sorry I'm late. I distracted myself by trying to finish off something before I came in. When I did try to get in I found I was having trouble.
[11:51] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: me too @Bill
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I run some with Bullet and some with uBODE
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: yes Marcus on more grids testing
[11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and I have done lots of tests and videos, but people seem to gloss over them .. Because I'm not a big guy
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: am curious how many havent upgraded
[11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: Metro and Kitely
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: what other big grids?
[11:52] James atLLOUD: with each release, is one physics engine the 'recommended' one?
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: usually a default one but can be changed per grid
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes. Change in physics engine was a big bone of contention for a lot of people.
[11:52] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Some aren't big per se, but still popular. 3rd Rock Grid, Great Canadian Grid, Francogrid are examples.
[11:52] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Metro is on the latest "released" OpenSim but allows newer versions to be connected
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: any complaints from those on newer Sheera?
[11:53] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Marcus, would it help if the IMA computer ran some test regions like that?
[11:53] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: not to my knowledge...
[11:53] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: most complaints are results of other problems
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: nod
[11:54] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: As long as the IMA grid admins also submit mantis reports, it certainly would, I should think, Selby. :)
[11:54] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: like IPv6...
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: so Andrew, whats still needed to make a .9 release?
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if Robust is not updated there could be all kinds of issues on simulators running 0.9
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and that swings both ways
[11:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: If the IMA is going to test it, and release "results" they need to make sure they have someone who fully understands .9x before just throwing a region up and testing ..
[11:55] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: up to now we didn't experience problems with our 0.8.2+ Robust
[11:55] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: even though there are quite some 0.9 regions
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, I don't know. You could check the list of mantis reports to see what bugs are still open. I haven't talked with the other core devs lately to know what still needs to be done.
[11:55] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: That's a good point. Occasionally, simulators do require the newer ROBUST, making running release and master side by side more challenging.
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: before the stated holdup was permissions but we no longer hear of complaints there
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have experienced all kinds of oddities if robust and simulators are not on more or less the same 0.9 dev version
[11:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I run a .9x robust but have .8x connected regions as well, and have not run into any actual issues
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, what do you mean by "some aren't big per se"? What is "big". AFAIK, The GCG has about 1,000 regions online. You don't consider that big?
[11:57] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Yeah, I can't think of anything I've heard about that should break sim compatibility with ROBUST. Doesn't mean there aren't a few edge cases, though. ;)
[11:58] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: you may see some debug messages that either .8x does not understand from .9x or vice versa but no actual issues
[11:58] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I actually didn't know GCG was that big! Hehe. But was meaning grids that float around the 50-100 region mark. There's many of them.
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: most of the bigger grids are fairly modified from stock opensim
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I don't know how they did it but they got big very quickly.
[11:58] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is true, even I run with a couple of mods, but nothing that really impacts the core
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: i thought they dropped again
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, They capped the number of regions at 1,000 IIRC.
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: but no idea of their current as they no longer release their figures publically
[11:59] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Good on GCG. :)
[12:00] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: All of your work and efforts to improve OS are appreciated guys/gals!
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Too bad misterblue isn't at these latest meetings.
[12:02] Arielle Popstar: scary question, do the core devs still talk to each other?
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Arille, yes we do.
[12:03] James atLLOUD: IRC IIRC - lol
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: ok you said you hadnt talked with any recently
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: so wondered
[12:03] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: We don't always see all of their communications. They have their own private chats.
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, not specifically about what needs to be done in order to release 0.9
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: There are 5 core devs in our core IRC channel right now.
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: to my mind it is the big question
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: when and what needs to be done to get it there
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, I'll get that discussion going amongst the core group
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: kk that would be great Andrew
[12:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: did Ubit bring up the osNotecard threat levels to you guys?
[12:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I am still trying to figure out why those functions are such a hight threat level
[12:06] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: What about those threat levels?
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I did see a question about why it has the threat level it does have. I didn't see any response to that question
[12:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: you can do those functions with lsl but you have to use the dataserver and it is slow and a lot more code ..
[12:07] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: That discussion comes up from time to time...
[12:07] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I remember it being discussed and attibuted to DoS attacks
[12:07] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: They're as they are because they can potentially put a very high load on the asset service(s).
[12:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: potentially so can rezobjecty
[12:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: hehe
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: One of the reason a function can get a higher threat level than one might think has to do with what takes places in OpenSim to execute the function.
[12:07] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Believe me, I WISH they could have a lower threat level and be more usable. Those are wonderful functions. But it would be trivial for griefers to misuse them.
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I've asked about the threat level of a few functions in the past when I was adding them.
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: per region, grid services or database?
[12:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: there are so many other functions that you can bring a sim to its knees if you have scripting rights, if they are gonna do it they'll find a way
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks nods to Bill
[12:09] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: True, but osNotecard functions are, as I said, trivial to abuse, even unintentionally. A large number of users with HUDs that use updateable notecards could even be an issue.
[12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hell you can bring a sim to it's knees with chat spam, and don't need anything but basic rights for that ..
[12:10] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: There's nothing stopping a grid owner from making them generally available. But on the whole, they're safer as a high threat level. :(
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, Marcus. That is one of the reasons that the os function to create notecards is restricted by default. A lot of script authors saw the function listed and assumed they could (or should) be allowed to use them.
[12:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: well , I'll say this, I can bring a region to it's knees with using dataserver events to read notecards, so I don't really see the difference ...
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: The threat levels can be a guide to grid owners to think about what might happen if some functions were enabled and whether they feel they would be safe to have enabled in their grid.
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: how much problem does it create with not being able to use it
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: In other words, they need to think about what is being enabled before just going ahead and enabling a ton of stuff without thinking about the implications.
[12:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Well I'll give you this example of use, I made a tp hud that reads it's locations from a notecard .. works great .. BAM land on a foreign sim SCRIPT ERROR
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: right
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, a lot of problems when you have to deal with a lot of users and/or script writers who have gadgets that want to create notecards and they find it isn't permitted in the grid.
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: so its a pain
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: with a high threat level
[12:13] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: It doesn't create a problem.. But it does mean we can't do more nifty things. For example. many objects store settings only until a script is reset. the notecard functions could allow a creator to write the configuration to a notecard, and the settings would persist, or even be interchangable.
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, if you are just reading locations from an NC there is no real need to do that using os functions.
[12:13] Tannoy OSgrider: I think that at least reading notecard could be at lower thread lvl
[12:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: My specific question to Ubit was osGetnotecard functions
[12:14] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: The problem is that everytime you write to a notecard, even a single character, you're creating a whole new asset.
[12:14] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I can understand the make functions being higher
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: For some script writers it is a problem because they may want to sell their items in multiple grids without having to have different versions for different grids.
[12:15] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: The osGetNotcardX functions , IMHO, should not be that high
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: so it is possible to break a grid or a database with it?
[12:15] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I actually do just that. I have a INI style configuration script that reads from notecards.
[12:15] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: There's also a version that can write to them.
[12:15] James atLLOUD: what would be an alternative to a notecard to store customizations for a script?
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, That is a question for Ubit and/or Melanie who would have a better idea of what is going on in the background when using that function.
[12:15] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: using the LSL Dataserver and LSL functions to read notecards
[12:16] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: the usual alternative is to use something offsite using HTTP. a keyvalue store for example.
[12:16] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: those are unrestricted
[12:16] James atLLOUD: ah ty Marcus
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: that raises the level of complexity
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, yes that can be done but a lot of people wouldn't know how to do it or wouldn't have access to an offsite database.
[12:16] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Agreed. I don't consider it ideal.
[12:16] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: You can use the LSL dataserver, but there is a built in delay, it is slow and does not do really well with multiple quick calls ...
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, it does a bit but not too much.
[12:17] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: and it would help if one could safely delete objects from the asset storage
[12:17] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: What would be nice are mutable assets.
[12:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: warning chat spam incoming
[12:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: dataserver(key query_id, string data)
{
if (query_id == notecardQueryId)
{
if (data == EOF){
// llOwnerSay("Done reading notecard, read " + (string) notecardLine + " notecard lines.");
// llOwnerSay((string)tmplist);
Dlist = tmplist;
Llist = llList2ListStrided(llDeleteSubList(Dlist, 0, 0), 0, -1, 2);
Dlist = llList2ListStrided(Dlist,0,-1,2);
// llOwnerSay((string)Llist);
// llOwnerSay((string)Dlist);
}
else
{
// bump line number for reporting purposes and in preparation for reading next line
++notecardLine;

tmplist = tmplist + data;
//llOwnerSay( "Line: " + (string) notecardLine + " " + data);
notecardQueryId = llGetNotecardLine(notecardName, notecardLine);
}
}
}
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are using it for configuration options they should only need to be read once when the item is first rezzed.
[12:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: example of using the data server to read notecards, but can be done with about 4 lines with os functions
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: If an item is rezzed, configured, and taken back to inventory the settings will stay when the item is rezzed again. The only problem is if the item gets reset as that would make the script lose any changes to its default configuration
[12:19] James atLLOUD: the threat is that any scripter can abuse reading a notecard, yes?
[12:20] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: How difficult would it be to create a mutable asset type?
[12:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but any scripter CAN read a notecard without OS functions
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: James, yes they could.
[12:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the threat is in MAKING notecards with the os functions
[12:20] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: James, on a lower level, they could give the sim cache or grid asset service a real beating.
[12:20] James atLLOUD: yes. thanks.
[12:21] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Reading notecards should be a NON-issue, for os functions, making could be an issue
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, Yes, a scripter can read NC's without using os functions.
[12:21] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: well, the dataserver event is throttled to reduce the potential for attacks
[12:21] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes but you can still kill a region with it
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Once you have a script that reads an NC it is easy to reuse that code in other scripts.
[12:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I still don't see how reading is a threat ... <shrug>
[12:22] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Sadly, we can't presume that all scripts will behave rationally or responsibly.
[12:22] Tannoy OSgrider: dataserver is higher threat than reading notecard
[12:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'd think so
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, You would have to understand what goes on behind the scenes in order to know why a function was given the threat level it has been assigned.
[12:23] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: You assume I don't .. LOL ... . :P
[12:23] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I understand why making notecards is that threat level , believe me
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I'm not saying that you in particular don't.
[12:23] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I was just being cheeky
[12:24] James atLLOUD: :)
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Like I said, don't really have an argument with the make notecard function
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought a function I added to the os functions was a low threat until I was told why it needed a higher threat level.
[12:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but even though the dataserver is throttled, it can balloon to kill a region
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: No, but it is a good question as to why the os function to read an NC has the threat level it has.
[12:25] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: As I said before, I adore the notecard functions, They're the cat's meow. But in order to convince devs that they're not a threat, you're going to need to show them real performance testing with numbers. Something definitely empirical.
[12:25] Arielle Popstar: unfortunately the reasonings arent made known to the people who would benefit from the knowledge
[12:25] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I guess my thought is , OS functions were supposed to be an improvement to LSL functions, but in the readnotecard instance it is a downgrade ...
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Making the reasons known could benefit people, including the griefers who might then known better ways to mess up a region or grid.
[12:26] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I asked about the notecard functions years ago. Melanie explained it to me in no uncertain terms that they can be an issue. And I ain't arguing with someone who knows OpenSim as well as Mel does. ;)
[12:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ok empirical data, 40 lines of code versus 4, 1.5 ms delay per line compared to .5
[12:27] Arielle Popstar: Mel does have a high security level bias
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Some functions can require database access in order to do what they need to do. That can result in a function having a higher threat level than some other function.
[12:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so you are adding not only to the timer, but to the script compile engine
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: that other grid operators may not share if they understand the risks
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, Any grid owner should have a high security bias.
[12:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes
[12:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I agree
[12:28] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Just because your script has fewer lines does not mean that the implementation behind that function is a simple one. That's not a logical assumption.
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: a commercial grid perhaps
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: many arent
[12:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I just don't understand the read threat level, the others I understand
[12:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Again I was just being cheeky Marcus
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, how did you come up with the delay times?
[12:29] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Sorry, I missed the nuance. :)
[12:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: You can look at the lsl api and see the built in delays
[12:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and I tested by spitting out wall clock at each line
[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that delay really going to be important if you are only reading the data when an item is rezzed (for example)?
[12:30] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: depends on how many lines
[12:30] Tannoy OSgrider: than we can put down and textures loading on high treat because it's accessing grids db
[12:31] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: If you tell me the DB cannot handle calls for text from a notecard, I'm gonna tell you to fix the db not the script function ..
[12:31] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P
[12:31] Arielle Popstar: we need to get Mel to a few of these meetings
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Tannoy, they might have higher levels. I still haven't finish updating the OS wiki with the threat level and script delays for os functions
[12:32] Tannoy OSgrider: I know, I'm only kidding about this
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: It just reminds me of yet one more item on my todo list.
[12:33] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: of course on my grid NOW all the LSL calls built in timings are 10% of what they were, and I have had no issues ... Yes I modded the api
[12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, we also need misterblue here if we are going to keep talking about physics engine.
[12:33] Arielle Popstar: last he mentioned was about needing to rewrite Bullet
[12:34] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: To me it appears that some aspects of the code are still considering 10-15 year old hardware and speeds ...
[12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, how did you manage to get those script times down so much and are you planning on sharing the changes?
[12:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: If a modern MySQL server cannot handle thousands of calls a second, then there is an issue with the DB not the core code
[12:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they are all in the LSL api
[12:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they are pretty much right at the top
[12:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'll grab an example
[12:36] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: in the public class LSL_Api : MarshalByRefObject, ILSL_Api, IScriptApi
{
[12:36] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: section of the LSL_Api
[12:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: this is unmoddified code btw
[12:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: protected int EMAIL_PAUSE_TIME = 20; // documented delay value for smtp.
protected int m_sleepMsOnSetTexture = 200;
protected int m_sleepMsOnSetLinkTexture = 200;
protected int m_sleepMsOnScaleTexture = 200;
protected int m_sleepMsOnOffsetTexture = 200;
protected int m_sleepMsOnRotateTexture = 200;
protected int m_sleepMsOnSetPos = 200;
protected int m_sleepMsOnSetRot = 200;
protected int m_sleepMsOnSetLocalRot = 200;
protected int m_sleepMsOnPreloadSound = 1000;
protected int m_sleepMsOnMakeExplosion = 100;
protected int m_sleepMsOnMakeFountain = 100;
protected int m_sleepMsOnMakeSmoke = 100;
[12:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: some of them are crasy
[12:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: protected int m_sleepMsOnGiveInventory = 3000;
[12:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: protected int m_sleepMsOnLoadURL = 10000;
protected int m_sleepMsOnParcelMediaCommandList = 2000;
protected int m_sleepMsOnParcelMediaQuery = 2000;
protected int m_sleepMsOnModPow = 1000;
protected int m_sleepMsOnSetPrimURL = 2000;
protected int m_sleepMsOnRefreshPrimURL = 20000;
[12:38] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: those are stock numbers not the ones I use
[12:38] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I reduced all of them to 10% of their settings
[12:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Without checking I think those numbers are the delays imposed on the functions according to SL.
[12:39] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yep
[12:39] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but we not SL
[12:39] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and I am sure those numbers were for 10-15 year old viewers and server hardware
[12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: No, but you have to decide whether reducing those penalties on some functions will make it more likely that they could be abused.
[12:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: you can see a difference in how fast scripts work , in a big script that has multiple functions ..
[12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: How has reducing those times impacted the system load?
[12:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Load , NONE
[12:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but then again, my servers are NOT overloaded , as I prefer to have more hardware than I need
[12:41] Tannoy OSgrider: I'm interested how much is loading animations in this
[12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: If you think those limits are slowing down scripts why did you just reduce the values to 10% of their original instead of just setting them to 0?
[12:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything else before we wrap it up for today?
[12:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Lowering some of the limits can have an impact on the script runtime and how it might impact other scripts and/or the region.
[12:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: reducing to 10% was the easiest .. just took a zero off the end, wanted to live dangerously not deadly ..
[12:47] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: sure it would have an impact...
[12:47] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that's what we want to see at times^^
[12:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, :)
[12:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I have a lot of heavy scripts, and I have not seen a degradation of performance, but I do notice an increase in script response time
[12:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Using delays can have an impact so removing the need for them could help in several ways. Whether it makes some functions more open to abuse by lowering the delay times would depend on the particular function.
[12:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, it takes longer for some scripts to respond?
[12:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: does not really matter to me if the script takes 1 minute or 3 minutes to crash the sim the result ends up being the same .. Since you usuallly don't know till it goes down anyway
[12:50] Andrew Hellershanks: A couple of the other core devs never seem to be available at this time of day.
[12:51] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: :-(
[12:51] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: maybe we could move the event?
[12:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: When you have a LARGE .. let's say 500 line script, that uses a lot of those functions, there is a noticeable difference between mine and stock
[12:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL
[12:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I've asked a couple of questions and no response yet.
[12:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: george just landed on my sim
[12:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL
[12:51] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: it seems the sessions got more constructive lately
[12:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: err grid
[12:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, 500 lines is not large. I have a script file that is 3,000 lines long.
[12:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so do I
[12:52] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but around 500 is wher I start noticing a difference
[12:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, good.  :)
[12:53] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Ubit knows about my script timings
[12:53] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: lol
[12:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, ok. I can talk about them with him next time he is showing signs of life in IRC
[12:53] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I mainly started doing them to speed up vehicle scripts
[12:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Did you notice the script runtime numbers go up, down, or stay the same?
[12:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and as Ubit has driven my vehicles , badly I may say, he has seen it ..
[12:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the runtime numbers bounce more
[12:54] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[12:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but not any higher than I would say is normal
[12:54] Andrew Hellershanks: On average are they about the same as before your changes?
[12:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: correct
[12:54] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[12:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah. Mel has started answering my comments
[12:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: You are welcome to come over and see for yourself at any time ..
[12:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Ubit has been using me for a crash test dummy for a while ...
[12:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Mel said the defaults will remain the same as SL. They can be changed if someone wants to change them.
[12:56] Andrew Hellershanks: They are settable.
[12:57] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they are not settable .. LOL .. unless you mod the code before compiling
[12:57] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002 smells a new ini-file...
[12:57] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yep
[12:57] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Delays.ini
[12:57] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: what I was gonna say
[12:58] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and they are "protected" settings in the code, so don't think they are open at current to being changed via an ini
[12:58] Andrew Hellershanks: She said people who change the delays open them up to all kinds of overall performance issues even if it makes their pet script run faster. The script delays are there in order to make it impossible for one script to get all the sim's power or to guard the central services from flooding.
[12:59] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hogwash , what is she running on a 286
[12:59] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL
[12:59] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P
[12:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure if she meant settable by ini file or just that they were pulled out to near the top of the file.
[12:59] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I have sims with 3000+ scripts and yet to overload a sim
[13:00] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I can understand her point, but at the same time, let's grow up some ..
[13:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Sure. np when you are using a single well behaved script. What happens when someone puts one of those in a loop.
[13:00] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I screw up and put scripts in loops all the time .. who hasn't , they are lying
[13:01] Andrew Hellershanks: The os function to read a notecard can cause problems with the asset server.
[13:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: then fix the asset server, don't limit the function
[13:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL
[13:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P
[13:02] Andrew Hellershanks: If you know more than Mel go ahead and tell her that.
[13:02] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I guess I agree with some that say , we need to quit taking our example from SL and pass them by
[13:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm just passing along some of what she is telling me and she knows how the OpenSim code works.
[13:02] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I am not going to say I know MORE than Mel, not gonna say I'm stupid either ...
[13:03] Andrew Hellershanks: If you think it is safe to reduce limits you can try persuading her it is safe to do so. I think she will simply say it isn't.
[13:03] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: But some people get stuck in a rut, and it happens to devs too ...
[13:03] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Also some people just hate for ideas to come from outside themselves
[13:03] Andrew Hellershanks: The defaults are also set to keep your average person using the code "safe".
[13:04] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Not worth the argument
[13:04] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I have a patch I apply before compiling
[13:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Whatever.
[13:04] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: does me fine
[13:04] Andrew Hellershanks: You need to discuss it with Melanie.
[13:05] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: leading to situations where someone opens the gates of hades by setting the threat-level to severe
[13:05] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yeah
[13:05] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: you can shoot yourself in the foot
[13:06] Andrew Hellershanks: We can't prevent people from shotting themself in the foot.
[13:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I am fine with protecting the masses, as long as it does not force people to use it the way other people want
[13:06] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[13:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: beauty of opensource code
[13:06] Andrew Hellershanks: yup
[13:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I would never fork OS because I love it the way it is, but I'll throw in my .02 at times
[13:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL
[13:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'm just personally patch happy, and I can live with that .. I don't like something, I know I can change it ..
[13:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Melanie has explained why the reading notecard function can kill things. I don't want to paste all that info here. I can IM it to you and you can feel free to disagree with Mel.
[13:08] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: well, but OTOH: those who run really time critical services or scrpts can edit the source code... - the average Jon Doe won't need some of those timing optimizations
[13:08] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: the OSGetNotecard maybe, but not the timings
[13:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I agree Sheera , but maybe it should be an ini setting
[13:11] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: maybe it would benefit the users more if we could tell them how to optimize their network settings
[13:11] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I heard Debians handling of network traffic would be anemic...
[13:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes it is
[13:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I posted the info at the last meeting I think
[13:12] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: there are quite some variables in /proc/sys/net one could tamper with^^
[13:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: /etc/sysctl.conf
[13:12] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: sure :-)
[13:12] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I even looked up some of them already
[13:13] Andrew Hellershanks: There are a lot of settings that can be adjusted on servers. Just another case of settings being certain values for the average use case I suspect.
[13:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: let me grab mine again real quick
[13:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: chat spam incoming
[13:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: net.core.wmem_max=12582912
net.core.rmem_max=12582912
net.ipv4.tcp_rmem= 10240 87380 12582912
net.ipv4.tcp_wmem= 10240 87380 12582912
net.ipv4.tcp_window_scaling = 1
net.ipv4.tcp_timestamps = 1
net.ipv4.tcp_sack = 1
net.core.netdev_max_backlog = 5000
net.ipv4.tcp_keepalive_time = 3600
net.ipv4.tcp_keepalive_intvl=150
net.ipv4.tcp_retries2=90
net.ipv4.tcp_syn_retries=30
net.ipv4.tcp_tw_reuse=1
net.core.somaxconn=5000
net.ipv4.tcp_max_syn_backlog=2048
net.ipv4.udp_mem = 10240 87380 12582912
net.ipv4.udp_rmem_min = 32768
net.ipv4.udp_wmem_min = 32768

fs.inotify.max_user_watches=524288
fs.inotify.max_user_watches=52428800
[13:14] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: wouldn't a tutorial on that be of help and the impact maybe really noticeable?
[13:15] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: ty, I'll compare them to my settings on CentOS - I'm rather fond of that one as it is quite stable although it is seldom challenged ...
[13:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Put it in a wiki page?
[13:15] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: might be a good idea...
[13:16] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be good to have an idea of the impact those settings may have on a machine and the network traffic.
[13:16] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: along with some recommendations regarding mono-version and -settings
[13:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Well that will wrap up this weeks meeting.
[13:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Those network settings might improve the throughput of the network as long as it doesn't choke the CPU.

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