[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andres
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: They say that, but at least with dylibs, it does run on older versions
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Andrew
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not sure if same is true with apps
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not building Firestorm of course
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's still building judging by how hot the thing is now
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm in the middle of an important business meeting. I am just popping in to say I don't know how much longer the meeting will run. Ubit will have to stand in my stead for now. I will join you if my RL meeting ends before this one.
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A new FS beta is out with the (???) names fix in there
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok Andrew
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TJ and I would appreciate some testing see if it somehow still shows up somewhere repeatedly
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: the one im running hates the lifeguard
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I tried to run one of the newer versions of FS but couldn't because it has library dependencies not available on my current desktop.
[11:07 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I was just getting it for Vincent, but the name kicked in after a minute
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel about code changes...
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: We completed the migration to OpenGL 4.1 and now working on makeing keyboard handling support standard macOS behavior
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: fixed a potencial stuck lock issue on map service...
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Going afk. I can never remember where they have hidden the away feature for the avatar. :P
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: and a few cosmetics
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: also liften the color picker out ot the GL view, as we will do with the rest of the UI
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus get rid of CEF
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: cef has been causing some issues apparently, though I been unable to reproduce
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a monstrosity
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: takes 3 days to compile
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Which reminds me, viewers like FS seem to download stuff on startup, which is a bit of a problem if they are used without network connection. I'm not sure why it needs those things each start
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It downloads some xml and a few other things
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: besides from the currently selected grid?
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I know why but they can explain themselves
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think script syntax and some libs as well
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats odd
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Kinda odd, but yeah it's just causing problems in lab setting when there is no net or their end is blocked by cloudbleeds screw ups
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would be interesting to have Claude decompile the libs and see what they actually do
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I could understand downloading their latest MOTD
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well the mini is still building and probably now thermal throttling given I almost burnt myself on it just now
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Fun stuff, not
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: should keep your coffee warm
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: just spay water on it
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: spray
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: well and yeah.. warm yr tea on it
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the RS/6000 machines had a code on the front panel which meeaning was "the CPU is on fire"
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 42C according to my infrared thermometer
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff my cpu is at 95
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: my GPU is 85
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We need to fundraise Ubit a new, not broken, cpu
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: damm intel
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Come to the dark side Ubit
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Rather than funding osg, which contributes nothing to development
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am pretty sure the mini CPU is closer to Ubits than anything else
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The last gen of Intel minis are pretty fast
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: well they let me run this region and 3 test ones on their machines
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How generous -.-
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: and was informed that will not have to pay for them, even under the new rules
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: are there new rules?
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh there was a meeting... I missed it
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: for those who missed the osg news... ppl will have to pay i usd per region/ month
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ha! how much?
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: except 1st region, it is 512m or less
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: region owners or everyone?
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: if it is larger than will need to pay
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: region owners
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but 2 standard regions will have to be paid for?
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeap 1 free, other 1usd per montg
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no wonder I have OSG squatters on my grid :-)
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( ofc you need to run the regions on yr harware as before )
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Never understood why ppl dont just get their own grid
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: who already have their hdwr
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause it's ten times the effort and responsibility to do that which once they realize or their stuff explodes they just nuke it, leaving the rest of the metaverse to deal with the fallout
[11:24 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: takes more effort to set up and maintain
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I still track what I can find of the metaverse through the grid_stats endpoint and such and for every new grid popping up two more go down
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Total mess
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And all that dead data clogs the pipes
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc Sl only costs $208 more
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( plus taxes )
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I charge 5 bucks for 48 regions for the self hosters, that's quite the pricing difference
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I found an OSG squatter today who had placed his build on a terrain textured megaprim so it could barely be outlined on a map tile
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: under, not on
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Surprised that didn't delete itself on some bounding box check
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll give him a + for creativity.
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: sim surrounds are notorious for that
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hosting others' sims is 95% of the headache in being a grid owner
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the region had build for all enabled, so that was my bad
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have a patch to config define the default region permission on newly created regions, maybe I should submit that huh
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I used to forget to change that as well and you normally can't through the console
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or list it
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I need to squash those commits down then I can submit those. Same for the agent hard limit, and however many other things that could be changed at runtime without issue
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: an admin map with all the parcel borders drawn and permissions and such marked per parcel would be great
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think mini-map can show all parcel borders
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Perms options would be very useful
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The parcel data is in the db as bitmap, which isn't easy to pull out, but drawing that out as parcel map is possible
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://blog.zetamex.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/parceloverlay.png
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it can but a larger map would be useful for an overview
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: mini map does how parcels
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: they call it "Show property lines" which is a little misleading
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I call it Shwo Parcel Borders on the mini map
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Show*
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That is a more sensible label
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Is on my agenda to see how much of that can be changed to de-linden FS, but when it comes to ui things it can be a massive pain cause so much of that is loaded even before you login anywhere, so making it grid aware is not easy
[11:39 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I keep forgetting that the OS version of FS can still connect to SL
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: removing SL code from my viewer build daily
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of. LL is looking to add a chat history service to retrieve the chat history from server rather than just storing it locally
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A huge privacy concern they apparently don't seem to have. Even offline im is not encrypted with anything at the moment
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sounds like a privacy issue, but probably fine if opt-in
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So their server archives all the chat without user consent?!
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure if or how they handle the consent, if it is opt in, just saw FS working on support for it
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I worry more about the storage requirements for all that knowing how much chat antisocial me has so someone ten times the chatterbox multiplied by user count....
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why not just go for an MS recall option righ awya. then you can search all the things you have done in SL
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[11:42 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: local chat only or private chat too?
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: nothing new.. many systems log chats ( discord etc )
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc more fun with EU laws etc
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since when did LL care about EU law?
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( assuming anyone in eu cares to look )
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This is not logging chat, it's a users perspective of chat, so it's multiplied all messages by users involved
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: LL will just add a bit to their TOS and nobody will care
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it was just server side logging that's not so bad, but you are exponentially creating more data the more users you have
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: needs to be grid side store
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 85 people dancig to DJs spouting emojis
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also it likely isn't encrypted, because if the idea is to retrieve from a different device there aren't many ways to create a key for decryption
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what might be more interesting is to save it encrypted on iCloud together with settings and such to sync between machiens
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: good lesson from ird...
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: My chat logs account for about 50mb, but I don't talk much, so social animals will have much more. Without compression that'll just fill storage up in no time on both ends
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: store NOTHING
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: made talks with police a lot simpler
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a privacy nightmare depending on jurisdiction. But this is typical. People screaming about privacy and then also being annoyed they can't read their history on a new device
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc things alot easier in year 2000
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is why it must be opt in
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: if you want that at opensim... go ask for a module, or a fork :p
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was about to ask. Yeah if it is opt in then unlikely to be supported, making a module, if the service itself follows the usual caps or http route should not be hard to create
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But the privacy implication alone is enough to not bother
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Persoannly I would not mind have it synced between machines, but not stored unencrypted or with encryption keys outside of my control
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only thing I could think of to encrypt it with is the user password, that should not change between devices and it is, normally, not known to the grid operator
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But that means keeping password history in case they change it
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: duhh then how whoul dtay sell if for ai training??
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Then re-encrypt the whole thing with the new password to avoid the constant lookback
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Huge hassle to encrypt that in an actual end-to-end way
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If the viewer sends it over unencrypted it's dead on arrival either way
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is done in iCloud quite nicely but of course that probalby only work for Mac users and Windows users with iCloud installed
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: wonder how heCloud would be
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It would mean the viewer fetching this at login, can't fetch only the chats you open as you'd have to store the password in memory during runtime, which is a big no no
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: More I think about this the more my head starts hurting
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have settings sync and iCloud passord login in the plans for my viewer. Opt-in of course
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh so you coukd have diff machines use same settings, chat logs etc?
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: good idea
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In theory, not in practice
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not scalable for everyone like it we are ponderting LL is doing
[11:57 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it will most likely be a feature of the new login screen rewrite that does not use OpenGL at all
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh iClaudius was a great series
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Downloading all logs on login would be... oof
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wonder how that works on supposed mobile viewers, download 2gb of chat logs and wonder why the phone is slow now
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is not how it works Vincent. iColoud does byte sync
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Not sure why they would have to download
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I mean for the viewer chat history
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: it works on discord
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: discord stores server side chat, not a local user copy
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would be a once off operation and then it is byte sync after
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: FS stores locally so maybe that won;t change, just have another copy server side
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so download not needed
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Then you'd have to store the encryption key during runtime if they use encryption for it, which is a no no if you don't want that to be exploited
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes and it only syncs the bytes changed
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Same thing as browser stealers taking your cookies
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then you can't ever use a Mac Vincent
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Talking about viewer not icloud
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well FS can store locall now if you opt in. That could remain the same, so no need to download anything new
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but all Mac apps use those same mechanisms to handle password if properly written
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You'd need to present a login form for each chat history you don't already have to send a request with encryption key or download it all on login, which then means login would either fail or need some different handling since all that data might take longer to fetch than the login has time for
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Time will tell what it looks like I suppose
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: well not a thing for opensim core
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: looking to clock...
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other opensim issue you want to talk abt before closing the meeting?
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have a local copy on your encrypted file system with the encryption key stored in special HW on the Mac, and you have max 10 attempts to decrypt the disk in very special cases.
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for the meeting!
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Our Call for Proposals for OSCC opens tomorrow, September 30 at https://conference.opensimulator.org/call-for-proposals/
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: have fun!
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: TC Lyr
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( pcs use TPblabla chips )
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: thanks, Cuga!
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( or some cpu thingy )
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll have Claude write one, haha
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Alright... I need to go RL...
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Have a great week!
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you too
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: ohh a papaer IClaudius and opensim
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun ppl hope to see you all next week
