[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: major issue with ai is to spot its haluciantions
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to keep an eye on it too and stop it from time to time
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: it does hide it very well
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I just got off a 2.25 hours work call. I haven't had time to have my lunch.
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: but well same as any junior human coder
[11:04 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, just assume it is always hallucinating and try to spot when it is saying something real.
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: who needs food andrew.. that is HI hallucination
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: well about last week code.. NO new bugs!!!
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: too hot for bugs
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That's always a good thing.
[11:05 AM] Joe Magarac: I'm just glad to see OSGrid back.
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: i just did accept to little PRs fixing a typoe
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: One of these years I will push the change I made a few years ago that fixes a bunch of typos. :)
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( typoe acording to pr author :) )
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Give it a couple weeks Joe xD
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It would be interesting to see if Claude could rewrite the postgresql code in opensim
[11:06 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I can ask
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: please
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: we have a opened/closed PR with tons and rivers of AI code
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: doing a lot of cosmetics
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: put Fable 5 to work on opensim and it will sure find cosmetics, haha
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried maintaining the postgres stuff as best I could, but I don't use it in prod so my testing is limited
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: well could not accept that... impossible to check all that
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Fable 5 is very expensive to run but it is what they use to find exploits in code.
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc it also added on same PR other changes like use of async/await i just do not want.. at least like that
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: PR need to be simple... focused on simple issue
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: like patchs on mantis ofc
[11:11 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh yes the Unkown. not sure if that caused any issues probably not but i guess it should be updated
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have given it clear tasks such as remove marketplace code from viewer. turned out to be very complicated
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc i did not like when Justin did refuxe my first full version of ubode, either :)
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( and replacing ODE.. not as a extra )
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: so yeah ... been there.. :)
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even just trying to remove the "Linden" name from certain things like parcel category is a major task if you want compat to SL
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Justin... 10 years ago?
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So many parts load way before it knows what grid you are on so it is extra effort
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: that commit guess more...
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: 15yrs mb
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: imagine that
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: was even before redoing it for Aurora
[11:13 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: Linden is hard coded in Firestorm too, they could change that i think since they have OS specific version
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when was opensim first launched as in working? My OSG avatar was created in 2008
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: that unknown was on a username compare
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: one of those
[11:14 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I have to keep reminding someone who files bug reports that it is one issue per report. Same thing with code changes. One code commit per issue. Some people tend to forget that.
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: so typoe ?
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: well we had one big PR adding beup physics module
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess there can be some exceptions..
[11:15 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: beup?
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc i will take years reading it bf commit
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it better?
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: but no idea why author closed the PR and even asked to delete it all
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: no idea if any better
[11:16 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: We get mantis submissions like "here os my patch to fix X" where X was never broken and there was no mantis bug about X
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No doubt some vibe coding involved there
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: well getting worse with AI
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: politicians like to fix things that are not broken
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: some paths may be done by ppl that have no idea abotu code.. just ask AI
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: bepu is next to jolt one of the physics engines I looked at for having c# bindings or in case of bepu straight being c# code, so easier to implement and debug
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: patchs..
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is not bindinds.. it is full c#
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think best way to put the policy for pull requests is concise changes, one problem -> solution in only as many commits as necessary, mantis patches preferred
[11:18 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: works for me
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That is the best way, Vincent.
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: alicia used it on here galaxy project
[11:19 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: sorry if those to PR's were done incorrectly
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't heard mention of that project in some time.
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: did like it a lot and did tease me to also add it
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab. I have one of my cats either wanting attention or they want lunch.
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: the unkown could had been just one
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: lol
[11:20 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: there's one sitting on my foot
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: oops i mistyped it again
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Edgar Allen Typoe lol
[11:20 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: dino alert
[11:21 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: well that was just me being lazy i edited in gh directly :)
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: a prob with beup is the math lib
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: it uses .net vectors etc
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: we use libopenmetaverse
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: thats damm useless copies all the time
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( bullet and old old also did copies.. on ubode i just tell C to use same memory layout )
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So custom bepu version with libomv base?
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: that s 2 deep in code
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it open source?
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: and sadly ms code now is faster
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc they add things about it on compilers and jit
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: so jit does optimizations on it, that does not do with our code
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: like sse in registers optimizations etc
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: inline code blabla
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: we get tons and tones of copies
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So just gotta punch it some more, beat it into submission
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: but our code is still a tiny bit better than ms one
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc we have libomv math,, bc ms had none
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: and original was a total disaster
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: now that finally have it usable.. and as i said does get optimized
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: so yeah. another open problem
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how much work to make a switch?
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: contou how many times we have Vector3 and quaternion in code :)
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: count...
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is what Claude calls mechanical work, and is good at without screwing up
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: well this part of a nonsense C# thing
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: we can-t make code as that runs as fast as ms code
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc ms totally bypasses c# and replaces it by c code on the fly
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( i mean c made native code )
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: on that c# likes like a damm script languafe
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: the code in
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://github.com/dotnet/dotnet/blob/b0f34d51fccc69fd334253924abd8d6853fad7aa/src/runtime/src/libraries/System.Private.CoreLib/src/System/Numerics/Vector3.cs
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: for example.. is ignored
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: or mostly
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: [Intrinsic] public Vector3(ReadOnlySpan<float> values)
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: that [Intrinsic] tells JIT there is a native code replacement it should use instead
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: well boring useless details
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: that jsut making coding frustrating
[11:34 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: CreateUser() in UserAccountServicesConnector.cs: sendData["Email"] = first;
[11:34 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: is that a feature or bug?
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: so Gavin.Hird viewer is getting AI bost.. and youes Joe?
[11:35 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga sounds like a bug to me, Jagga.
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure it is a boost yet, but removed a bunch of useless code that ran + fixed a lot of stupid bugs, some long standing
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: less work on region and parcel crossings
[11:37 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, context matters. I found the line. If you are talking about line 349 it does that if there is no email address.
[11:38 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ah, ok
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: After last weeks fix to the inventory access module so far have not seen a log entry saying it had to retry or failed to update assets for inventory items, so that looks positive
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Though I did just get a report claiming thousands of inventory items missing, but I can't concur based on what's in the database
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The voodoo strikes again
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: O.o
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: just fixed that jagga ty
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We may have an mantis on that even
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Or I'm confused again
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeack
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I haven't been keeping up cleaning that cause the box is so slow
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Another thing I will test with Claude is generating missing UI for languages and machine translation from the english version
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Removal of primfeed would be useful since that makes unnecessary http requests
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh speaking of translations, a custom endpoint for the in-viewer translations based on some jsonrpc or something similar to the azure one, cause that'd be easy to hook up to any LLM for translations
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok, will keep that in mind
[11:47 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me smiles at Gavin
[11:47 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: great to see you
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did try sticking translations into the server side and that kind of works, but if it is built into the viewer it's ten times easier to use :D
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The chat module is kind of a mess
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would probably have to handle user authentication to the LLM because they have stopped giving stuff away for free the minute there is a tad of volume
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless you can tap into system level translation for OS-es that provides it
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The existing azure one doesn't seem to really do auth either, at least I could just get that hooked up to a fake endpoint that just happens to send the correct response. Wouldn't hook that up directly to one either, put a cache in between so as to not translate "hi" fifty times over
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok :-)
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you ever get to that let me know, I'll give you the whole rundown :)
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then of course there is give the avatar an prompt; generate Twin cities in this sim and it fills it with mesh
[11:51 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: yes i think the translator balls will break eventually since they use an unauthorized translator in google chrome :)
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And then it hallucinates stacking Chicago on top of itself... you said twin... xD
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: textured mesh that is
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thankfully the simulator will crash before the AI does
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of llm. libgdiplus got a potential fix submitted via llm assisted code, which winehq cannot accept as they have a zero vibe code policy so now that potential fix to the font rendering is in limbo until some non-ai submission can fix it instead
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can't you reverse engineer the AI fix and submit it?
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Probably, but it's like just ten or so lines that changed, not really much in the way of another way of doing that so ending up with identical code is quite possible
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Where was the fix posted? I'd like to test the change.
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I gave you the link in discord Andrew
[11:55 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: ai can speed things up but trusting the is risky. claude will happily give you code vulnerable to sql injection attacks
[11:56 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: for example
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. Been busy with work. I'll have a look later.
[11:56 AM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting. Thanks.
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: 0k, Joe. Thanks for stopping by.
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Verdict still out whether the fix works, that needs testing first, maybe I'll get around to that tonight
[11:57 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: That is part of their business model: they give you vulnerable code and have to use the very expensive Fable 5 to find and fix it.
[11:57 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: hehe
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a program that uses libgdiplus that usually crashes because of the library. It would be a good test.
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It should, if it really fixes it, also pass that font library test that fails currently
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If that works I'll stick the binary into a region and see
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We could possibly ship it along then, though I'd prefer it be fixed in mainline repos so other apps work again as well
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It famously broke keepass font rendering since they use a custom font to better show characters
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: has anyone written the libgdplus people to ask them to fix it
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That is winehq now, they basically took it over for the most part as the original maintainers sort of stuck in limbo
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if it is a ten line fix, did they even need ai to fix it?
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The way it was fixed to me looks like a if changed reload kinda deal so probably not
[12:01 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: they would be like 'come back to mono' hehe
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm not even sure that's a fix and not just bandaid
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All the distros seem to list different folks as maintainers for it so not sure where the code even comes from or who is involved as it doesn't show names
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hmmm
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All because the org behind technically still exists, but everyone got assigned elsewhere so the chairs are empty
[12:03 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: might find something 'better' than libddiplus
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: After ms gutted the thing
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I would be happy if it reduces the amount of time a program crashes due to that library.
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It might if fonts are involved somewhere, but other than that I don't think they made many changes. They only care about libgdiplus in their usecase with wine so unless that breaks general fixes are deferred to pull requests like that
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The only alternative to system drawing is skia, but that lacks a number of things and would mean architecture changes in libomv for warp3d and the like as a lot of stuff depends on it
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's a lot of work
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And a mess
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: are we eying any release soon?
[12:07 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: there is a replacement managed.system.drawing that might be something will look at it
[12:08 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: nope looks like the pulled their gh and went to paid version maybe
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: so far libgdi works
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: except on some fonts thing
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me smiles
[12:09 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: More documentation at http://osimdev.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page . Yes, Claude “helped” but there was a lot of swearing involved. One innovation is “walkthroughs” tracing the code, connectors and db from end to end.
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I found the link and have the changes. Just need to apply it and rebuild. The program I will use to test uses some odd ball fonts.
[12:12 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am afraid it is that time. It was good to see you all and I will keep plugging as I have time
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, Good to see you again.
[12:12 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Good to see you Gavin, have fun :)
[12:12 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers
[12:12 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: bye Gavin
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: It is almost time to wrap up todays meeting. Any last minute items?
[12:13 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: i got fs running on steamos/Fedora atomic if anyone cares about that
[12:13 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: so it works on CloudDesk
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:13 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: which is much cheaper than Shadow PC
[12:14 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: CloudDeck sry typo
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: you mean typeo ?
[12:14 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: hehe
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: /me runs and hides
[12:14 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: sorry
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:14 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: typö
[12:14 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: i changed it on the PR but missed it originally
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: im just teasing :)
[12:15 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[12:15 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me grins and nods
[12:15 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: working and lurking here
[12:15 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: typó
[12:15 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me chuckles
[12:15 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol
[12:16 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out, have a great weeke everybody
[12:16 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: see ya, Cuga
[12:16 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: i will see about getting it in Steam / Valve store so people can more easily load opensim viewer
[12:16 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: which could expand user base i guess
[12:16 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: great
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok ppl RL calls
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: see you all next week, if not before :)
