Chat log from the meeting on 2016-06-07

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[11:03] Kayaker Magic: Has there been any work on the crossing issue?
[11:04] Gavin.Hird after I took a patch that named a thread correctly things shaped up quite a bit
[11:04] George Equus: Well. suppose but I don't really know if that issue has been addressed specifically or if it is a "side effect" from some other change
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: How often does the release of the 0.9 OSgrid kit happen?
[11:05] Gavin.Hird but mind you I dont run with smarthreadpool
[11:05] Gavin.Hird only with threads and let mono handle it
[11:05] Gavin.Hird works great
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Hmm, another configuration I should test...
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I don't think crossing has been addressed specifically in the past week.
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: Mono on Linux?
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: I guess mono always means Linux...
[11:06] Gavin.Hird I tested them all and ended up with thread
[11:06] Gavin.Hird mono on OS X
[11:06] George Equus: I run plain vanilla on Win 7 with a few Win optimization done in Opensim.ini
[11:07] Gavin.Hird it has worked great since mono 3.10
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: Ha! I forgot OX X is Unix!
[11:07] Gavin.Hird before that it was unstable
[11:07] George Equus: Mono is used when there is no .NET right?
[11:07] George Equus: Never used Linux
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I think OSX is more a BSD version of *nix
[11:07] Gavin.Hird although Microsoft tried to push on me their .NET for OS X the other day :-O
[11:08] George Equus: Grab it!! it's free!!  :) lol
[11:08] Gavin.Hird it is fully certified UNIX in line with Solaris and AIX
[11:08] Gavin.Hird with a BSD subsystem
[11:08] George Equus: Grab win 10 as well an absolute MUST have - IMPERATIVE.... sigh...
[11:08] Gavin.Hird Free like Win 10?
[11:09] Gavin.Hird it will probably insert ads into the application
[11:09] George Equus: I keep clear of it
[11:10] George Equus: got my setup, works flawlessly and do what I demand of it
[11:10] Gavin.Hird glad to hear
[11:11] George Equus: production system on a very hacked Win.8 Update Pro setup and server on standard Win 7 "SP2" Pro
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Andrew, Gavin says he applied some patch to fix a thread name problem, How do I find out if that patch is in the current release of OSgrid on the download page?
[11:11] Gavin.Hird are you aware of this mantis Kayaker?
[11:12] Gavin.Hird If you pull the latest master it should be there
[11:12] Gavin.Hird this is the commit:
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, see commit #97a471cb. It was commited on May 5.
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: George, which version of mono are you using?
[11:15] George Equus: I am on Windows Andrew
[11:15] George Equus: .NET Framework
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: Hmm, if I had seen 7802 I wouldn't have worked so hard to collect data for 7862
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: I will retest with the latest download, see what happens.
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: George, sorry. I should have directed that at Gavin.
[11:16] Gavin.Hird version of mono?
[11:16] Gavin.Hird
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, yes.
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: This inability to walk across some borders is a total KILLER and made 0.9 totaly unusable.
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, ty. Good to know which version is working well for someone. So many versions of mono in the 4.x line seem to be broken in some way.
[11:18] George Equus: Sure Andrew  :)
[11:18] Gavin.Hird after that thread patch I have not had to restart the simulators once
[11:18] Gavin.Hird before that it ran into all kinds of issues with hypergrid
[11:20] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim Dev bcee4e3: 2016-05-23 19:33:36 +0200 (Unix/Mono)
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Are you downloading code from the git repo or are you using a tarball on the osgrid web page?
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: tarball
[11:20] Gavin.Hird but not connected to OSGrid?
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Yes connected
[11:21] Gavin.Hird right
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker: ok. To answer your earlier question, sort of, I don't know how often the tarball on the osgrid page is being updated.
[11:21] Gavin.Hird latest one is from 05-23-2016
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: My last copy is older than that, I will retest with the latest one.
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. There have not been a lot of changes since then but there has been some.
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Gavin, do you do all your building/testing in a unix box?
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: (Justin used the MicroSoft visual dev kit)
[11:24] George Equus: afk back in 15 min...
[11:24] Gavin.Hird I am running the patch that was submitted for this mantis and parcel crossings now sends updates to the viewer as they should
[11:24] Gavin.Hird since OS X is Unix, the answer is yes
[11:25] Kayaker Magic: I'm looking for a mentor, someone to walk me through compiling OpenSim, you available some time?
[11:26] Gavin.Hird sure
[11:26] Gavin.Hird it is actually quite easy
[11:26] Gavin.Hird once you have mono installed
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Not all that much to it. You just need the compiler tools.
[11:26] Kayaker Magic: Things are crazy for me in RL right now, leaving on a trip in a week, probably won't have time until I get back in July
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: yup. Once you have mono, ./, then xbuild
[11:27] Gavin.Hird you get the tarball / or code from the repro, run ./ and then xbuild
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: Who builds those tarballs for the OSgrid web page?
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, when installing mono it is simpler to just go ahead and install the mono-complete package.
[11:28] Kayaker Magic: I think I have that complete package....
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I would hazard a guess that Dan Banner does but I don't know for sure. I don't talk to the people running osgrid very often.
[11:29] Billy.Bradshaw I play around with the latest monos, that is how I have fun :)
Just a heads up on mono dev, there is an issue that prevents Opensim closing threads on shutdown
Made some changes to rectify the situation and currently testing
I know this is a future thing, just letting people know should they venture into that area.
[11:30] Gavin.Hird Billy do you know if that is an issue with smarthreadpool?
[11:31] Gavin.Hird I have not seen that issue since mono 3.8-ish
[11:31] Billy.Bradshaw Smartthreadpool is a third party addon
[11:31] Billy.Bradshaw Somewhat dated now
[11:32] Gavin.Hird but still used by most OpenSim installations
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: It is a default in the OpenSimDefaults.ini file.
[11:32] Billy.Bradshaw I switch it off, though I would not know the consequences on a large grid, it works well without on my test grids
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: That file suggests there is better performance in Windows using a different setting.
[11:33] Kayaker Magic: Gavin: You are saying that smartthreadpool is no longer needed? That mono manages the treads well enough?
[11:34] Gavin.Hird it probably is depending on the mono implementation, but thread has worked better for me
[11:34] Gavin.Hird more responsive and at times is fires up a large number of threads when it needs it - such as starting ODE/ubODE
[11:35] Billy.Bradshaw With Microsoft opensource of dot net, the later mono uses Microsoft libraries
[11:35] Gavin.Hird when starting some of the regions it spawns close to 2000 threads and the 8 cores are running 780% mono
[11:36] Kayaker Magic: whoa!
[11:37] Gavin.Hird fans are going full tilt, haha
[11:37] Robert Adams: lots of scripts
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: ouch
[11:37] Kayaker Magic: This last winter I heated my office almost exclusively with my PC
[11:38] Robert Adams: there is a way of limiting threads used by Mono (at least used to be)
[11:39] Gavin.Hird When I worked for IBM they heated the entire office complex with the heat from the mainframes (water cooled). With a new generation of processors they had to install boilers
[11:40] Robert Adams: all the variables with threads and types of thread schedulers and different runtimes... there are just too many to keep in my head
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, how is your work on physics engines progressing?
[11:42] Gavin.Hird I run it with thread configured in opensim.ini, no variables set for mono, but since it spawns so many threads when generating physics with ODE / ubODE I had to set the number of allowed open files per process to lager than 2500
[11:42] Billy.Bradshaw Under what circumstances does scripts instantiate additional threads, 1 per script.. never truly profiled scripts.?
[11:44] Robert Adams: I don't remember... XEngine has a way of using up threads if there are timers in the scripts
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: Ah, the llSleep() "feature"
[11:45] Robert Adams: OS could use a better script engine
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: I believe it is 1 thread per running script with a default limit of 100 scripts
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: llSleep locks down the thread, so if too many scripts are sleeping, you run out.
[11:46] Robert Adams: as to BulletSim... I'm going to have time to devote to OS starting in a week or so but there are enough Mantis entries to keep me busy before getting around to BulletSim for a while
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: I mean a default limit of 100 threads in the pool for scripts.
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, there has been talk of replacing the script engine used in OS but that is a big project all of its own.
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: Robert: Mantis entries that are not related to bulletsim?
[11:46] Robert Adams: yes... a script engine would take a bunch of work
[11:47] Gavin.Hird they are porting the Phlox engine from Inworldz at the moment
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: They? Who?
[11:47] Billy.Bradshaw The kind of experiments I run benefits from a stable config, so I use the same region configs, some mesh and prim builds and around 50 assorted scripts. Need to look more closely.
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: There were a few parsing issues I have wanted to have a go at fixing. Just haven't had the time.
[11:47] Gavin.Hird there was a fund raiser for it
[11:47] Robert Adams: I want to get 0.9 working... that means fixing some varregion problems and the HG problems
[11:47] Billy.Bradshaw Any testing Robert, just shout
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: YAY!
[11:48] Kayaker Magic: Thank you Robert!
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, many people will thank you for that.
[11:48] Robert Adams: well, not promising miracles ::)
[11:49] vegaslon plutonian: just be nice to fix var regions back to the state you got them into before the merge
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been meaning to find out what is different about a var region besides its size.
[11:49] Robert Adams: The HG stuff especially... that has a lot of parts (OS code, compatibility with old versions, standalone vs Robust, viewer compatability, inventory protocols, etc, etc, etc)
[11:49] Billy.Bradshaw One good thing about HG is you can configure an entire grid for people to just experiment, without the politics that would go with a live full commercial grid
[11:50] Gavin.Hird in addition there is this repository on git
[11:50] Gavin.Hird but Melanie did not like it so it got shelved
[11:50] Billy.Bradshaw I have been testing that Gavin, I find it works well
[11:50] Gavin.Hird I tested it a bit myself and it looked good
[11:51] Robert Adams: Rev also did good things with a scripting engine in Aurora
[11:51] Billy.Bradshaw The guy keeps it updated to opensim dev/master so is current
[11:52] Robert Adams: when I have nothing else to do (ha!!) I'd like to merge all the good things from the different OS forks (Aurora, WhiteCore, ...)
[11:52] Billy.Bradshaw Yes Aurora has some nice features
[11:52] Gavin.Hird hehe
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, that would be a big job.
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: I tell people I have some spare time scheduled for 2027
[11:53] Robert Adams: very big
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder how many forks there are?
[11:53] Robert Adams: but first job is fixing 0.9 (for some definition of 'fix')
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds good.
[11:54] vegaslon plutonian: infinite regions are also interesting...
[11:54] Billy.Bradshaw I think Opensim debugging and development could be thought of in several sections, a) user experience. b) house keeping land management and backups and c) core, thread and communications management.. the later is where I spend most time
[11:54] Gavin.Hird Mantis 0007874 is a good staring point as it clears out a lot of annoyances
[11:57] Robert Adams: ya... have that on my 'monitoring' list
[11:58] Billy.Bradshaw Can be somewhat overwhelming grappling with the whole thing
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: That brings us to the top of the hour. Does anyone else have anything for this weeks meeting?
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Or anyone have anything else?
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:00] Robert Adams: Very overwhelming.... there are a lot of interacting parts in OS
[12:01] Gavin.Hird Lots of things happening over in the big walled garden
[12:01] Kayaker Magic: Oh?
[12:01] Gavin.Hird from July 15 viewer that dont have TLS 1.2 will not be able to do monetary transactions
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Which walled garden?
[12:01] Gavin.Hird SL
[12:01] George Equus: Hope you don't look too much on that ...
[12:02] Gavin.Hird since most of the viewer code comes from there I do…
[12:02] George Equus: they do a lot of stuff foreign to opensim ...
[12:03] Billy.Bradshaw Would be nice to invite viewer core devs here, hear what they have to say about the up and coming changes.
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: They should feel they need a special invite. They are welcome here any time.
[12:03] Billy.Bradshaw Anyone have any objections to an invite, I believe they do listen to IRC?
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: They should not.
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: darn typos
[12:04] Robert Adams: having a good relationship with the TPV developers would be good
[12:04] George Equus: Viewers.. yes. is that. On other hand, how productive is it working on a new viewer as long as the code here is still so relatively "messy".? I am a lay man mind you, just an observation
[12:04] Gavin.Hird a completely new viewer is a MAJOR undertaking
[12:04] Robert Adams: we could use a developer who has a handle on the viewer and could work with them to keep OS features working
[12:04] Gavin.Hird just to reimplement current functionality
[12:05] Gavin.Hird Robert we are working on a OpenSim version of Kokua
[12:05] Billy.Bradshaw Well lets just throw an invite and see what happens...
[12:05] Kayaker Magic: Offer them donuts
[12:05] Gavin.Hird because the depart from the SL code makes it very hard to maintain a combined viewer any more
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm already using Kokua with OpenSim
[12:06] George Equus: An opensim dedicated viewer would be good but would also need relatively tidy code for it to be based on? Or?
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure what you mean by "tidy code". There needs to be a well defined protocol between viewer and OpenSim.
[12:07] George Equus: Please don't break too much  :)
[12:07] Gavin.Hird absolutely Andrew
[12:07] George Equus: right now most seem to work rather good on a Windows installation,
[12:07] Billy.Bradshaw Again with HG you can configure a grid for testing without impacting on existing grids, I mean really hack the base infrastructure.
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Running viewers under Linux can be a problem. I often seem to have issues that other people don't who are using viewers under Windows.
[12:08] Billy.Bradshaw Proof and validation for different techniques
[12:08] George Equus: Even region crossing with aeroplane or boat works really good using ubODE right now, at least on my own regions.
[12:08] George Equus: First ever
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Playing streams, and voice chat are the most common areas where I have problems.
[12:09] Gavin.Hird We have done a rather large update of the voice code in Kokua, but it is still only in the test builds
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: If you have a stream playing in Singularity and the stream for the parcel changes it usually locks up the viewer.
[12:10] Gavin.Hird as far as we can test it now works identical to in SL on OpenSim
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I'm prepared to run test builds.
[12:10] Billy.Bradshaw nice Gavin
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, what issues do the voice code updates address?
[12:12] Gavin.Hird stability, login logout ability to test the microphone and voice output setup
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Cool. Some useful features.
[12:13] Gavin.Hird threading
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure where the voice chat settings are in Kokua. There isn't a separate tab for them.
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, are there alpha releases or nightly builds with the changes or do i have to compile from source?
[12:13] Kayaker Magic: Dumb question: If I have an older version of 0.9. running, which files do I have to replace to update? OpenSim.exe of course. Any other files? dlls?
[12:14] Gavin.Hird no, it is in Sound & Media
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I always update everything.
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, oh. So not in Preferences?
[12:14] Gavin.Hird there are builds at
[12:14] Gavin.Hird It is that tab in preferences
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I have no such tab in this version of Kokua
[12:15] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I was considering just creating new folders....
[12:15] Gavin.Hird the 4.0.5 builds will not really work on OpenSim
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I'm on Kokua 4.0.2
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. That will be a problem.
[12:16] Gavin.Hird so for OpenSim it is 4.0.2 builds
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I am not in SL that often and when I am I mostly use the viewer from LL.
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Too bad. I would have liked to test out the updates to voice chat.
[12:17] Gavin.Hird we'll separate it out to Bitbucket for those builds
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps some kind soul could backport the changes to 4.0.2 :)
[12:18] Gavin.Hird the OpenSim builds are called Kokua test 4.0.2 at the moment but it will be called Kokua OS and I am not sure where we landed on version numberings :-)
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: How soon is an OS version likely to be available for testing?
[12:18] Gavin.Hird the voice changes are in the 4.0.2 OpenSim builds
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, ok. I may just need to update.
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: This version of 4.0.2 is from April 3
[12:19] Gavin.Hird here is my repro:
[12:19] Gavin.Hird and Nicky's
[12:20] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim Dev bcee4e3: 2016-05-23 19:33:36 +0200 (Unix/Mono)
[12:20] Kayaker Magic: Well thank you all, this meeting has been more hopefull than others!
[12:21] George Equus: Yes, sounded very positive I think
[12:21] Kayaker Magic: Off to re-install and test var crossings
[12:21] Gavin.Hird good luck!
[12:21] George Equus: cu Kayaker, Good luck  :)

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