[11:23 AM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: Hello, everyone. Excuse my being late. Had somethings I had to take care of.
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:23 AM] Vincent Sylvester: The actual problem should have shown up a lot more, but only did so when the system was stressed in some way
[11:24 AM] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: LOL, I like it when SpaceX has an "unplanned rapid disassembly", we hav "unplanned features"
[11:24 AM] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: rud =)
[11:24 AM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: :)
[11:24 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: exactly kayaker.Magic
[11:25 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Yet that base of information can become misaligned with what the region has
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how does that manifest?
[11:25 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Ultimately the problem was just down to not sending correct data, but it manifested in a completely different way
[11:26 AM] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Terrain on the server has NEVER matched what the viewer shows because they use a lossy compression to send it to the viewer.
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have some terrain where patches of it is very jagged and impossible to smooth. probably has nothing to do with this. it was created ages ago
[11:27 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: there was a small unplaned set of bits, that on same cases could tell a viewer that a patch was at - integer.Max value
[11:28 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: a very short path into mars... if it happened to be in that exact direction
[11:28 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Somehow the viewer only got that mixed up on larger terrain edits even though it should be possible to see it at any time. Something glitching and due to way the protocol attempts to reduce the amount of data sent and received things got whacky
[11:29 AM] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: hihi lyr
[11:29 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Greetings, sorry, OSCC is offline
[11:30 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Heya Motoko *grins*
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Lyr
[11:30 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well issue was on terrain with a particular inclination
[11:30 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Great to see you, Gavin
[11:30 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: we had no reports since arounf 2022 when those bits where added
[11:30 AM] Vincent Sylvester: On a smoothing operation the viewer just sends the type, not any actual values it sees, so the issue does resolve itself, technically, but yeah there is also no input validation on either end so things got even more weird. Eventually, after staring at it long enough, the bug in the sending part fixed the whole thing
[11:31 AM] Vincent Sylvester: The strange thing is no one has seen that before or if so it was never reported. A strange edge case that should not be one, but somehow is
[11:31 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Subsequent changes were mostly cleanup
[11:31 AM] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Buy all!
[11:31 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: bye Kayaker
[11:31 AM] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: POOF!
[11:31 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: bye
[11:32 AM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: Bye, kayaker
[11:32 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Saving some cpu on not doing loops twice
[11:32 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I looked a bit into the crash I was hiving on apple silicon with sqlite last week
[11:33 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Also odd no one reported the smoothing function not being uniform either, what a tiny missing = sign can do
[11:33 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: tampa and cuja had fun crashing a mac with sqlite lib
[11:33 AM] Vincent Sylvester: I updated the mantis ticket with the information we gathered
[11:33 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I built it from the sqlite tarball on github and it worked
[11:34 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: had to tweak the Makefile to get multiple target architectures
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The latest sqlite works, but then why not use the one included with the system
[11:34 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Though first need to read through changelogs to make sure no breaking change is gonna impact the connector code
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it is very easy to compile compared to some other unmanaged libs
[11:36 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Like putting different tires on your car and wondering why the speedo is wrong basically
[11:36 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I wasnt able to figure out how the system searches for usable libraries, everything I googled was conflicting information
[11:36 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: but the one in git master opensim crashes
[11:36 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: taking it out works
[11:36 AM] Vincent Sylvester: It searches next to the application, then known locations and path variables apparently
[11:36 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: putting in the one I built works
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Given that Apple only actively supports 3 system generations (3 years) it is probably not a good idea to use the system one for macOS if you want opensim to work across older system versions too
[11:37 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I fould some 30ish copies of the dylib on my system by doint a find on /
[11:38 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: but I can put it on guthub if anyone wants to try it
[11:39 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the main thing is to have feature parity with other sqlite libs for other platforms
[11:39 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats the issue
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:40 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I tried building a version that was just beflre the last mono commit of the mono.data.sqiite
[11:40 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: and that worked
[11:40 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: then I tried latest tarball and that worked
[11:40 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: only used tag tarballs
[11:40 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Only going as far forward as we really need to
[11:41 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: without knowing the version of what is used for other platforms, I had to guess
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Dahlia Apple supplied dylibs are in the system path so they will be picked first unless you ad general frameworks suck as port to it, where the port version may be picked before the system version. the rest you see are just linked to a specific all
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: app*
[11:42 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: but the dylib in opensim git master is no good
[11:42 AM] Vincent Sylvester: It does work fine on the older intel ones
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then it needs to be replaced
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how old?
[11:42 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well i had a bit of pain to make dotnet actually pic the libs we tell
[11:43 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: and the crashes show that is working also on macs :)
[11:43 AM] Vincent Sylvester: 2018 iirc
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:43 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: pic even
[11:44 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: nahh
[11:44 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: otherwise it wouldnt crash with that dylib
[11:44 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: does look at most to bin/..
[11:44 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i had code that does read those config files
[11:45 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: in fact trying to do what mono did..
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: libs and apps are compiled for a deployment target (minimum system version) and if they get too old, newer system version may have removed the original libs they were dependent on, or upgraded the functionality / interface in never versions
[11:45 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: but dotnet broke it completly
[11:45 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: well... putting the dylib in bin/lib64 and taking it out does toggle the crashing behavior
[11:45 AM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: and yes on thing is that the load always tries ot load a newer version it finds
[11:46 AM] Vincent Sylvester: If a lib is missing like libgdi for example, placing it in bin or lib64 does work, hence the thought of actually shipping that as well
[11:47 AM] Vincent Sylvester: The build process outside of the signing ideally would be documented so that it can be repeated, signing itself needs looking into for other reasons
[11:47 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Apparently despite signing the libs they are still being quarantined when downloaded from the autobuild
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Vincent that may be your settings
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: There is a switch in Syatem Setting sthat almost all macOS iusers change
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: we should document that
[11:49 AM] Vincent Sylvester: It would probably also work to add the xattr stuff to the shell script and use that to start
[11:49 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Instead of using dotnet command directly
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: privacy and Security settings
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: should never need to use xattr, I never have
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: prolly because of my settings
[11:50 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Weirdly it was only sqlite and the physics dylibs that it complained about, nothing else
[11:50 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Thing is we have to assume the out of the box settings
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but for your testing, xattr is fine, to get your test bed working
[11:50 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: yeah bullet seems to work. I didnt try ubode.
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah exactly, and libopenJpeg
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why do you think you need to add xattr ?
[11:51 AM] Vincent Sylvester: To remove the quarantine from the libs it was blocking because of that
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: a vanilla macOS system
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: with highest security settings by default
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does not on never macOS versions
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can only manipulate that via the settings control panel
[11:53 AM] Vincent Sylvester: As out of the box as it gets
[11:54 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Simply continue or remove the file itself
[11:55 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Evidently through not trusting downloaded binaries everything downloaded gets quarantined, which only seems to impact the sqlite and physics dylibs
[11:55 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Rest loads fine
[11:55 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I never saw any popups about security issues
[11:55 AM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: of course I dont see well so may have missed it
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think Gavin has documented the steps on his website somwhere?
[11:57 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I actually need to update that a bit for the latest system versions
[11:57 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hang on a sec
[11:58 AM] Vincent Sylvester: https://i.imgur.com/AO6DyU4.png
[11:58 AM] Vincent Sylvester: Underneath says Keep or move to trash basically
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: right
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Vincent go to System Settings -> Provacy and Security, and scroll all the way to the bottom
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: "Allow applications from.."
[11:59 AM] Vincent Sylvester: So we either need to add a test to check if the system is configured to allow this or find a way to stop it quarantining the files in the first place
[12:00 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: seems if the system requires modification for it to work, something is suboptimal
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: there may ne a command line option to change that setting
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Apple provides cmd line options for many things like that
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I will investigate
[12:00 PM] Vincent Sylvester: Should never have to tell a user to potentially lower security settings
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: no, you should
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if default is Apple Only
[12:01 PM] Vincent Sylvester: Like saying disable your firewall cause port forwarding is hard
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: You have to set it to Apple and other developers
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: App store and other identified developers
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: otherwise good luck getting anything running
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah, its a setting that almost all Mac users change right away, for reasons not to do with opensim
[12:03 PM] Vincent Sylvester: I installed the viewer and nomachine just fine, each of those told me what to change in the settings to allow them to function. OpenSim currently does not
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly Cuga
[12:04 PM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: We are just past the top of the hour. Any other items for today?
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I will see if theres a cmd line to change the security defaults without using the GUI
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Linux typically comes not secure enough, and 1st steos are to add security. On Mac its sort of the opposite
[12:06 PM] Vincent Sylvester: Changing a system wide security policy for a single app is not good security practice
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: limit
[12:07 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I think I hav 14.something. I guess 15 is in beta?
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so that is a must do change
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 15 is current
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 15.4 just came out
[12:07 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: oh I guess I should update lol
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and we support back to 10.15 I think
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 15.4 was released yesterday
[12:09 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: yet the other dylibs seem to work. *shrug*
[12:10 PM] Vincent Sylvester: If we can xattr the dylibs with just three lines of code in the shell script and everything works that, to me, seems better than trying to change a whole system policy
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes better in theory
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have never done a new out of box test on a mac, ever, for opensim
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: maybe I should
[12:12 PM] Vincent Sylvester: Windows to some extend does this too with downloads from unknown sources, asking to "run anyway" on them
[12:12 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: changing it to what I said above is normal and expected
[12:12 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: yeah having code that changes policy is asking for trouble
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: no
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: as a generaization, I agree, but this is a specific common thing on Mac
[12:13 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: using xattr is not the way to do it
[12:13 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: win thats that per binary
[12:13 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: not a global setting..
[12:13 PM] Vincent Sylvester: How else do you remove the quarantine from the dylibs?
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: How are you getting them quarantined?
[12:14 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: maybe find someone with a proper apple dev account to sign it?
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I signed it
[12:14 PM] Vincent Sylvester: Both the autobuild from github and the git clone and compile quarantine the dylibs for bullet, ubode and sqlite
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: its signed
[12:15 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: issue is not signing
[12:15 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: tagged tarball
[12:15 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you turn on the setting I said above, and then you will get a notification in the settings panel to authorize it to run
[12:15 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: baybe it liked it because I built it on the same machine?
[12:16 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: check signing with : codesign -d --verbose=2 --extract-certificates [file]
[12:16 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: fiddling around with xattr just makes it worse
[12:16 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that always helsp Dahlia
[12:17 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it will only work on the same machine unless it is signed
[12:17 PM] Vincent Sylvester: Gavin: https://paste.rs/mfEaY.txt
[12:18 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I will help you update that
[12:18 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: mv lib64/libsqlite3.dylib lib64/libsqlite3.dylib_disabled
[12:18 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: works because it will use the brew or system version then
[12:19 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: so I wont put them on github
[12:19 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which are authorized to run
[12:19 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I believe that is correct Dahlia
[12:19 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you have not fixed anything Vincent, just loading a different version
[12:19 PM] Vincent Sylvester: The system version yes, but the point being I had to also remove quarantine from bullet and ubode dylibs to get it to run, otherwise it would fault on there not being physics
[12:19 PM] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: ( ok rl calls.. have fun.. cya next week :) )
[12:20 PM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: ok, Ubit. See you next week.
[12:20 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Ubit
[12:20 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: so if anyone cares, I got the tarballs I tried here: https://github.com/sqlite/sqlite/tags?after=version-3.32.2
[12:21 PM] Vincent Sylvester: The point of the exercise was to work out sqlite behavior, but it also showed the dylibs being quarantined hence the xattr parts
[12:21 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, trying to "fix" it with xattr on the latest system version just gives you a load of pain
[12:22 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[12:22 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I need to go
[12:23 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a great week all
[12:23 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: but its nice to run regions on the M1 because it sips power
[12:23 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Most folks installing OS on Mac are not buying a Mac just for OS
[12:24 PM] Vincent Sylvester: Like I said. I had no issue installing the viewer or nomachine on it, both telling me what I need to whitelist them for to be able to function properly
[12:24 PM] Vincent Sylvester: So that system policy so far has not stopped me using it for other things
[12:24 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think our docs should assume they are, and include those steps just to be complete
[12:24 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree
[12:24 PM] Vincent Sylvester: I did adjust the wiki on this a little bit
[12:25 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ooh
[12:25 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Dahlia let me know if you ever need a beta tester :)
[12:25 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: not if you change my system policy lol
[12:25 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ok i will watch opensim commit logs and test
[12:26 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Thanks ! Have a great week!
[12:26 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats a good plan
[12:26 PM] Vincent Sylvester: Only doing the things we absolutely need to basically
[12:26 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes
[12:26 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: /me smiles and nods
[12:26 PM] Vincent Sylvester: Same with upgrading sqlite only to a version that will function on arm and not to the latest or something
[12:27 PM] Vincent Sylvester: Only as far as we have to without potentially introducing breaking changes
[12:27 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head to RL, have a great week everybody
[12:27 PM] Vincent Sylvester: How to compile the libs and maybe even how to sign them should eventually sit on the wiki as well for future reference and to be transparent about what we ship
[12:28 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Im the mean time my gothub page has all that info
[12:28 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: https://github.com/cuga-rajal/opensim_apple_arm64
[12:29 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: TC all, see you next week
[12:29 PM] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ty and tc all :)
[12:30 PM] Andrew.Hellershanks @westworldgrid.net:8002: That will do it for another week. Thank you all for coming. See you next week.
