[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, I'm still not quite used to you sitting on that side of the bar.
[11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles
[11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I know...
[11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: or skating on arrival
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: but I'm breaking boundaries and enjoying life
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: the view is great from every seat
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: FYI, I'm expecting a delivery. I may have to step away for a bit during the meeting.
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I hope that everyone is well and having a great week
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi everyone, and thanks Lyr... I've been busy building stuff
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great!
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Not much to report in regards to code changes this past week. There was just one.
[11:08 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: logging?
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Some extra checks for NULL pointers in the Profile code if I'm reading the change log entry correctly.
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: i did some testing with roberts voice code using janus-gatyeway
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: mnaged to add a hack so ims that makws im text chat to work
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: bad keyboard
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: hack so that im text chat does work
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds good. Not so good about the bad keyboard.
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: MB did add it to his repo
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: but it is a hack
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: amore complex solution is needed
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: also voice still not working.. also needs more hacking
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: issu is that ll made a little mess
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel not that new.. we just never did care and things worked
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is about multiuser im chats
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: that we never had, and we where fine
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: not when webrtc is active, viewers enforce it and the respective protocols and api
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: to there is chat members control. moderation etc
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: more or less liek groups. just groups use still another protocol
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh, I always wondered why we couldn't create a group chat. So it was just not impemented
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: so the hack was to mk viewer believe we care about the ims protocol :)
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i did not test groups
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: maybe voice on webrtc has diferent api also
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: i mean groups...
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OK, so the WebRTC plugin on MrBlue's github has been updated this weekend, and works better, sort of
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: err and protocol to region and grid. Ofc it has other on low level audio comes
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: comms
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel as i said just made it do p2p chat ims
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: local text chat also works?
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: never stopped working
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hmm ok
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact change was in a chat session creation
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: This is great news
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: normal chat is basicly has before via lludp
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..as..
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So the update works well enough to get us by without Vivox, in a pinch, until a more thorough implementation is made
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: just chat sessions wnat a centralized manegement
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel we need to hack for p2p voice also
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ofc we have no webrtc datachannels
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is ugly at least..
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That will be needed for spacial, correct?
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: no indication abotu who is talking.. intensity etc
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: no green volume above head
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact leave vocie rooms may be broken without that also
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: nothing is telling janus that one closed the session
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: at least the protocol has messages for that on the webrtc datachannel
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So that wouldn't be too hard to add, using that datachannel
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: that means adding code to janus..
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not to plugin?
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: changing the audiobridge plugin
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Might need to create a new plugin anyway for spacial
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( and yeah more fun compiling that crap for several linux flavors )
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and Mac lol
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: well does not compile on win
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: noit sure it will on macs either
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It does compile
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: possilbe even not on all linux
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Janus author is a Mac head, so the support page has detailed instructions
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: they use at least one lib that does very low level talk with kernel
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: major reason why does not compile on win... even under cyhwin
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: or cygwin
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh no whatever will we do, if only there was a way to run a small linux on another operating system in like a box... like some sort of... virtual... machine...
[11:34 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: wll there is also the 15ms time resolution .. but there are work arounds
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: well im testing on wsl
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: but cant ask ppl on stanalones on small grids to run wsl also
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't account for every use case though, they also don't have things like search or other external services. Can't even buy land without the land tool
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: think we have a hack for the buy
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: well may add robert code to master.. if he allows relicencing
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: excited to try it this week
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc freeswitch may still work doing vivox
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: with great telecom voice quality of late 70's
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: saldy viewers do a mess and we cant add cupport for both on a region
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: well with some other module...
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: with other webetc stack, we could even make vivox talk with webrtc
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( vivox again alaw/ulaw codecs )
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc we do not have the better quality one viewers support on vivox
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Having ad-hoc im groups would be nice to have, but needs hg support also
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: but well all viewers will be happy do delete vivox support if we get webrtc working
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc also forcing PBR on everyone..
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Have yet to see something that looks better with it
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Voice is a capabilities thing, vivox/webrtx can change as you HG TP around
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: server and viewer need to support both for a while, until Vivox pulls the plug
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: well grids like osg will have issues
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: you are suposed to open a im chat and tp around with it working
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: that may not happen on a grid like osg or HG
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Never fully worked
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: osg can-t have a central voice server
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc can-t control access to it
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: They can havean offsite service though
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: a normal grid can hide it behind firewall only letting local regions see it
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: janus has a user management system that can generate individual access keys and so on, it's a matter of setup
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: not that easy
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nothing ever is
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Janus server for a region doesn;t have to be on the same network
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: isue is on the grid side control
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: and janus control
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: same issue as assets
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: osg assets service is public
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Janus could be leased somewhere else. Doesn;t have to be same grid
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: yo are missing the point
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is about regions access control
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: we have none
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see. That is different from Vivox?
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: assets services on normal giurds are protected by their firewalls
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: dif is that with vivox you could have personal assount
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: and stiil talk with other users, even or other grids
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc vivos has a full user management
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: janus has.. nothing
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes it has that, it's just not enabled by default
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: well just a limits thing
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: limited..
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can create api keys with full access or you can tie it to a user management system and generate individual keys
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even restrict users to only be able to open sessions to each other as in per-region
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyways opengrid model like osgrdi is broken in many ways
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a matter of config
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: this will be just another detail
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is more than config
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: is extra arch
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You'd need to know the session id in order to insert yourself into a session and spy on anyone
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Still a lot of work to implement these details, but at least there is a path to doing it
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: and who you think creates session ids and passwds in current impl ?
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's on mb if he uses the admin calls rather than user ones
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( and needs access control also do to that )
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: nopes.. admin or user is the same problem
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe under that condition should not be merged then, because janus of course has controls for those things
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: no mahjor issue on normal grids
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: again bc janus is behiung firewals
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( no hg )
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If voice not supported across HG its not the end of the world
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said.. it is a problem identical to assets etc
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If everything else working I would consider it a win
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: on inventory etc
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: on grids like osg central services are all open to the world
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: By charter or by choice of tech?
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: regions should have access control
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: only reg regiosn should connect
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: to start..
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: but that is a useless thing for "normal"grids
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: so no one did anything about that
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: oc also not a issue on a grid where everything is free etc
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: jsut bandwith on a thing like janus may have extra costs
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: and the demand on cpu i bet will not be small
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's an admin problem, not a software one
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: duhh
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: if soft does not give thje tools... who do admins admin ??
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: how
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't account for all use cases, only the ones actually properly setup. Saving people from themselves is not the goal, that's too much work
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Stuff to worry about once it's working in the first place, then it can be made pretty
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: well thats a normal trap..
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: if you do not plan for pretty, it will never will be pretty
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It will be brittle at first, but at least working
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( look to you unplaned hair paint ) :p
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Implement a hack as proof of concept, then redo in pretty and proper until it works again
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: My biggest fear is that we poke so many critisicms at a rough implementation that it pisses off the developer and never gets finished
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. each region owner will need to get his own voice solution
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: at least local chat will work
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: ims.. may work in same cases.. not all
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: wel same for groups voice
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: hmm that will be veryu broken
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: can only see those working on a normal grid
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hopefully, things that don't work, just silently don't work without showstopper bugs
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: well for nowe we need a lot more .. just thinking ahead
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: liek datachannel...
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm so happy to see movement on this
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: From testing janus it also seems like it will behave quite well even with thousands of miles of cables for voice to travel through. Quality is certainly better than what vivox currently offers us
[12:11 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Next step, fixing the license
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok any other issue? rl is calling
[12:14 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: have a great day!
[12:14 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm off, too...take care! Many thanks to everyone for your wonderful support.
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thanks Ubit
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out too
[12:15 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok have fun, cya all next week if not before :)
