[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: /me shakes Ubit awake
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm having to type with a cat on my lap.
[11:08 AM] orbert tatham: One thing I have to say about Apple, they aren't afraid to give Micro$haft the finger - I have to say I appreciate that
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: While getting the finger from the EU
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:09 AM] Joe Magarac: is there significant MacOS usage in the Open Simulator community?
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you aks me the greed of all American tech companies needs to be curbed
[11:09 AM] orbert tatham: NO argument there
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You sound like nextcloud saying they'll replace teams and office while not even having working backups
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hard to quantify exactly Joe, as there are no central stats
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd say the spread of mac users client side is higher than the general market share of mac elsewhere
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Server side really linux makes the most sense for most applications unless you are drowning in spare mac machines
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just checking the git repo and see there was some activity this week.
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: there was a issue with alpha on prim text
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: the function used to get it in format color4 out of system.drawing color was made only for lludp
[11:14 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I noticed that one. Surprised me that the feature would have an undiscovered issue till now.
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: so it did invert the alpha value to improve changes ofr the zero encoder
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( so sold is 0 )
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: so solid is 0 )
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: happed that later that funtion was also used to get alpha for lsl
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It only showed when you used get to fetch the value out, which not a lot of people do since you usually just set prim text not fetch its parameters
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc giving wrong values
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: that was mantis 9205 btw
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile did change the zeroencoder for that color
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: to speed it up a bit
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: system drawing color is not a fast thing
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: better to just ask for it as integer and then do our own shitts
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: well boring details
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am rather surprised how heavy and complex that color cast is
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nice clean code now though :)
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel our code was not only doign that, as BYTe but also conveting them to floats ( on color4) and the back to bytes
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: bad
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wonder how many more of those things are hiding elsewhere, probably a few
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A problem for another day... or month
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: irritating the amount of code hidden on Color.R
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( relative speaking ofc )
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: one would expect just like return (byte) value >> 16 ;
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: of whatever the shit is
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: but vlaue is a complex all also
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc if we do set color using a predefined name, the value is not stored there
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: and another call is needed to get real value
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds messy
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: well reasons why dynamic textures are a heavy thing..
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: well we also have no good reason to store that as system.drawing color.. but whatever
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: c# and dotnet is really a crapy thing..
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: so.. whatever..
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rewrite in server side Swift - will only run on Linux though :-))
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm still trying to figure out how to track down the crashes in libgdiplus under Linux.
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: so yeah.. that was basicly last week coding.. basicly fix mantis 9205 and cosmetivs
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: looks like Windows too now
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://www.swift.org
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: swift is still a thing? :)
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Linux then Windows? If that was the case that is the opposite to the more common direction.
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: being constantly updated
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: whatver.. to make a new languague and ecosystem seems is still a nice PHD thesis... so we will keep getting more and more trash
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is
[11:31 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lots of people thinking they can build a better mousetrap.
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc nivia now tells that all that is now dead.. thing now are AI models
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: running on nvidia harsware ofc
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: hardware
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Anything to pay for more leather jackets
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh that little nvidia guy with his leather jacket?
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: hide our dino.. if he sees it he may want a jacket made of its skin
[11:33 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is the BBQ season....
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Snake leather would fit better with the snake oil they are pushing
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: python leather, cause these poor GPUs have to deal with all the AI research done in python
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( orbet i did answer to mantis 9206 )
[11:37 AM] orbert tatham: (thanks)
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc we have at least 2 groudp modules and that was on just one :)
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: well could had been on shared code, don't remember
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeha seems was on common code
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: got improvements on that regions impostors idea joe?
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: Back.
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: wb, Joe
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: Yes, progress on region impostors.
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: Question: if you can drive between two OS regions, do they have to have th same asset server?
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: as long viewers do it right
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewers need to use eash region asset server they get from caps
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: as old ll spec
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The regions are the asset servers, it doesn't hand off via the viewerasset cap. Technically the regions are likely to be connected to the same asset server, but also technically don't need to be
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: regiosn are not necessary assets servers
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Ubit
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said.. viewers should use what each region cap tells them
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: What happens when a vehicle is driven from one region to another, and a viewer in the new region sees it? Where does it get the inventory?
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewer has indpendent connections to each region
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: the child clients
[11:47 AM] Joe Magarac: But what if you drive far enough that the region seeing it has no connection to the region that rezzed it.
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: each connect has all set of caps urls etc
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: as you move around the region connectionsare updated
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't tell me you still want to use assets for these impostors?
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel you arinve to one, that tells viewers what regicons to connect on
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: and what regions to drop
[11:48 AM] Joe Magarac: Hm. Not understanding this.
[11:48 AM] Joe Magarac: I know how regions connect and disconnect.
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: so?
[11:49 AM] Joe Magarac: But what happens when you rez something in region A, and drive it to regions, B, C, D, E, and E is too far from A to talk?
[11:49 AM] Joe Magarac: How does E find the asset?
[11:49 AM] Joe Magarac: The asset isn't known to E.
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what do you mean too far to talk?
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what do you mean too far to talk?
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lagging
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: Out of draw range.
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: it must be present on a backend asset service
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: Ah.
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: that's what I thought.
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( the car object itself is sent on the tps )
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Each region has information about the asset servers to use.
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: You actually send the asset files between servers?
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: objects are special
[11:51 AM] Joe Magarac: OK, let me not tie up the meeting. I need to look into this. Thanks.
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: only objects on inventory get a asset ( at opensim )
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: others are region only things
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But again what does that have to do with impostors? Do you still plan to store them on assets?
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( that ofc are assets... details )
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: As you drive from region to region you wouldn't notice an issue as the asset data will be in the viewer cache.
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rezzed items are in the prims db table yeah?
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: well viewers that see it get in view range need the assets... etc
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: thats like to explain 70% of how regions work :)
[11:54 AM] Joe Magarac: But when you get to region E, another user sees it. Where does their viewer get the asset?
[11:54 AM] orbert tatham: If I read it right, they have to go all the way to the backend server
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: think it that viewers should always use the per region caps
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: thing...
[11:55 AM] Joe Magarac: Right, the viewer relies on the cap it is given.
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( in fact opensim has per region assets like the dynamic textures )
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if rezzed prims are stored in the prims db table the viewer can fetch if from there if needed
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: those are local to regions
[11:56 AM] Joe Magarac: So how do assets not local to regions work?
[11:56 AM] Joe Magarac: Do the sim servers copy them to each other?
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc they all have a shared backend
[11:56 AM] Joe Magarac: AH!
[11:56 AM] Joe Magarac: That's what I thought.
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: regions work as caches of that
[11:56 AM] Joe Magarac: OK, I can work with that.
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: soem grids do like sl CDN
[11:57 AM] Joe Magarac: Just ask the local sim for the asset and let it deal with the details.
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: telling viewers to direct connect to a CDN like assets service
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc local assets will not work
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyways.. regions tell you the URL to use.. to transparent to viewer
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..so..
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you still plan to store the impostors on assets then that's unlikely to be ever supported, because of how much spam that would create. That's like maptiles on steroids kinda levels of bad
[11:59 AM] Joe Magarac: They're just ordinary objects.
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still
[11:59 AM] Joe Magarac: Only one per region, so not a big deal.
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: on this logic they could be like dyn textures
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: local to respective region
[12:00 PM] Joe Magarac: I need ot try some stuff. Thanks.
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Why do they need to be objects in the first place
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any new you would like to share about your viewer project, Gavin?
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: so tehy render from all angles etc
[12:00 PM] orbert tatham: For that matter, you could generate the stuff Joe wants at the same time as the maptiles, couldn't you? That would be region server stuff, but....
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You have the region texture and you can fetch the heightmap for the terrain, that's enough data to construct a crude representation of the region on the fly on the viewer end
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: well raycasts with 0.5m resolution NOOOO
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not really, I had to deal with quite a bit of housekeeping the last week including Bitbucket holding your repos ransom and force you to pay to get access to them again
[12:01 PM] orbert tatham: Ok, end of Bitbucket in my book, but then I never use it anyway
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: but yeah they are related to maptiles
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, np. This past week I've been tied up on some projects so I know how it goes.
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: and map already loads all the prims and builds meshes for them etc
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: so "something" could be "glued" there
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a couple active repos there which is just too much hassle to move
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when I am done with those it is bye, bye Susie
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At most we could add a way for regions to respond with their heightmap directly rather than sending terrain patches, but generating a whole mesh based on raycasts and storing that every time something changes or it's restarted is a massive resource consumption especially because such things are best done on a GPU not a CPU
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: cuga resit plz :)
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: impostors are not just terrain
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: they have prims also
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ??
[12:03 PM] orbert tatham: Ok, guys, gotta run - see you all next week
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( i was seeing you stuck walking cuga )
[12:04 PM] orbert tatham: As was I
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No of course not, but terrain and texture would be a start. At the distances involved unless it's a skyscraper it would be hard to see anyways and the most complex they are the more viewer performance is impacted
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, orbert. see you next week.
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: (ahh. I didn't see. But when I stood up I was walkinmg.. weird)
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Sorry late.. busy time or year for me
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: of*
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: "Did I miss anything?" lol
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: No worries, Cuga.
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: anhh we did not spoke abotu apple silicon crashes :)
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok (phew)
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: You missed me talking about typing while I had a cat on my lap. She was treating me like a Tootsie Pop. Lick, lick, lick, lick, bite. ;)
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: opensim still works on yours?
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at least on Apple Silicon the CPU crash very fast when it does
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: Andrew don't remember me :(
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: My production region is on an Intel Mac. But I have a silicon Mac for testing
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: my surviving cat does not like to be on lap etc
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, sorry about that.
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: whats making it crash? (besides stupid sqlite)?
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: there on top of printer/scanner
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, did you have anything you wanted to talk about before we wrap up for today?
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to go gentlemen
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: well opensim crashes for kent still
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nothing. Just checking in. making sure sthere isnt some new thing with Silicon Mascs LOL
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: cya next week gavin.Hird
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what doesn't crash for kent?
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Kent reaps what he sows
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: see you all next week
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: he needs to just use mySQL
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Gavin. tc. See you next week.
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Kent is a troll. I don't take him seriously.
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok any other issue?
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was about to ask the same question. :)
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: ah hhow is avatar rendering on yr viewer joe?
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: well guess is a nice topic for next week :)
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds like a plan.
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today I'll wrap up today meeting.
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Joe I'm looking forward to the day when I can test a Mac version of your viewer.
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: On that note, I will call this meeting to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
