[11:03 AM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: Hello, everyone.
[11:04 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: try to rebake Andrew
[11:04 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and hi
[11:04 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: 👋
[11:04 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there you go
[11:04 AM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: That wasn't me. It did it on its own. :)
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: whatever it did, you are no longer white
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: A few have had trouble getting the new webrtc plugin to work. I''m going to take a closer look soon
[11:05 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: he was always fine for me, must have been local to ur viewer
[11:06 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: has many official LL regions even swapped over to webrtc yet?
[11:07 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: as some have and some havnt right?
[11:07 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ...there is a magpie outside creaming for food. It thinks I am her mother :-)
[11:07 AM] Vincent Sylvester: lol
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Not that I know of. I spoke at several conferences there in April and host Nonprofit Commons meetings on Fridays. No changes to the regions we frequent
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm using the beta viewer
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: for Firestorm
[11:08 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: guessing Ubits luck ran out regarding their power
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that was an interesting one
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: too much mix of unreliable intermittents in combination with loss of some base load and the entrie thing crashed
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: entire*
[11:10 AM] Orbert Tatham: I am on the latest beta also, it seems to be a bit more stable.
[11:10 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: as long as u arent on 77900, which has a serious bad bug, it should be relatively stable now
[11:12 AM] Orbert Tatham: What is wrong with that one?
[11:13 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: LL changed the skeleton joint code to use threadpools, but FS had their own changes to the code. so after the merge, FS's code was not thread safe at all, and caused numerous bugs with joints, including visual glitches and crashes
[11:13 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: its all fixed now tho
[11:13 AM] Orbert Tatham: Ok, 'splains much
[11:13 AM] Orbert Tatham: 77900 is STILL more stable than a lot of the newer ones, which is a sad comment
[11:13 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: their jira blew up for a few days with bugsplats and people posting on a specific issue about it
[11:14 AM] Vincent Sylvester: "Break a leg" lol
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, I'm on it *grins*
[11:14 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: xD
[11:15 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: 77900 fixes someof the bugs from the previous one
[11:15 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: also 77900 also has an issue with slurls for item gifting and if play on regular SL, experiences
[11:15 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: which i got fixed
[11:15 AM] Orbert Tatham: Stuff I have never used, but good to know
[11:15 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: 77900 is full of problems, i wouldnt recommend using it 😅
[11:16 AM] Vincent Sylvester: 77930 is out already
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ah well testing, you know
[11:16 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: yea 77930 is out
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it did not pop up for me, but I haven't been to SL in a few days
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the problem is LL adds and merges so much crap into the viewer they even lost control of their own pull requests, so even for a small team like FS, it is very hard to keep up
[11:17 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: yeah, they literally "LGTM" the PRs and approve them, without actually testing them. happened literally a few hours back
[11:17 AM] Orbert Tatham: Nothing new there
[11:17 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: they put a PR up with a fix to a specific crash that i was testing at the same time, and their crash fix didnt even work
[11:17 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: so i had to tell them
[11:17 AM] Orbert Tatham: Same problem they have finding their rear end with both hands
[11:18 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Joe gave them a map even xD
[11:19 AM] Vincent Sylvester: At least in regards to OpenSim I still wonder if doing a patching approach might not work better than trying to merge viewer codebase each time, the merge conflicts must be tiring
[11:19 AM] Orbert Tatham: Yeah, wish they could read....
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Heya Cuga
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Motoko, great to see you! *grins*
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr *waves
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Had my nose buried
[11:19 AM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: Hi, Lyr
[11:20 AM] Orbert Tatham: Last I talked to Joe he was asking about a LM to here, but he vanished before I could get it to him. Has he been here lately?
[11:20 AM] Vincent Sylvester: I have not seen him in weeks
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not seen him
[11:21 AM] Vincent Sylvester: The information on how to get here is on the wiki
[11:21 AM] Orbert Tatham: I will tell him next time
[11:21 AM] Orbert Tatham: Actually, I'll give him the LM
[11:22 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Could email him, suppose he only made a osg account so far perhaps
[11:22 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: to be fair tho, the title of the page for the meeting is "Office Hours" which doesnt make it obvious. also googling "opensim meeting", the first result is conference.opensimulator.org which is outdated
[11:23 AM] Vincent Sylvester: I think he is on the mailing list so I think he knows where that stuff is though, it is kinda hidden yeah
[11:24 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Could probably make a redirect page on the wiki with a more appropriate name
[11:25 AM] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: Hihi Lyr... sorry...was grabbing some tea... =)
[11:25 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: yeah that could work
[11:25 AM] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: Hello everyone
[11:25 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: 👋
[11:25 AM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: Hello, Motoko and Hecklezz
[11:26 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: mmm I'm going for my first cuppa coffee
[11:26 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: im having some choccy milk at 4am in the morning before going to sleep after this
[11:26 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: probably a terrible plan, but oh well
[11:27 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sounds good tho
[11:27 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Looking at commits this past week, Ubit did remove the sqlite lib for mac os for now. That's eventually going to come back, but I am trying to steer that into the direction of documenting and checking the third party libs in general and improving that whole side of things, so might take a bit. From my reading of the release notes I think the version mac os uses internally will be fine assuming it is the latest public release
[11:28 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Current codebase doesn't use anything special that was touched by changes
[11:28 AM] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: hihi andrew
[11:29 AM] Vincent Sylvester: A return code for http requests was changed to indicate a non standard return code LL decided to use when the server side times out
[11:29 AM] Vincent Sylvester: That was mantis 9197
[11:30 AM] Vincent Sylvester: I spent the last couple days doing other things and adding back the tooltips lost with the last script syntax update, taking the time to actually add tooltips to as many functions as I know how they work
[11:30 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Also found some overly complex code in the process
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Apple probably use the official release version of sqlite, as there is no project for it on their github
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions?q=&type=all&language=&sort=
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are 509 otehr proejcts but not sqlite
[11:32 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: 🤭
[11:32 AM] Vincent Sylvester: I assume they just compile the release version, it seems to be the same version string at least
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:33 AM] Vincent Sylvester: That's a plus. Means no custom changes that could break something. Then again OpenSim use of sqlite is pretty "standard" so there is nothing that jumped out to me as problematic
[11:34 AM] Vincent Sylvester: There were changes to pragma and some other things I did use for the new migration code, but that's not hard to fix
[11:36 AM] Vincent Sylvester: On the side of mysql/mariadb there were changes made to handle some null condition, so that's a custom built lib we can't work without. There exists an alternative though so that can be updated along with sqlite. Postgres will be a different matter as that connector requires a lot of other dependencies that are otherwise useless.
[11:37 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Some compiler unsafe things and so on that without it won't run at all, but the guid changes also mean even after boot it encounters runtime issues
[11:38 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Being honest, dealing with that is not something I'd like to do, but suppose with the somewhat recent changes to postgres it means it's still on the "supported" list
[11:38 AM] Vincent Sylvester: It may require building a custom version with just the things we need so the dependency list isn't so big, but that's a whole project in itself
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: dependencies because of dotnet?
[11:39 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Yeah, there is a connector on nuget that is more recent, but it will not run without a dozen other dlls
[11:40 AM] Vincent Sylvester: If you eventually find the right pairs of connector and dependencies that will boot it still blows up on actually loading the data
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ouch
[11:40 AM] Vincent Sylvester: I spent a couple days working on that a year or two ago, with that mantis still open since there is no real solution yet
[11:41 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Postgres technically has some nice things we could use to reduce data sizes and such, but I am just not sure if that's really worth the headache anymore as much as like using open source things
[11:42 AM] Vincent Sylvester: The potential future of mariadb and mysql doing their own things also might mean we essentially have another db to support
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is probably something M$ don't want to work so they call sell people their own database "services"
[11:42 AM] Orbert Tatham: That is almost true anyway
[11:44 AM] Vincent Sylvester: In the end I see two options. Updating the connector and working out how to get the current structure back to loading properly or migrating the guid things to strings and then hoping that'll do the trick
[11:44 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Migrations of types in postgres are a big pain though
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it?
[11:44 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: hi
[11:44 AM] Vincent Sylvester: You can't just change a table schema, you have to migrate the whole thing over converting as you write the data
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Ubit
[11:45 AM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: ayyy Ubit
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: are you well powered?
[11:45 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: hmm seems im
[11:45 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Hamster has been given cocaine heh
[11:46 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: ohh could not get his power here
[11:46 AM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: Hello, Ubit.
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Heya
[11:47 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: guess you already covered most the issues for this week
[11:47 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: like any news on apple silicon support?
[11:48 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Is in the works, I want to take the opportunity to document the libraries we compile and ship for future reference
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think it is an issue of AS support as such, but removal of old libraries in the most rencent system builds
[11:49 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well kent did retry lastest code withot sqlite dylib and got same seg fault
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I had an issue with that myself which completely killed the SW I have used to make the web pages and blog for the grid, so had to scramble to build a virtual machine to get it running
[11:50 AM] Vincent Sylvester: I still find it very odd that there is no warning of the potential seg fault when compiling it, I was under the impression modern compilers would be a bit more proactive about that stuff
[11:50 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: a strange thing... 0.9.3.0 does work for him
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Agree with Vincent
[11:51 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: cat says things ar more complex than that :)
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not sure why people dont just try mysql when sqlite doesnt work
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a project called Open Core Patcher which makes it possible to instamm never versions of macOS on machines no longer supported by Apple, and Apple don't like that, so they have actively removed stuff over a the last couple system builds which has killed much support in Open Core Patcher
[11:51 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: because for some, to just install opensim is hard enough
[11:52 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: ( and not clear the issue is for him is sqlite )
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I believe he has (or had) mono and dotnet both installed
[11:52 AM] Vincent Sylvester: My current plan is making a page on the wiki listing the libraries with their compile instructions and then using that as base to work out getting newer versions of those libraries built and tested
[11:53 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: that should not be a issue
[11:53 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: many machines have both
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: works if you now how to set your env variables
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: otherwise you get conflictig libraries
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: at least on Mac
[11:54 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: other issue, anyone testes Robert's webrtc ?
[11:55 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: tested
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: we were talking about that earlier
[11:55 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: ooops
[11:55 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i see no news abotu it in ages..
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm going to take a closer look soon. several who tried had same issues
[11:55 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Last commit was in January
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: MrBlue not doing anything "works for me, whats the problem?"
[11:55 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well and fear a linus only solution
[11:56 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: linux even
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lunix?
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: installs in Mac too, but that doesnt count :D
[11:56 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: install does not mean runs
[11:57 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 100%
[11:57 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: and install is the docket thing..
[11:57 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: errr docker...
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Runs well, just not connecting to OS plugin properly, or plugin to it...
[11:57 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well not that usefull then :)
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: same error as others on Linux
[11:58 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: no idea whn SL does turn off vivox
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so not Mac specific issue
[11:58 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: the problesm with pbr viewers did delay it
[11:58 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Knock on wood vivox holds out
[11:58 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: bc webrtc is on same viewers
[11:59 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: guess servers fro opensim are lost in middle of sl ones :)
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Author of Janus is a macOS person so he has great Mac install instructions
[12:00 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: pfff but no windows
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah :/
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: who needs those
[12:00 PM] Orbert Tatham: So what?
[12:00 PM] Vincent Sylvester: Could hope for Unity to pull a Nvidia and just open source their old crap hoping the community will fix it heh... one can dream
[12:01 PM] Orbert Tatham: That would be a huge pile to fix
[12:01 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well open source does not mean you can use it :P
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe the plugin must be built with entitlements just like the SL plugin for the viewer must, and then be notraized to run
[12:01 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: physx is opensource for ages, and you can't use it outside its terms
[12:01 PM] Orbert Tatham: What license?
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: plugin runs fin and works partially. The errors are not license related , likely some API not working
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if it is built without entitlements and the main is built hardened, the plugin will never be allowed to communicate with the main
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it does communicate, partially
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I got voice to work, and dropped off with x-y distance, but text chat broke, and other things
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so it's functionig, just some API not there yet
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Planning to take a closer look soon
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: with MrBlue
[12:06 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: (NVIDIA PhysX SDK has gone open source (3-Clause BSD license))
[12:06 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: ( 6 yrs ago)
[12:07 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well not sure MB did all the things viewers want
[12:08 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well since he decided to lic is oce as MIT i can't add it to core
[12:09 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: is code...
[12:09 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: cofusing to have project stated as BSD with MIT sources in the middle
[12:10 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: anod no windoes support is really bad
[12:10 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: :p
[12:10 PM] Orbert Tatham: Who put the MIT license on that stuff?
[12:11 PM] Orbert Tatham: MrBlue?
[12:11 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: mister blue code for opensim there is MIT
[12:11 PM] Orbert Tatham: Ouch
[12:11 PM] Orbert Tatham: Thanks
[12:11 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: hmm i think... months since i looked
[12:12 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: darn, time flies
[12:12 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think I need to retur to RL
[12:12 PM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: Don't do it! ;)
[12:12 PM] Orbert Tatham: Later, Gavvin
[12:12 PM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: cya!
[12:13 PM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: hehe... no worries, Gavin.
[12:13 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: see you guys next week
[12:13 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: oops mozila ??
[12:13 PM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: Have a good week, Gavin.
[12:13 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: Mozilla Public License Version 2.0
[12:14 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: have fun
[12:15 PM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: We are now at a quarter past the hour. Any other issues for today?
[12:16 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Need more cat sounds
[12:17 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: Ok see you all next week :)
[12:17 PM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: ok, Ubit.
[12:17 PM] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: kk... good to see everyone...
[12:17 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I should go too.. TC everyone have a great week :)
[12:18 PM] The.Hecklezz @unknown.death.cl:8002: cya everyone!
[12:18 PM] Orbert Tatham: Cuga, please read IM?
[12:18 PM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: If there are nothing further for today I will draw the meeting to a close.
[12:18 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oh?
[12:18 PM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
