[11:00 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, yes. I see it now. Nicely done.
[11:02 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well no commits this week, work mostly going on in the background
[11:02 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: After 6 hours of mind torture I managed to work through all the postgres migrations and write the files for the new migration system on that
[11:03 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not without having to change the migration system again seeing as postgres does some weird things like sequences to auto increment the estate ids, which it also does wrong, but alas
[11:03 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That leaves testing the system further and debugging whatever comes up still funky. Certainly 4 different ways to set an index or primary key isn't fun to handle in code
[11:04 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are also 220 schema and migration files just for postgres compared to about 100 for mysql
[11:04 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you basically have to unlearn MySQL when working on it
[11:05 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's become painfully apparent yes :)
[11:05 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *gives Kayaker some Band-Aids
[11:05 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why?
[11:05 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: /,e grins and waves
[11:05 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: What's also not helping is that a bunch of migrations done require making temporary tables to cast things back into as you cannot change types on the fly
[11:06 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the number of tables should be the same
[11:06 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are some leftovers in there still, but yeah I did not write stuff for those
[11:06 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you might have to specifically make some indexes, but the rest can be done on the table creation/update
[11:07 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I was about to say it is nice working with a SQL standard but then I remembered the xkcd cartoon about standards. It said the nice thing about them is there are so many to choose from.
[11:07 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The sequence for the estate id stuff was the most annoying part cause that meant adding a whole new check routine to make sure it is actually present
[11:07 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also requires the routine to be present before it is used, so that'll be fun
[11:08 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is MySQL that is out of standard
[11:08 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I thought sql stands for standard-less questionable language
[11:08 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:08 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:09 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have an interesting update... Last weekend I installed opensim on a new architecture.. sort of
[11:09 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Um... phone. bbiab
[11:10 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: RISC V?
[11:10 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Ubunto arm64 on Apple Silicon
[11:10 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Nice.
[11:10 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: On my standalone running mariadb at least the new system functions and is able to migrate different table versions. Detecting what version a table is based on the schema files. Going forward the version info for them will sit in table comments rather than a dedicated migrations table. sqlite will just use schema detection since it still does not have table comments
[11:11 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: was it snappy Cuga?
[11:11 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yep
[11:12 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good
[11:12 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So here's the interesting part...
[11:12 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It has all the prerequisites for OS, and I was able to build OS
[11:12 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I was expecting to have to rebuild all the unmanaged libs
[11:13 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But it loaded the libs that were built for Raspberry Pi, and worked like charm
[11:13 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: on a box with way more RAM, more prpcessors, more speed
[11:14 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I did rebuild the unmanages libs anyway, using the gcc that comes with Ubuntu arm64
[11:14 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It started up fine with those as well
[11:14 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Not ure if those are necessary. Might be more optimized for my config
[11:14 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I mean on solicon
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So for a change Apple actually adhered to a standard and implemented arm64 as per spec
[11:15 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: They have a slightly expanded instruction set
[11:15 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but compliant
[11:15 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: uname-m returns aarch64, not arm64
[11:15 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but the newly-built libs load the same
[11:16 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they have implemented the mandatory intruction set, but added their own too
[11:16 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: that was the whole point of M
[11:16 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for instance Intel memory mode instructions
[11:16 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The new Ubuntu supposedly includes some GPU support
[11:16 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for the silicon processors
[11:16 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some
[11:17 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I don;t think OS uses that though, does it?
[11:17 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it also only runs on M1 M2
[11:17 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh not M3?
[11:17 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no
[11:17 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: interesting
[11:17 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or M4
[11:17 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: probably will after some development time
[11:18 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So I have a set of 3 unmanaged libs for that arch, not sure if they have any value being added to trunk
[11:18 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can't remember there was a releatively detailed discussion on Ars
[11:18 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: can probably count on your hands the number of people in the worls doing this
[11:18 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does it add any benefits over running in the BSD system and with full MS support of dotnet?
[11:19 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on macOS
[11:19 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Can install a headless Ubuntu
[11:19 AM PT] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Headless?
[11:19 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so no UI to take up CPU
[11:19 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I run all my OS Macs headless
[11:19 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: peace of cake
[11:19 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: just unlug the monitor :)
[11:20 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but it still has the GUI libs running
[11:20 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes and log out the GUI
[11:20 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not running, dormant in memory
[11:20 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Ubuntu will install as a server without any Wayland or X11
[11:20 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you don't HAVE to start the GUI on macOS
[11:20 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So I think that would be way faster than using macOS
[11:21 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it happily boots into a temrinal interface if you know hoe
[11:21 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how*
[11:22 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: talking macOS server?
[11:22 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no
[11:22 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: standar macOS
[11:22 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok
[11:22 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well I can look into that
[11:22 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can even load X-windows oa tour GUI
[11:22 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have only done it for fun on the Intel Macs
[11:22 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but no macOS apps with a GUI will run under it
[11:22 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course not
[11:23 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so anyway, it;s a new option for macOS hardware
[11:23 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but you needed a server install
[11:23 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:23 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and uses the Canonical stuff from Ubuntu so well supported
[11:23 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the last time I tried you could run X-based apps
[11:24 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyway
[11:24 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so thats my report
[11:24 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: brilliant!
[11:25 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.
[11:25 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have unmanaged libs for that if anyone interested. I don;t know if they are better than the Raspberry Pi ones
[11:25 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: might be better optimised for the apple slilcon config
[11:26 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It wonlt be long before we see cheap "old" M1
[11:26 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and way faster than x86_64
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Think it is best to just stick to arm64 for now given it should be compatible and is a more wide spread standard
[11:28 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: new Mac mini launched today with M4
[11:28 AM PT] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Apple has a long history of abandoning their users with 'old' hardware that isn't supported any more. That will make the M1's inexpensive!
[11:29 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes!
[11:29 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Its too bad there isn't a benchmarking tool for opensim
[11:30 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: would be an interestig comparison
[11:30 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Too complex to really bench that. You can compare physics performance, script throughput and such
[11:31 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah
[11:31 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can fill a region with avatars and see
[11:31 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: isn't there a tool for that?
[11:32 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: campbot, but it can be a bit of a pain to get working
[11:32 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, campbot
[11:32 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thanks!
[11:32 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Heres the link to the Ubuntu ARM distro I used - https://ubuntu.com/download/server/arm
[11:33 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can also use a ton of NPCs and make them move around. Not as heavy as full avatar, but gives you some idea. You just compare cpu and memory usage for a known load as analog as possible
[11:33 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: trick is keeping everything the same in both tests
[11:33 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think I have dance floor wher you can specif a large number of NPCs
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wondering how long it will be before we see larger scale rack type stuff with arm in it
[11:34 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you can have like 100 NPCs two-stepn
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Filling a chassis with Pi's or something has already been done
[11:35 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: dpewm
[11:35 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are commercial 128 core rack servers
[11:35 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: doesn't Nvidia hav something oike that?
[11:35 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no
[11:35 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nor for ARM
[11:35 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: ah
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah apparently there are 256 core arm chips used as asic crypto miners, but they also cut down on all the other parts
[11:36 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ampere-altra-max-128-core-priced
[11:37 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: somewhat old article
[11:38 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I would not count on dotnet handling a 128 core CPU gracefully
[11:38 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:39 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Not likely anyone will try any time soon.
[11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: AmpereOne 192 cores
[11:39 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Pricetag 3k
[11:40 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You could use qemu or something to hypervise them if that is supported software
[11:40 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Apple only gives you 32 for that price :)
[11:40 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: "give"
[11:42 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hardkernel sells a 16 core mixed rockchip with 16gb memory for 150 bucks... just as comparison lol
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even called it the M2 lol
[11:43 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: At least it isn't called the M5. ;)
[11:44 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: M5 Motorwya
[11:44 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: motorway*
[11:44 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: heh
[11:45 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: isn't that the name of a BMW?
[11:45 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: M5
[11:45 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Star Trek reference.
[11:46 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, you have an announcement to make. You can have the floor.
[11:47 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Go.
[11:48 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: *crickets*
[11:48 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: hehe
[11:48 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: sorry, Jagga
[11:48 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: Last Call for speaking or hosting an event or zoom workshop at OSCC. I'm planning the schedule for it. *grins*
[11:48 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: we also are opening registration for the conference, which is free and open to all
[11:48 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: I'm signed up
[11:48 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: we have Zoom workshops the week after the conference and Great!
[11:48 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: and a place for posting events
[11:48 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I just saw the email about registration being opened a few hours ago.
[11:49 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: yes, the link to it is working but the Register link on the site has yet to be opened.
[11:49 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: We do early bird registration for Core Dev, speakers, and volunteers
[11:49 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: good toknow.
[11:49 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: https://conference.opensimulator.org/call-for-proposals/
[11:49 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: https://conference.opensimulator.org/
[11:50 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: I'll be sending out the speaker letters later this week. Thank you!
[11:50 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: Back to you
[11:50 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you, Lyr.
[11:50 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: Time zone change
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:50 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: for some
[11:50 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just about to mention that as the nxt order of business. :)
[11:50 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hello
[11:50 AM PT] Lyr Lobo chuckles
[11:51 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: For some of you the clocks are changing this weekend. That means you need to be here at a differnt time than usual until clocks changein the US.
[11:51 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Europe already changed
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: after us changes things will get to "normal"
[11:51 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: If the clocks are going back an hour that should mean being here an hour earlier than you are used to.
[11:52 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, they changed this past weekend.
[11:52 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: no, other way
[11:52 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:52 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if you forget you will be an hour early
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and ofc i forgot :P
[11:52 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so only Ubit was late to the party ;-)
[11:53 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: early to the party
[11:53 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, I always find it confusing to work oug early or late after a time change.
[11:53 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes always confusing!
[11:53 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: spring forward, fall back
[11:53 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: use the world clock on your computer
[11:53 AM PT] Lyr Lobo grins
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: things will get to "normal bc PST wil change to PDT
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: or something
[11:54 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: other way around
[11:54 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just noticed it says SLT up there now, no more pdt or pst huh
[11:54 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, I find PST/PDT even more confusing.
[11:54 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Dark earlier. Bleah. Gotta go, next meeting.
[11:54 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Do grids switch time based on US rules? or does it chamge based on location
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ok see kayaker.Magic was playing wiht his gilotine again
[11:54 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: grid time
[11:55 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: system time of host computer?
[11:55 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: grid time is supposed to be pst/pdt pacific standard time or pacific daylight time, but suppose that's now hardcoded to SLT
[11:55 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is the head rolling around somewhere in the region?
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: osg like many use sl time that is usa pacific
[11:55 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The time in most grids is PTafaik. The grid time would change when the US clocks change.
[11:55 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Technically you can configure the shown time in config, but viewers also have to obey that, which not all do
[11:55 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: someone find it and return it to Kayaker
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: viewers used to allow time in UTC not only have sl time
[11:56 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000 gives Kayaker a band-aid
[11:56 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If Firestorm actually hardcoded SLT into there that's gonna confuse even more people
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well like happens to many, if head is not attached we lose it
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wlel mess is no agreement btw USA and EU on time changes
[11:57 AM PT] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I've joined my headless servers out of sympathy
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and rest of world
[11:57 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: pst/pdt is easy to google though, slt maybe not as much
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: slt is just pst/pdt
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: they just decised to be fancy
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like im on WET wtf is WET
[11:58 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah and confuse everyone
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it is exactly GMT now
[11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The US keeps talking about stopping the twice yearly clock changes.
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: EU almost decided that a few years ago
[11:58 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: they voted to do it then it got overturned
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but made a mess
[11:59 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just saying moving away from known timezones to one you made up is going to confuse people more than it'll help
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some countries could stay i summer time, others in winter...
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so no one did agreed
[11:59 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: US was proposing to leave daylight savings on permanently - crazy!
[11:59 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: summer time in winter makes for very dark morning in Northern Europe
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ahh and my country decided it wanted to keep changing..
[11:59 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is not good
[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that the clock forward or back. I'm never sure about which is which between savings time and standard time.
[12:00 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sun would rise liek 10 in the morning or later mid winter
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yur luck .. mor at north only rises in 6 months :p
[12:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: pdt moves clock forward, loss of an hour
[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I like when the clocks move forward. It stays light later. I'm not usually up that early.
[12:01 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nobody lives on the poles
[12:01 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Northernmost Norway it is below horizon in around 2 months
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: There are scientific research stations near the south pole.
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: they are far from the pole :)
[12:01 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure
[12:02 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: people just need to adjust their activity hours... stupid to change the clocks
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: well, closer than most anyone else is.
[12:02 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like in Drommin Mauds Land (our chunk of it)
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah sure... but it is a huge continent
[12:02 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Dronning*
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: Antarctica i meant..
[12:03 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Yes. Our chunk of it is 2 700 000 km2
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: "... about 40% larger than Europe,.."
[12:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Should probably open a ticket with FS to respect timezones sent by OpenSim over nonsense slt
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: there are no timezones
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: utc/slt/local was a user option
[12:05 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: was or is?
[12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: it was
[12:05 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It doesn't send one by default, but you can set one to send
[12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: one could click up there on time and change it
[12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: there is no time exchange with regions
[12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: not wall time at least
[12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: vierwers are supposed to sync ith UTC
[12:06 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lets get back to before railway times, wheren every station had their own time and you would have to set the clock back or forth for every stop
[12:06 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: each grid should be like that, or even every region :-)
[12:07 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: tehn you could teleport back in tim
[12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well each viewer will have own time if you don't use NPT or similat
[12:07 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: DSTZone = "America/Los_Angeles;Pacific Standard Time"
[12:07 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: time travel
[12:07 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In robust config
[12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is for grid use
[12:07 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Never said it was region specific
[12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: also on regions
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: some of our LSL can confuse ppl bc hey can give server local time
[12:08 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Viewers should obey that though just in case someone wants to change their time
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well hty don't
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: as i said they use computer time
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ie its idea of what UTC is
[12:09 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus an offset
[12:09 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to get to PDT/PST
[12:09 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lsl wallclock and such will send time based on what they are run on, but robust can tell viewer which time zone to use
[12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: they do the mess for local time etc
[12:09 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's for the display clock up top
[12:09 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not talking about lsl, talking specifically about changing pst/pdt to slt
[12:09 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is just a label
[12:10 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A confusing label and one that shouldn't be there if the viewer obeyed the timezone set by robust
[12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: for old windlight regions may send a kind of unixtime
[12:10 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: eep uses utc
[12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact entire grid should only use UTC
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: for timestamps etc etc
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess most is like that.. or i hope
[12:13 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Internally all is linux epoch timestamps, but conversions are done on viewer end mostly. I just don't think it is wise to not obey the specified timezone and change to a proprietary one that most timezone converters probably don't recognize
[12:14 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: problem comes with tleports between grids
[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: slt is only used on display
[12:15 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you go back and forth in time for every TP
[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: for humans only
[12:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Internal processes need a time standard that never changes, UTC, so periodic processes can run without interuption - GC etc
[12:16 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and windlight day cycles don;t match up to anything RL
[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: they kinda should..
[12:16 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they can
[12:16 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah true,
[12:16 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: with a slider for the hours offset
[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: as i said eep uses utc
[12:16 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but it isn't that cool to have a grid in winter darkness 18 hours per day
[12:17 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or even above the Arctic circle
[12:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( your pc idea of UTC i say again ... )
[12:17 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lol
[12:17 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: can you make the sun go 360 around the horizon like arctic circle
[12:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: you can program the sun movement
[12:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: make it go up and down.. etc
[12:18 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but not the lattude
[12:18 PM PT] Lyr Lobo smiles
[12:18 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a jumpy sun
[12:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just see what eep is
[12:19 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Let's hope Firestorm can correct this, cause it'll only cause more confusion with timezones when your search for "8pm gmt to slt" comes up empty
[12:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact could be 2 suns ( or 2 moons or whatever) untill sl broke it
[12:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: fs will just use SLT.. period
[12:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: it is a old useless discussion..
[12:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: now its one sun and one moon, spaced 180 degrees apart?
[12:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: as i said.. go look what eep is..
[12:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: better and faster than typing here :P
[12:21 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: eep has zero to do with the display clock in the top right of the viewer
[12:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: it actually uses same utc time source
[12:22 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: time source != time zone
[12:22 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just put a sticker on your screen over the PDT label
[12:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well code changes.. guess not much of any last week
[12:23 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The bigger point is that it should obey the time zone sent by robust ideally, so that someone that might want to use a different time zone for their grid doesn't have to deal with more confusion. Otherwise why bother sending it
[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah just little typos
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: no ti should not obey nothing
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: at most it should be as it was
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: giving user a option
[12:24 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can see how differing times in the top right on different grids can cause confusion
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: world time is just a mess
[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the only that could make sense is UTC
[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is its only job in life.. to he the Universal time reference
[12:25 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: would be nice to simulate a geographical location and include their time i the top right, but could cause confusion
[12:25 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no hums use UTC so that is useless
[12:25 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: humans
[12:26 PM PT] Lyr Lobo grins
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: all science uses utc
[12:26 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cuga, that's what the event search does
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: where time matters
[12:26 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have you ever seen a UTC watch?
[12:26 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: knew that was coming
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: try do astronomy on local times
[12:26 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: I said the same thing, Gavin
[12:26 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: miliitary
[12:26 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: [12:26 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: very grand
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well that even has sireal time.. another mess..
[12:26 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: astronomy works brilliant in local time
[12:27 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes
[12:27 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The point is that outside of SL who actually understands what SLT even is, I just typed "gmt to slt" into google, it found nothing
[12:27 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Apart from gmt to sri lanka time
[12:27 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: stop using Google
[12:27 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:27 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well ppl don't even know that GMT is gone... it is now UTC
[12:27 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: pst/pdt is a recognized time zone
[12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: gmt is now just a UK local zone
[12:28 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Not gone but different use cases. Mostly they are the same.
[12:28 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Robust tells to use that, so viewer should, else why send it in the first place
[12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: it is gone was world reference
[12:28 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's difficult enough to get people onto the same time with time zones as they are, adding a custom one that is unknown to 90% of people doesn't help
[12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: you should only care abot gmt ig going to england :P
[12:29 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: You can always use an AI like Siri to figure it out:
[12:29 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: "Siri, what time is it?"
- "It is 12:54"
"what time will it be in an hour?"
- "It is 1:54"
"What time is sunset?"
- "Sunset is at 6:09 pm"
"How long until then?"
- "Sunset is at 6:09 pm"
"How long until sunset?"
- "Here is an article I found about how long until then"
[12:29 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hahahaha
[12:29 PM PT] Lyr Lobo grins
[12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:29 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That might change with Apple's new "AI" Siri
[12:29 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: this was the new (latest)
[12:30 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: oh god Siri's bad enough
[12:30 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I just updated my phone... let me try
[12:30 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: hehe
[12:30 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Does anyone have a favorite AI companion? I've been asked to interview one at a disability rights conference n November.
[12:30 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that sounds like the type of responses I often get from Alexa.
[12:31 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: other than Siri *grins*
[12:31 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, it is not very intelligent
[12:31 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: I'm a singer. I know how to pronounce things. Siri can't tell if I'm saying fifteen or fifty
[12:31 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: consistent and yes
[12:31 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The new Siri , same peoblem
[12:31 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not any better :)
[12:31 PM PT] Lyr Lobo grins
[12:31 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lol
[12:31 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... instead of AI it should be AS (artificial stupidity).
[12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc if you tell anyone it is 13:00 SLT they will think it is Sri lanka time
[12:32 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Siri Lanak time
[12:32 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Lanka*
[12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: we Sir really :p
[12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: err Sri lol
[12:33 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: am rescuing something that is burning on the stove... have fun
[12:33 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can;t count the muber of times I've burned things in the kitched while in world
[12:34 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: dangerous combination
[12:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:35 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I set the timer on the microwave to remind me when something needs attention.
[12:35 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: just wait till SL's mobile viewer is fully functional.. a lot of SL and driving...
[12:35 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: having headphones with noise canceling makes it impossible to hear the fire alarm
[12:36 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Moto you're prediction is probably right
[12:36 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It is now half past the hour. I think we have probably talked enough about timezones for one day. Time to call the meeting to a close for another week.
[12:36 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: =)
[12:36 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I've seen people reading books while driving on a long highway, looking up every second or two
[12:36 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week (if we all remember to handle the changing of the clocks).
[12:37 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I had a colleagu who cause a chain collision on the motorway
[12:37 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when I asked him what happened, he responded: I was studying for an exam
[12:37 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: hehe.. a few years back.. during the pokeman craze... someone stopped their car ...to catch one... caused accidents...stopped traffic for awhile...
