[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What did Gavin do?
[11:02 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Soooo, this place is hard to find...
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: shouted
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, ok. :)
[11:03 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...but G'day all :-)
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and has twinkling stars
[11:03 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Going to relog. I'm seeing huge lag in scene loading and avatar movement
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: G'day, Mattt
[11:03 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Hey Lyr :-)
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the twinkling is just awesome :-))
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me cheers
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Matt, This site is mentioned in the web page. It shouldn't be too hard to find.
[11:04 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: It is. And the link is broken.
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Love a great night sky
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Anyway, glad that you made it.
[11:04 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I had to go to the welcome thingie and search the region name on the map once on osg.
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Much better
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Matt, where is the link you tried to use? If it is on the os.org site we can update it.
[11:05 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...but that's about to be the least of the problems for os as a distributed platform. Which is why I'm here :-)
[11:05 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: http://hg.osgrid.org/Dev%C2%A0Outreach
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... my cat was on my table looking at my monitor. She pawed at our local Dino as it passed by.
[11:06 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Until avtually standing on osg, fs relaibly returns "no regions found by that name" or some such.
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *chuckles*
[11:06 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: actually*, also
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Matt, ok, thanks. I'll check it out and have a word with Dan about it.
[11:06 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: :-)
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Ubit was having Internet issues
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not even sure why they are links in the first place, I'll edit the wiki later
[11:07 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Haha. And apparently bake issues too. But I don't need working ears here / now :-)
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I see ears on you
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: try doing a rebake
[11:08 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Me too. But my rl ones are less grey :p
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Set the wrong temperature on the oven? ;)
[11:09 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Haha... I'm soooo good in the kitchen. Talented cook too ;-)
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: rebaked, but no difference to me, still good color
[11:09 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I burn water
[11:09 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes, I think it's fixered now (after rebake).
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Love to cook
[11:10 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Soooo enjoyes some fried eggplant this week...
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Everyone looks good here.
[11:10 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: enjoyed*, dammit
[11:10 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Haha
[11:12 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Seeing as there's so much conversation right now, mind if I briefly interrupt?
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: You aren't interrupting. Go head, Matt.
[11:14 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I'm here to show support. And because perhaps I could have been here well before now.... But now I'm super concerned...
[11:14 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Basically, I'm seeing way too much usage of ai to fork everything in ways that *will* very soon fracture os. Or, at least, hg.
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: where do you see forks?
[11:15 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm just using Claude to help document
[11:15 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I thought ngc was going to be a bit of a problem. But now wtg is *really* moving in a direction which will isolate.
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Many grids have their own fork of OS as they make changes unique to their grid.
[11:17 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Until this last month or so, I figured zeta was the only issue worth even thinking about, but none of our members really care about zeta anyways. I think most of the "eventers" have shifted from it anyways, as nobody could ever get to their thingies.
[11:18 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes, Andrew. I'm a "slight" fork. Basically still Core though, by design.
[11:18 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Are y'all hip to what Paul is up to right now?
[11:18 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Oops. I mean Lone Wolf :-)
[11:18 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: no
[11:19 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Ahhh
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I dont give half a care what he is doing. My feeling is, if grid owners want to screw up their own instance of OS with untested mods from AI, thats their problem
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: never heard about him
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: No.
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unlike the forks, I stick to mainline protocols and don't fiddle around with hypergrid interconnection. It's up to the forks if they want to break connection to the hypergrid by becoming incompatible, not much we can do on the developer end
[11:19 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The name reminds me of someone I know over in SL.
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I agree with Cuga
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ouch. That took me out.
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Wolf Territories
[11:20 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: He's re-coding the platform in rust. ANd is now dev'ing a custom viewer (as well as a web based one)/
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That's twice the dinosaur has walked right over me.
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have heard of that grid.
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rust - we had one of those before
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: It's love, Andrew
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Andrew you need to hold out a cracker
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, :)
[11:21 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: You guys have a pet dinosaur
[11:21 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I fundamentally agree too (with what Cuga said). But this is going to lead to a *major* fracturing.
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Claude please recode opensim in Rust for me
[11:21 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins at Gavin
[11:22 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Claude: Oh, I've already done that for another grid that's about to be stanadalone. Here's the code you wanted :-)
[11:22 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: What are your thoughts on it, Mattt?
[11:22 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That is going to be a lot of work to recode OS in to Rust. Did Lone say why they are recoding it?
[11:22 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ha. Only about 2 million lines of C# to rewrite, a dozen inter-process protocols to re-implement, and then you get to tell Ubit his physics engine needs to come along for the ride. Should be done by Thursday.
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Half the forks out there are now half vibe coded, waiting to explode when the lack of compatibility or responsible development catches up. The forking is just a symptom of the fracturing that was already happening. The primary driving factor being that everyone has different ideas, which is kinda human nature
[11:22 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I have no tangible idea, Lyr :-(
[11:23 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I just know that I do not like it, and it's about to become a *huge* problem.
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not a huge problem for those using the standard code from repo
[11:23 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I do get that Vincent. ANd again, fundamentally agree.
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: let's see the thing run before we start to worry
[11:24 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Or Wolf territories will be a separate virtual world community an not hypergrid-enabled
[11:24 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: (point of order - Claude is one of my alts. I'm just copy/pasting)
[11:24 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes Cuga. All three of us.
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most people are blissfully unaware of how the hypergrid operates and how good stewardship actually looks like, but I have been beating that drum for a decade to no avail. Changing basic human nature isn't easy
[11:24 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Lyr, that alone may be a problem. A great deal of the loves wtg. Crazy as it is...
[11:25 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: wtg?
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We can't stop anyone from doing what they want with the code. If they start changing the protocols used to communicate between grids they are causing their own problems.
[11:25 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: You haven't really, Vincent :-)
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause I don't engage with the toxicity of osw
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 100% Andrew
[11:25 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I may have missed something
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But there is plenty of resources out there and I have fired shots already to try to educate, which sometimes even took hold
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just for clarity, what is osw and wtg?
[11:26 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Wouldn't matter mate. Nobody can get to zeta anyways :p
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I never had problem reaching it
[11:26 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it is not surprising to see development efforts using AI tools and that reflect on the future of virtual worlds.
[11:27 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm on zeta now
[11:27 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: opensimworld but wtg I do not know
[11:27 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Up until now, I haven't minded that dg exists. At least it's more hg enabled mv grids.
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oh is that Wolf Grid?
[11:27 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes worf territories grid... good *grins*
[11:27 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Jagga, try getting to zeta from another grid login session ;-)
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I do that all the time
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Are you just here to spread toxicity then? ZetaWorlds has a system to remove users from grids that cannot be verified because of what all the dead data does to the hypergrid among other things, wt for example isn't blocked, neither is osg
[11:28 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: From one other grid, I'd wager. See above :-)
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Same if I go there
[11:28 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: avi is
[11:28 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...but that's not the point anyways, and I've "no truck" with zeta or Vincent <3
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Matt, I suggest getting a new avatar on a different grid like amv and checking if you haver the same problems
[11:29 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Hahahaha... like amv?
[11:29 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Oh my...
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or wherever
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what do you mean by another grid login session?
[11:29 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Doesn't matter Gavin. I did not at all mean for that to be the (or any) point :-)
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I just have not seen the problems you describe, using standard OS installations
[11:30 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Zeta will always be what it is. I get why Vincent does it, and it's really no issue anyways.
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If Ubit was here he'd likely tell you same what Andrew said. Can't really change how people are and if they want to fork moving away from established protocols then the fracturing is on them
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unfortunately most don't really think about backwards compatibility, maintainability or interconnection via hypergrid
[11:31 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...until it affects *all* of us. There's no vacuum here, Vincent.Sylvester
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: move too far and they have to write their own viewers too
[11:31 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, that's it
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: What makes you believe the problem will affect all of us
[11:32 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Haha... autocomplete. Apologies :-)
[11:32 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: at some point, it is a new product with little in common for compatibility
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's been a problem for over a decade as some grids allow for name changes and over the years thousands of grids have popped up and vanished leaving mountains of dead data behind clogging up the hypergrid
[11:32 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Because I already had trouble getting here this morning (it's about 0430 here)/
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not even sure what you suggest Mattt
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OS Grid does have its own problems
[11:33 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...OInce wtg is done, half of that tangible population will be boxed into their login grid.
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: a new SL!
[11:33 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Gavin, I already said I have no suggestion. I'm here just to show basic support.
[11:33 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes!!!!
[11:33 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That would be little different than a grid that chooses to disable hypergrid.
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But again that's a people problem, code can't fix people, for I wish it could lemme tell you
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew, exactly
[11:33 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: That is *exactly* what I've been thinking / saying....
[11:34 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: It is good to know
[11:34 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: but creative freedom is a basic tenet
[11:34 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: When this comes to fruition, there will only be one grid to bother with. sl.
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why do you believe that?
[11:34 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...and... screw that (thought it best to use another word here)
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If half the tangible population want to stay in a closed grid, to me that is a big meh
[11:35 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Cuga, really?
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why do you think one grid isolating itself will affect others
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well hypergrid clashes with trusted platform or whatever they all call it, even if that doesn't necessarily hold much truth, but this trend into going nuts over the content is normal. Remember Zangrid
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if they want to move around they go for the software that supports it
[11:36 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I'm not talking about that, Vincent. ngc was always going to fail.
[11:36 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...Hell, even wtg abandoned it. But now look at what he's (wtg) doing.
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why do you think everyone will be effected by what one grid is doing
[11:37 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Because it's not just one grid. You must get out even less than I do, Cuga <3
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Grids pop up, grand ideas, lots of free stuff, development might happen, the morale police mode sets in, things shift towards alienating and eventually they poof into the void
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: has happened over and over
[11:37 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ngc?
[11:37 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: What makes this effort different, Mattt?
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rust
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sorry I forgot the /sarc
[11:38 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: 2026, Lyr. And ai :-/ With that said, I *love* ai, and am rather invested in it (commercially, etc).
[11:38 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: No Gavin. You were also spot on.
[11:38 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: thank you
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The annoying part is all the junk they leave behind with no care what it does to the rest and yeah you are right forks make that worse if the content starts being incompatible, but we had that before with aurora/whitecore
[11:39 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I do not code with ai. I've been around for longer than it has (and everyone who trained it). It really is shit at it.
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: If someone is using AI to recode a major project like Open SImulator in to another language I hope they have a good understanding of both C# and Rust. Rewriting something in Rust doesn't mean it will be bug free.
[11:40 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes, Andrew. And yet...
[11:40 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: :-)
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The person using an AI needs to understand the language well enough to know if the AI is providing usable code that is free of logic errors and is safe to use.
[11:41 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I kinda feel like I might be the only one here who ever peeks outta the window :-)
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Curious, why rerwrite it in the first place? Performance?
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Advocating only works for those that are open to be advocated at. When reading comprehension leaves the chat then you are out of luck anyways. Plenty of resources that aim to educate, even on the os wiki and the dreaded removal ZW is doing pointing to resources. Maybe a positive that so far 50% of those seem to be reading and understanding, but you'll always have some that want to swim in their own lane
[11:41 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow
[11:41 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Andrew, please write a blog post explainming that, and get *everyone* in the entire world(/s) to read it.
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When you have platforms like osw that do not moderate discussion and only very few if any on there really understand the whole system then there is bound to be misinformation and misguided virtue for platforms that are not actually moving things forward
[11:42 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: No, Cuga. Autonomy / ego.
[11:42 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes Vincent. That does compound the issue.
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, that is also one of my questions.
[11:43 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I just answered it ANdrew :-)
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Autonomy/ego as a reason to rewrite, as Matt said, will lead to it being a closed system
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not only the language Andrew, but the complexity of the overall package. I run into that all the time; there are aspects of the viewer code that is for all practical purposes black boxes, and the AI are not able to analyze the totality. It runs out of tokens way before. Same will be the case with opensim server
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: incompatible
[11:44 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Hey Cuga. Welcome to the conversation <3
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and that is the problem for the owner of the incompatible grid, not otherrs
[11:45 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: If I'd have realised, I'd have lead with that :-)
[11:45 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Matt, I'm not sure that is valid answer. Perhaps for some. There are already lots of discussions on the net about issues related to rewriting existing code bases in to Rust.
[11:45 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: I can't hold the entire OpenSim codebase in context at once. That's exactly why the documentation work matters.
[11:45 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: No, it winds up a problem for us all.
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: can you explain why
[11:46 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: It's one thing for my members to not be able to get to zeta. They really don't care. But when then they get to wtg... then *anywhere*, they may as well only be in sl.
[11:46 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Anthropic, Documentation is important. Particularly when the code base is large. My hats off to anyone working on documentation.
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats your karma for making the grid incompatible
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Yeah, we documented the 11 render paths that exist in the viewer and every time we bumped out head into token limits
[11:47 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Rust is still more a religion. Not really a tangible basis for serious software just yet.
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Negative press surrounding grids cutting things off, trapping users or whatever scam Sorin is engaged in these days, is generally bad for the entire platform. It impacts us in the sense that you, as properly setup grid, have to swim against the tide of misconception
[11:47 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: thanks
[11:47 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...but doesn't matter, as rust is not the issue.
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If users are not pleased they will find a different grid to use
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Fable 5.1 was eating $ for the analysis
[11:48 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, exactly.
[11:48 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Haha. Yeah... I keep forgetting folk actually pay money for the web searches ai actually is so far :p
[11:48 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sonnet is plenty powerful enough
[11:48 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Damn. I thought you were getting it, Cuga....
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I dont think anyone here is understanding you
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: as to why it affects others outside the offending grid
[11:49 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: When it's totally segmented, os is just a dumbass Blender with an ai plugin.
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Since you like taking shots at me: https://zetaworlds.com/faq#i-was-kicked https://zetaworlds.com/blog/view/grid-block-wt https://zetaworlds.com/blog/view/opensim-naming-standards https://blog.zetamex.com/posts/2020/02/the-informal-checklist-for-grid-owners/ https://blog.zetamex.com/posts/2019/12/why-dynamic-dns-is-not-for-grids/ https://blog.zetamex.com/posts/2021/11/drowning-in-garbage/ Plenty of resources are out there, but yeah hardly anyone reads them much less understand them. Blame it on my writing style if you want. What I do is a direct response to the fracturing and the problems people create by not understanding the implications of running a grid or yeah changing protocols in the software.
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Back when Google plus was still a thing Talla Adams used to run a group there and I think she once said about people trying to push in a certain direction for development to think about whether any given direction is worth leaving behind potentially everyone else
[11:50 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I've read all of that, Vincent. ANd even tried to comply (that was ironic, given I worked with a staff member of yours who is... not who they present as :-). I'm not taking shots. I field questions every week about "can't get to xeta".
[11:50 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: zeta*
[11:50 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: http://osimdev.org
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: What can become a much bigger problem is that the AI can generate a complete explorable scene that would take months to build in opensim in a matter of half an hour
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: also the auto generation of 3D contant can completely tank the business model of Linden Labs
[11:51 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes. And it probs looks great. But is still shit, and terribly problematic down the track.
[11:51 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I think that's already started, Gavin.
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why mention Zeta? The problem you are trying to describe you are saying affects everyone. Zeta is not everyone
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why does going-rogue coding affect others outside the offending grid? Forgive me, i don;t think I've heard the answer
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Considering that in large parts the development of forks aims to fix things that are already being considered is probably the biggest fracturing agent at the moment. I suppose we are not going the best job of conveying what goes into decisions made I admit
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: totally replace teh SL Marketplace with AI generated shit at $0.01 a pop
[11:52 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Oh, only that zeta allows harldy anyone access. But that's nothing to do with this subject, and is toit okay :-)
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins at Gavin's shout key
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I've never had issues reaching Zeta
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: stability, performance
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: More issues reaching OS grid =)
[11:53 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: aviworlds is blocked for a legitimate reason
[11:53 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I've never had trouble reaching osg, Cuga. Until this morning...
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I had trouble this morning, too
[11:54 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: osgrid has been having issues for a long time
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why?
[11:54 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: 'Cause osg :p
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Having trouble reaching some place could be for any number of reasons, some of which are outside the control of the target grid.
[11:54 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: too much inventory for starters
[11:55 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Since when has that been an issue vector?
[11:55 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: For performance, perhaps...
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't be anymore, they nuked all that
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Filling in for Ubit here, he'd rage even more, rightfully so I might add
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: my inventory got zapped
[11:56 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: haven't been there lately other than visits
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I log in for viewer testing only
[11:56 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I got my stuff off
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can lead a donkey to water... something something and then in drowned
[11:57 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...or dead from thirst, if the water is hosted on an unreachable grid :p
[11:57 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: example performance issue - I'm still a cloud. Claude can see me, I can see Claude
[11:57 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you always have system water
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Before we continue with this discussion, I was going to mention there has been some code commits this past week.
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: therefore, you exist, Jagga *winks*
[11:58 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I can see you too Jagga :-) You're having a local(ish) 'net tail issue :-)
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's a viewer thing Jagga, it loves to hiccup on rendering when doing hg
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: no one is a cloud to me
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can see you fine Jagga
[11:58 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: It's not viewer, Vincent. It's network.
[11:58 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: worse on OS grid
[11:58 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: But you knew that :-)
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Much like the ??? thing TJ has been trying to debug, when it reproduces randomly it's a pain to catch
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we have discovered some code paths in the http stack that will infinitely block a mesh from loading in a HG session, so working on it
[11:59 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: kewl
[11:59 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes, that is coked network too.
[11:59 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: shoked*
[11:59 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: choked*
[11:59 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Ughh
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Does this dead horse require more beating?
[12:00 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I type perfectly. Y'all just have sucky interwebs :p
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Before we forget since it's already noon. libgdiplus merged the fixes for the font rendering and have completed the tests now, so release is imminent. That leaves waiting for distros to adopt the change and provide the packages, but in the meantime it can be build from source
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats great news! That bug was around for a long time
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We had some commits this week to remove usage of .AsSpan since that no longer has a positive impact on code performance
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: .AssPan
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, that is good news. I will keep an eye on that as it is used in another project that often crashes due to libgdiplus.
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit also implemented a way for scripts to use infinite as valid number, though that is somewhat of a hack, but it'll work
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's on parsing so not that bad
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, I think there may be some other things still in the library in addition to font issues.
[12:02 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: When is that ever even a good idea, Vincent?
[12:02 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Nan is Nan for a very good reason...
[12:02 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: NaN*
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: was thinking same.. Im sure Ubit has an answer
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That also necessitated a change to how things compare cause Microslop keeps changing that so now that's handled directly through own culture compare
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, That explains the second commit.
[12:03 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Oh boy... So it's already a bad idea, and will conitue sliding...
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Matt do you have a better way
[12:04 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes.
[12:04 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Treat Nan as Nan.
[12:04 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I think it's been done before...
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm sure there was a reason behind it. Talk to Ubit
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: NaN is not the same as infinite.
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I welcome the control over things rather than depending on system dependencies for this, since there is big difference in how platforms handle certain tasks such as searching through files even. Moving to system dependency for sqlite is going to bite eventually, but trying to pin a version of that has been anything but easy
[12:04 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: How is it not, Andrew?
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It is just like LL used BOOL to hold values such as -2
[12:05 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Think of an infinite number, then tell me the number.
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Fortunately it looks like sqlite might enter some level of stable now having being overloaded like everyone with ai slop cve's
[12:05 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: 42
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:05 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Jagga. Correct. I owe you a beer <3
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That is to say the releases have slowed down and there aren't any large issues open now, so now just a matter of pulling it and building the libs
[12:06 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: (not infinite, but in the hands of an infinite improbabiltuy drive...)
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The answer to the universe and everything
[12:06 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Life*, the universe and everyting :-)
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In the meantime I have finally gotten some useful data from flotsam now, so debugging why that behaves erratic should take fruit soon
[12:07 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm working on the physics Probability Modulation field.
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't expect a solution any time soon though. There are some core issues to wrap my head around first
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out... take care everyone
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In SL news, apparently they now added a bunch more stuff to the game control things, so that'll be fun to figure out
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Vincent.
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ok, Cuga.
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for a great meeting
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me waves
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that will be awesome. Viewer running on Xbox next
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: rofl
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:09 PM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: great meeing. thanks for letting me stay
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: You are welcome any time, Anthropic.
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gotta 360 no-prim attach a giant willy to someone no doubt
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some of that seems to play into the mobile viewer nonsense
[12:10 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any last minute questions or comments?
[12:10 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Nobody cares about mobile viewers any more...
[12:10 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...only web based.
[12:11 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for a reason....
[12:11 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Am I *really* the only one here who so much as looks out the window>
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We are about 2 weeks out from our Call for Proposals for the OpenSimulator Community Conference, Andrew
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: BTW, there is is mention of an important meetings in osgrid on the 27th at 11am.
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: will let you know more next week
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, ty Lyr.
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that's right
[12:11 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Released a viewer version with twinkling stars in WindLight today
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: future of the grid
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great, Gavin!
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: The announcement did say the grid isn't closing. I am going to mark the event on my calendar and do my best to attend.
[12:12 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we figured out a way to do it very cheap with a shader
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, nice.
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing further for today I will bring this gathering to a close and go lick my wounds from having been trampled upon by the dinosaur. :)
[12:14 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
