[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[12:02 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Hello *grins*
[12:02 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: My outfit reverted to one that isn't found in the database since OSGrid came back up...
[12:03 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Yes, a while back
[12:03 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: we were here last week
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: osg assets are still "under repair" some go missing for a while
[12:04 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a screen saying not to clear region caches so that probably extends to not clearing viewer caches.
[12:04 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Finalizing the schedule for OSCC - in holiday this week and asking everyone to send me images of their favorite sims and grids that they would like to share for a showcase
[12:05 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: I upgraded to the latest beta just now
[12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: brave :)
[12:05 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: 7.1.11 76751
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I was tempted to check if there was a newer version than what I am currently running.
[12:05 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: hehe
[12:05 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: well it has to happen sometime
[12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ohh im still on 76720
[12:06 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm still on 6.6.17
[12:06 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: yes
[12:06 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: i have both, Andrew
[12:06 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: but am helping to test
[12:08 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Had a handful of commits past week, adding new lsl stuff and few fixes
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Gavin.
[12:08 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi everyone
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh you did add lsl code vincent?
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:09 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You did, well most of the spec anyways
[12:09 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The reasonable part
[12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the possible parts for now
[12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did add funtion llRezObjectWithParams
[12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that not only does rez the object but also does same has several other functions at same time, like llStatus etc
[12:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: we do not have some the flags ll now has, like the kill of a object when it tries to enter a parcel without rights
[12:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so ofc that does not work :)
[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: it also adds a string parameter to the integer on rez one
[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so i also did add llGetStartString
[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: while the integer parameter does not survive region restarts or crossings this one should
[12:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact seems i just broke master a few minutes ago addind saving of it to Dbs ... oops ;)
[12:17 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[12:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i also made code a bit more restrictive when sending object inventory assets
[12:18 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I had to move the cat out of the way as he was blocking my view of the screen.:)
[12:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: now even owners will not get them, if they have no rights to see ( like script sources )(
[12:19 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: get a transparent cat the next time Andrew
[12:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: we wehre dependent on viewer side permissions on that
[12:19 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that breed of cats is a rare commodity. :)
[12:20 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I guess
[12:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmmm when we did tp with god rights to a region or grid where he had no god rights, viewer had no information abotu that still assuming to have those rights
[12:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: region now does send proper cancelation...
[12:22 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Ubit do these lsl changes make them closer to SL behavior?
[12:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes they are close to sl.. where possible
[12:22 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I mean, closer to spec
[12:22 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok good.. thx
[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: public LSL_Key llRezObjectWithParams(string inventory, LSL_List lparam)
{
/* flags not supported
* REZ_FLAG_DIE_ON_NOENTRY
* REZ_FLAG_NO_COLLIDE_OWNER
* REZ_FLAG_NO_COLLIDE_FAMILY
*
* parameters not supported
* REZ_ACCEL
* REZ_DAMAGE
* REZ_DAMAGE_TYPE
* REZ_OMEGA only does viewer side lltargetomega
*/
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: this are some of teh exceptions :)
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc this is code under test
[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: damage and damage type we will possible never support
[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: since its part of a very naive "combat" thing ll is adding
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: better done by other scripts like before
[12:27 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL is busy developing a Classic Mode for viewers so this is getting messy
[12:27 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for use on old machines
[12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well messy seems to be a second name for sl :P
[12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: in viewer code context at least :)
[12:28 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ..or for people who don't want PBR
[12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: maybe they should just make pbr work without burning the gpu
[12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: like other games are doing for years..
[12:29 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the issue is legacy content
[12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: nahh its not
[12:29 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it not?
[12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: no
[12:30 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: everyone says that
[12:30 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I suspect ll wants to call pre-PBR assetsw "legacy"
[12:30 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah.. ll loves to tell ppl to buy new things
[12:30 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:30 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:30 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just bc they broke them
[12:31 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but old materials are working fine
[12:31 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: inside pbr render
[12:31 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is not going to work this time around because people have literally decades invested in content and you can't just tell them to redo everything
[12:31 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: they did broke enviroment
[12:31 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: legacy mode here I come :)
[12:32 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: happy to hear that is in the pipeline
[12:32 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[12:33 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the also did a mess with terrain
[12:33 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and rock
[12:33 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all looks like it just rained on it
[12:33 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: if one sets terrain to use pbr, older viewers see white or grey
[12:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: here we do have 2 sets..
[12:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc ppl do need to use a older viewer to set terrain textures for old viewers..
[12:34 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm a little behind on PBR. I was thinking it was just for avatars.
[12:35 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I guess the particle system is still non pBR otherwise it is all
[12:35 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact avatars do nto have pbr :p
[12:36 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well at least on viewers side render we have
[12:36 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: doesn't BOM 2 have PBR?
[12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: no
[12:37 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hmmm
[12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: pbr is prims and terrain
[12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: as far i know
[12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: err and light and enviroment
[12:38 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can't set terrain to a PNG with FS7 ?
[12:38 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: So a mesh avatar body can have PBR?
[12:38 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am sure I have seen code also fro avatars, but that may not have been released as anything even beta still
[12:38 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: baked textures do not have pbr
[12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: seems ll even considers go back to viewer side bakes for pbr
[12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but no idea for now
[12:40 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: They have put the bakes on with Phil coming back
[12:40 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so we'll see
[12:40 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: brakes*
[12:40 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been wondering what changes that might bring.
[12:41 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Classic mode obviously
[12:43 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The way it has broken existing things is infuriating in a lot of cases, especially in terms of reflections, but LL suffering from perpetual foot in mouth is hardly news now, maybe just the magnitude of the mess they produce
[12:44 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: PBR also breaks the creation process ofr a lot of smaller creators as it basically requires a sub to Substance Painter to make proper textures
[12:44 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That combat stuff is just hilarious, because the one thing I definitely associate with a laggy mess that barely manages to implement a workable physics engine is fast paced combat -.-
[12:46 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Instead of tackling the things that actually hold so much creativity back, avatar skeleton, parcel options... etc
[12:46 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:46 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree
[12:46 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: arbitary rigging
[12:46 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: morph targets on meshes
[12:48 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ops seems i fix one issue on master and broke another
[12:48 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:48 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: new default avatar with legacy UV map for backward compatibility
[12:48 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:48 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: will the region creash?
[12:48 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: crash
[12:48 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A new system avatar mesh yeah, that would be nice
[12:49 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Rosedale has been back at LL for two years. as a "strategic advisor". He just changed jobs internally.
[12:50 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a feeling they did not listen to his advice much
[12:54 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Went through groups code a bit more over the weekend and between pulling my hair out and removing redundant code, pretty much the conclusion that's not salvageable, so probably needs full rewrite properly integrated into the other parts of the code
[12:54 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lots of custom structures and types that just causes casts and additional memory consumption
[12:55 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Code that is meant to do something, but because other parts are incomplete just runs heavy operations for nothing
[12:55 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just working out what someone has in terms of permissions can be a dozen database calls in the worst case
[12:55 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, it would be nice if the database structure didn't require the rather complicated SQL queries.
[12:56 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They aren't even complicated, they are quite simple selects from where, but there are multiple, which each take opening a connection, running commands and eval the returns
[12:57 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Instead of joining data at sql level and getting the stuff back you need for that specific function
[12:57 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you look at materialized views?
[12:57 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The queries involve multiple tables often with more than one join. Makes for rather long statements for one thing.
[12:58 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I had planned to look into things more deeply, but every step in that code just ends up overly complicated so I stopped while I still had hair on my head left
[12:58 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:59 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: materialized views creates tables of extracts of the data upfront for fast retrieval when needed
[12:59 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: use a bit more torage, but not much for those small tables
[12:59 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: storage*
[1:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just the function that broke the other day first retrieves all roles a member belongs to and then, for each role, fetches just the permissions. Instead of just joining those things at sql level and returning just the permissions field
[1:00 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: create one table of extracts*
[1:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Kinda similar to indexes or just plainly relying on more memory on db level to cache queries
[1:00 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Next meeting, gotta go. thanks.
[1:00 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no it is not like indexes
[1:01 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Joe
[1:01 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a populated table
[1:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The table structure itself isn't that bad. It could use a bit of work, but it seems to be good enough. It's mostly the way the code interfaces with it through the generic table handler that limits it to simple queries that require a lot more code and further queries just to get a single piece of data back
[1:02 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you let the view handle the complexity, so the code can read one record of exactly what it needs
[1:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well and we can't change api now
[1:03 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: view is updated on write, which is few on groups
[1:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: or will break grids
[1:03 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also found there to be a function checking for the set owner role id, which runs on those perm checks as well, but guess what. You can delete that role and the code never updates it, so even fixing that sql nonsense there you sometimes just get no returns
[1:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: unless addign api negotiacion..
[1:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i mean regions/grid api
[1:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All the custom types for the roles, groups data etc are all causing casts to happen as data is retrieved from database or through connectors, even if it ends up being just a collection of strings
[1:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Haven't even gotten to working out what caused those dead roles yet
[1:05 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd rather just rewrite the whole thing, but I got enough of those types of projects going on as is
[1:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: groups v3 seems it should be higher up on priority list
[1:06 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: usage is very common
[1:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well flotsam has similar issues
[1:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: v2 is mostly a adaption of it adding c# grid side
[1:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: if i remember..
[1:09 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it had been made as proper part instead of an "addon" probably wouldn't be burdened with the nonsense sql. That would be easy to fix just writing a new connector for the stuff it needs to do, but then you still cast to the types it implements, which you just don't need to do. Problem is changing those is a lot more work
[1:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( think i did fix master )
[1:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: addon is just a code placement thing..
[1:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: at last for now its in a simple folder..
[1:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: intead os spread by several as typical opensim grid services
[1:11 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It kinda shows that it was made as an optional thing so a few things go the long way to fetch data, further compounding the issue of it being slow
[1:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but sure.. as part of core, should not be on addon folder
[1:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just not a priority issue
[1:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: it was added as a replacement for flotsam one that depends on web side code
[1:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ir ading robust side code in c#
[1:13 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd start a rewrite by keeping the outward facing interfaces and the database, but hooking that up with dedicated code to directly connect them instead of running through the generic table handler
[1:13 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Problem is the types get in the way
[1:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well use of that nasty generic code is just lazy coding :p
[1:14 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not an easy job no matter how you do it
[1:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did remove that form other critical modules like inventory
[1:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: if i remember
[1:14 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I shall need to hop. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone stateside
[1:15 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Happy Thanksgiving!
[1:15 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: tc, Gavin.
[1:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: happy tg for you 2
[1:15 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Take care
[1:17 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Going to test something after the meeting. All set?
[1:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cuga, libgdiplus still works on later apple silicion ?
[1:18 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I yes
[1:18 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well I donlt have a later solocon to test, but I donlt see why not
[1:18 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: That's good
[1:19 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have an M1, shoudl be same
[1:19 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: other M2, M3 etc should be same I think
[1:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: someone at osgrid support discord was not able to install it
[1:19 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: use brew
[1:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I would need to look at their post, likely not doinf something right
[1:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: we told him that..
[1:20 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I have another project I've been working on that uses libgdiplus. It throws out errors or crashes because of it. I've done a bit of looking in to the reasons behind it and have started to find out just how much of a dogs breakfast is that code.
[1:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: he failed to make it work somehow
[1:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: do you remember what hardware?
[1:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: on Sequoia 15.2
[1:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: whatever that means :)
[1:21 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 15.1.1 is the latest release, so he's using an unstable beta
[1:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: sounded more like a install folders issue
[1:22 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think Gavin has a more recent M-somethig silicon, so maybe he can test
[1:22 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: No issue on latest macOS release and m1
[1:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well no idea why ppl that need step by step detailed instructions to do anything keep installing the very latest pack of bugs
[1:23 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the install is pretty simple, either it works or it doesn;t
[1:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: from the pastes he did on that channel the brew did install the lib
[1:23 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: have never seen it not work
[1:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just somewhere dotnet does not see
[1:24 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ohhh.... yes you have to create a symbolic link
[1:24 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I explain that on my gothubpage
[1:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the normal one did nto work
[1:24 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the macOS instructions on OS website really not complete
[1:25 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: See my notes in https://github.com/cuga-rajal/opensim_apple_arm64
[1:25 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: "If you use Brew to install Libgdiplus on an Apple Silicon computer, you also need to create a symbolic link:
sudo ln -s /opt/homebrew/Cellar/mono-libgdiplus/6.1_2/lib/libgdiplus.dylib /usr/local/lib/libgdiplus.dylib
[1:26 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: since dotnet only looks in /usr/local
[1:27 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I bet that was the issue
[1:27 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: macOS not well documented in a number of places
[1:28 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Could help with that sometime
[1:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did paste that link
[1:28 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Its wordy, they might not have read down to the part that was important
[1:29 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: just tell them
[1:29 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: sudo ln -s /opt/homebrew/Cellar/mono-libgdiplus/6.1_2/lib/libgdiplus.dylib /usr/local/lib/libgdiplus.dylib
[1:31 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well it might be a diff version now
[1:31 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: /opt/homebrew/Cellar/mono-libgdiplus/[version]/lib/libgdiplus.dylib
[1:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: thanks
[1:32 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: let me know if that fixes issue
[1:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well any other opensim issue?
[1:33 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nothing here
[1:33 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: Andrew?
[1:33 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It is a good time to wrap up the meeting for this week.
[1:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[1:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: rl calls
[1:34 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
