[11:03] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Hello, everyone.
[11:04] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: It took me a moment to find the link for this place.
[11:04] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bring on the clones!
[11:04] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: :)
[11:04] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Two different viewers, FS 6.6.14 does not work well here
[11:05] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: oops hi
[11:05] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: gladd to see you all :)
[11:05] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: if i remember 6.14 had issues
[11:05] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: 6.6.14
[11:06] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: 6.6.17 is the 6x one to use
[11:06] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: 7.1.12.77526 seems working ok
[11:06] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: well except the minimap that is brokne
[11:06] Vincent Sylvester: lol
[11:07] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: file a jira some time ago.. no answer
[11:07] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: filed
[11:07] Kayaker.Magic @arcadiaasylum.org:8002: Quick question:
[11:07] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 6.6.14 was working well for me before I upgraded. 7.1.11 seems fine
[11:07] Vincent Sylvester: Their jira has been pretty dead in general, all my recent issue tickets have had no activity either
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: I'm on 7.1.11 and it works but it has two threads running at near 100% CPU load so it is pushing my CPU temp up rather high.
[11:08] Kayaker.Magic @arcadiaasylum.org:8002: Andrew, you remember Webby Merlin from Virtual Highway? She asked me to ask about "InventoryThumbnailUpload", a get retion capability.
[11:08] Kayaker.Magic @arcadiaasylum.org:8002: She says it used to work in Virtual highway but is missing now.
[11:08] Kayaker.Magic @arcadiaasylum.org:8002: *get region
[11:09] Vincent Sylvester: I don't recall that ever working
[11:09] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Andrew did you try setting max frame rate to 30?
[11:10] Kayaker.Magic @arcadiaasylum.org:8002: Virtual Highway was a grid running OpenSim a few years ago, I forget which version of master.
[11:11] Vincent Sylvester: Speaking of FS, still have an issue open regarding that nonsense SLT thing, no activity either. Will become even more fun next week when the clocks change from pst to pdt
[11:11] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: ohh about slt
[11:11] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: usa will change hour next sunday
[11:12] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: wo will be on that mess again
[11:12] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: eu will only change on march 30
[11:12] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: clocks will be set forward, which means if you forget, you will be 1 hr late to the meeting :)
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Kayaker, That is a name I haven't seen in quite a while. I don't understand the question.
[11:14] Kayaker.Magic @arcadiaasylum.org:8002: There is a feature in the viewer to upload a picture of your outfit, when you use it now, it says "could not get region capability InventoryThumbnailUpload"
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Cuga, I have framerate limited to 29.
[11:14] Vincent Sylvester: https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-34775 For anyone wondering
[11:14] Kayaker.Magic @arcadiaasylum.org:8002: Webby says "Hi Andrew"
[11:14] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah ok
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Kayaker, Say hello to her for me.
[11:16] Vincent Sylvester: That's all part of AIS crap, no support for that in OpenSim as yet, maybe never, useless fluff that has been requested for a decade, never needed
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: I don't recall the ability to upload a thumbnail for inventory. Did that exist in last 0.8 or early 0.9 versions?
[11:16] Vincent Sylvester: Just adds tons of extra resource usage when you can just name things properly
[11:17] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: viewers did not add suport for the tumbnails on the inventory code paths we use
[11:17] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: i actually did half of our side code thenn.. Duhhh moment
[11:17] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: :)
[11:17] Kayaker.Magic @arcadiaasylum.org:8002: Virtual Highway was around before 0.9, so perhaps that was when the thumbnail was working
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: kay thinbnails are NEW sl thing
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: thubnails
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: wel half a year ?
[11:18] Vincent Sylvester: Something like that
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: possible a year now :)
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: btw cuja seen that mantis abotu fatal crash on macs?
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: from ken
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=9183
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: i can't debug ofc
[11:19] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have not looked at that Mantis, I dont think Kent understand how to follow directions
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: and maybe hard.. guess he sis upload a osg iar
[11:20] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have been trying to help him in Discord, even up to this morning
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: ..he did...
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: yeah seen part of that
[11:20] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it turns out he never compiled OS, he just tried to use it prebuilt, on a Mac
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: it kinda should work ??
[11:21] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: His ability to communicate his steps is not very good
[11:21] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I;'ve not been sure if I should try to help him or ignore him
[11:21] Vincent Sylvester: ouch
[11:21] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: My bigger concern is that others reading the thread will get misconceptions
[11:21] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: yes he has some comunication issues :(
[11:22] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So my answers are more for the people viewing and not him
[11:22] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: last i followed was that the path of libgdiplus...
[11:22] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: took a while :)
[11:22] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: this morning after asking many question it turns out he never compiled it
[11:23] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so I suggested he do that
[11:23] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: RTFM
[11:23] Vincent Sylvester: heh
[11:23] Vincent Sylvester: Reading? In this economy? Pah!
[11:24] Vincent Sylvester: Speaking of. I spent my weekend digging around some documentation and worked out how to compile libgdiplus from source, since the ubuntu and debian repo do not have the latest version in them
[11:25] Vincent Sylvester: Supposedly they fixed some memory leaks in the latest version
[11:25] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: another unmanaged lib?
[11:26] Vincent Sylvester: We could ship it for the linux side of things or just make it available via apt repo
[11:26] Vincent Sylvester: Not sure what's the better option
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Compiling libgdiplus from source was dead easy. The problem is that it tended to throw out compiler warnings. The 6.3 version is a little bit better but it will still cause a program crash now and then.
[11:26] Vincent Sylvester: It fails a unit test as well
[11:27] Vincent Sylvester: Hinting at potential issues still
[11:27] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The Mac side is using 6.1_2
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: It used to fail a bunch of unit tests. The 6.3 version not as many. When a program crashes due to libgdiplus there is no usable stacktrace to help narrow down where the proble lies.
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: s/proble/problem/
[11:28] Vincent Sylvester: tiffcodec one failed, all the others seemed to pass though
[11:28] Vincent Sylvester: tiff isn't so widely used so not that big a problem
[11:29] Vincent Sylvester: I have been experimenting with tiff and haven't seen it leak yet either so if that unit test really shows a leak or just some other error would have to read what it does
[11:29] Vincent Sylvester: I merely focused on the getting the latest version part
[11:31] Vincent Sylvester: If it is even worth the effort is the question, given system.drawing is dead eventually have to switch that out for something else
[11:31] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Where do you find the source for libgdiplus 6.3 or newer?
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Kayaker, back to thumbnail loads for a moment, maybe it is a problem with a change in the viewer code.
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: https://gitlab.winehq.org/mono/libgdiplus.git
[11:32] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thx
[11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Actually, it is 6.2 with the version number bumped to .3 and one patch since then.
[11:32] Vincent Sylvester: Note that's not the version that is present in the distro repos, that's all code from before wine took over
[11:33] Vincent Sylvester: Depending on where wine takes it it could end up no longer compatible with .net as well
[11:33] Vincent Sylvester: 6.1.0 is the last version xamarin made themselves
[11:34] Kayaker.Magic @arcadiaasylum.org:8002: I have an "Old Hacker Lunch Meeting" to get to in RL, I'll poke at this thumnail issue and see what I can find before next week.
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: That sounds about right for the version available for the distro I use.
[11:34] Vincent Sylvester: Most distro repos show 6.0.5
[11:34] Kayaker.Magic @arcadiaasylum.org:8002: Buy for now!
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Kayaker left rather early today.
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Darn that RL thing. ;)
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Any idea how to get libgdiplus to provide useful stacktrace?
[11:38] Vincent Sylvester: Compile in debug mode perhaps
[11:38] Vincent Sylvester: I have not seen it crash yet
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: I don't know what msbuild switch will do that.
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Using /t:Debug isn't accepted.
[11:42] Vincent Sylvester: msbuild? I built it with make etc.
[11:43] Vincent Sylvester: It should default to debug build
[11:43] Vincent Sylvester: Try /p:Configuration=Debug
[11:44] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: I modified the makefile and will see if that adds any debug info.
[11:46] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: We could start shipping libgdiplus as an unmanaged lib with "enhancements"
[11:47] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: I read a web page that pointed out a known problem with the library. Not sure if the problem still exists. There are several warnings thrown out during compile and they are legit issues showing bad coding when you look in to them.
[11:48] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: sounds good to look into and to see if theres a compelling case for updating libgdiplus
[11:48] Vincent Sylvester: You have looked deeper into it than I have at that point, I'm happy when things compile without blowing up in my face
[11:49] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It would be best mot to have more unmanaged libs :)
[11:49] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: s/mot/not
[11:50] Vincent Sylvester: Well packaging it with the binary would require binding it so that it is forced to use it, which I don't know how to do
[11:50] Vincent Sylvester: I setup a .deb and just used that to update things to latest version
[11:50] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oh true, that would be a mess
[11:50] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: It would be nice to have a libgdiplus that compiles cleanly and doesn't crash program.s
[11:50] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: best to use one prelinked on the user's system
[11:51] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I meanbinded
[11:51] Vincent Sylvester: It hasn't crashed in combination with OpenSim yet far as I'm aware. Only has a tendency to develop memory leaks
[11:52] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: It is used in another project I am working on and it crashes all the time due to libgdiplus. I haven't been able to determine where it crashes in the library.
[11:54] Vincent Sylvester: With a loaded library like that it usually doesn't tell you all that much
[11:54] Vincent Sylvester: Perhaps there is a different way of loading it in that would provide a more direct binding so when it does fail it gives you more information
[11:54] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: If I could find where in the main program a call is made that triggers the crash I would have a place to start.
[11:54] Vincent Sylvester: But line numbers you first need a debug compile and then somehow load it as directly as possible
[11:55] Vincent Sylvester: You could try bypassing some things and call functions deeper down, essentially moving the code into your program rather than calling top level functions in the library
[11:55] Vincent Sylvester: That's a ton of work though
[11:57] Vincent Sylvester: C code has a tendency to not give much information about its explosions
[11:57] Vincent Sylvester: Maybe convert your program into a unit test or write one that specifically probes the function that explodes, maybe that would yield some data dumps worth looking at
[11:59] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: If I knew what function explodes I would be able to examine that function.
[12:00] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Debugging C code is a lot easier than dealing with C#. Lots of debug tools and ways to track down issues. I find it much harder with C#.
[12:00] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: I may have to do things the old fashioned way and just start throwing in tons of printfs.
[12:01] Vincent Sylvester: You call a function in libgdiplus and then it explodes, starting there to see what that function calls internally and then calling those things, if they are exposed to be called
[12:02] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: I don't know how to use libgdiplus. I'm dealing with a program someone else wrote that uses that library.
[12:02] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: after a certain time threshhold, just go to tonsof printfs
[12:03] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: then take them all out after you figure things out :)
[12:03] Vincent Sylvester: But said program calls the library at some point and then it explodes, first then find which thing it calls that explodes and dig into the C code for that
[12:03] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: yea. I'm at the point where that feels like the best thing to do.
[12:03] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: printfs reveal things you could never know otherwise
[12:04] Vincent Sylvester: Regularly use that approach trying to work out how OpenSim things work
[12:04] Vincent Sylvester: Lots od debug logging and manually calling things in larger routines
[12:05] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Using printf debugging was supposed to have been mostly obsoleted with the use of IDEs. I was hoping I could run the program under an IDE to help track things down.
[12:05] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: add a unique inline comment on all the printfs, then you can do a global search/replace to remove
[12:05] Vincent Sylvester: If it is any flavor of C visual studio should work
[12:06] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: oops
[12:06] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: rl calls
[12:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: I don't know what to do about obvious errors in the code that don't cause a crash. Things like masking two variables then comparing them but the masking is such that the comparison always succeeds regardless of the values of the varaibles.
[12:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: ok, Ubit.
[12:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: We are just past the hour.
[12:06] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So, when I told that guy on Discord to compile, he said "no thanks"
[12:07] Vincent Sylvester: lol
[12:07] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: lol
[12:07] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: you can probably mark his mantis as .. something
[12:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: I can't get the program to run under Visual Studio. The program I try and run under it never finds the data files it needs. I pointed it at the directory containing the files and that didn't help.
[12:08] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: ok need to run
[12:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: I'm going to try again under monodevelop. I haven't tried running it that way recently.
[12:08] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: remember diferent hour next week!!
[12:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Thanks, Ubit.
[12:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Next week meaning the week after this one coming up or the one after that? Next in some countries means the one after the one coming up.
[12:09] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so it shifts an hour earlier next week?
[12:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: I don't have my browser running to check the date for the upcoming time change.
[12:09] Vincent Sylvester: I think their times change on the 9th
[12:09] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for those in US just go by click time
[12:09] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: clock* time
[12:09] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: others come 1 he earlier
[12:09] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hr*
[12:10] Vincent Sylvester: I think it is earlier for EU folks yeah
[12:10] Vincent Sylvester: Damn timezones
[12:10] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for those who;s clocks change Sunday, come at clock time :)
[12:10] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: others, 1 hr earlier
[12:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Alexa told me they change on the second Sunday of March. That makes it this coming weekend and not next weekend.
[12:11] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I hate daylight savings time
[12:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: This time a week from now the meeting will be an hour earlier than usual for those of you who are not in North America.
[12:12] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Google's most advanced AI just told me, Sun, Mar 9, 2025
[12:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Right. That is the second Sunday of this month.
[12:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: Any other last minute items for today?
[12:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8002: All righty then. :) That will do it for another week. I hope the time zone change doesn't cause too many problems next week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
