[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: welcome
[11:06 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: watching fascinating documentary on wormholes, stuff like that
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not many code changes durng last week, just a fix to a typo on oar loading
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: cut
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile joe, found a regions to test the terrain rendering?
[11:09 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Terrain rendering is working fine for the common cases.
[11:09 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I'd like to test a T-intersection, but I've never found a live one on OSGrid.
[11:09 AM PT] Joe Magarac: So it can't be that common.
[11:09 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I set you up regions
[11:10 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Where, Sharpview5?
[11:10 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Through 7
[11:10 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Should form a t intersect if I got the coords right
[11:12 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Testing sharpview4->sharpviews7 now.
[11:13 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I spent the weekend on the tiff terrain loader. Currently only the r32 format supports full terrain scale for tall regions. All the other modules cut it off at 256 meters. Apparently this is because the gdi can only do 8bit grayscales even if bitmap technically holds up to 16 bit. So I took the tiff loader module and made a bit by bit save and load routine so it actually stores more levels
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Seems to mostly work, but I have some odd data that I still need to work out where it comes from
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For the most part though it works and Gimp happily loads and saves that type of heightmap so finally can edit it in something other than paid programs
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure if png or bmp can be done as well, those formats are different and might not write bit by bit
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: only way to cover all opensim mess is r32
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah, but with tiff I can at least get close enough to have something to work with
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I limited it to 1024 meters, but it should support more
[11:17 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tiff is common enough... that is great news
[11:17 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr
[11:17 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: Hello
[11:17 AM PT] Lyr Lobo grins
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: "... TIFF stands for Thousands of Incompatible File Formats"
[11:18 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: haha
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: hehe
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:18 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: and is often required for publishing -- a graphics file format
[11:18 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: converting from other formats to tiss is there loss due to compression/uncompression issues?
[11:18 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: most of my books required it
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am converting one to one, not doing compression, that would be a massive pain with tiff having various different compression algos
[11:18 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: s/tiss/tiff/
[11:19 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: ok, what I figured
[11:19 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A 512 var is only 513kb anyways, not much need to compress that
[11:19 AM PT] Lyr Lobo smiles
[11:20 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so the 1024 limit will cover 8x8 but not bigger, correct?
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Height limit not size limit
[11:21 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ahh
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Technically 16 bit grayscale should hold 16 million levels
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Technically...
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I will probably up the limit to 4096 and see how that behaves
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it loads properly
[11:22 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oh I see 4096 height limit
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not really vincent.Sylvester
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have some odd initial data in the first two bytes that doesn't make sense, so need to work out how that came about
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: 16 bit == 64k
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: 65,536 levels
[11:23 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: that is still sufficient?
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Should be
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: when we did try to use 16bit on terrain store, ppl managed to have reagions breaking it
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so later i just went into f32
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I saw some commented code on the bitmap one, but the problem is gdi out of the box doesn't do 16 bit anyways it goes down to 8 bit, which doesn't have enough space to hold the data beyond 256
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So it cuts it off to fit
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Apparently ImageSharp does full 16 bit as it should
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: thats 24bit
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ie rgb
[11:26 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's pixelformat, color is separate from that and currently it stores 32bit even
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well same as rgb
[11:26 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 32bit pixelformat bmp, 8bit color
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: didn't look what libgdi supports
[11:29 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It says on the tin it does bitmap, but then you try and it just saves 8bit color. Found a bunch of stackoverflow questions complaining about just that
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: our tiff exported only does 256 levels it seems
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: stored as rgb? well bad
[11:30 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah cause it internally refers to generic system drawing as well
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: are you sure Format16bppGrayScale does not woklr?
[11:33 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I searched for how to make bmp do 16bit color or grayscale and all answers I have found were that gdi doesn't do it properly
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried a few things, but none worked, all gave me a cutoff at some level going full white
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: case PixelFormat16bppGrayScale:
case PixelFormat16bppARGB1555:
case PixelFormat48bppRGB:
case PixelFormat64bppARGB:
case PixelFormat64bppPARGB:
case PixelFormat32bppCMYK:
*bitmap = NULL;
return NotImplemented;
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess not
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Doing it manually is actually not that complicated looking at the code chatgpt spat out at me. After fixing its hallucinations it appears to work for everything except the first two bytes which are for some reason not correct. it doesn't appear to affect the region at all though. Not sure what is going on with that yet
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: One height value that is out of array, but the terrain it loads appears to match anyways
[11:37 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's like its missing a value, but the array size that is saves matches...
[11:37 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If I go longer it goes in end of file
[11:37 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gimp doesn't report any weird values either
[11:37 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Either this is more voodoo or I missed something
[11:38 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The code that chatgpt stole is from a stackoverflow answer so it must be at least half correct I would think
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: Vincent.Sylvester coding hallucinations left?
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov runs and hides
[11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's the warm weather, brain fried xD
[11:40 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: Not sure how much I'd trust ChatGPT. It has some strange ideas about Classical music.
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well as it just steals code that I can then verify where it was from it at least can copy paste without much error
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's reached intern level of development proficiency lol
[11:41 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. Sorry for being late but I had a late lunch. Before I finished someone came to the house about some work I want done.
[11:41 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks sighs
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh im listening to classic music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ30neuKZt0
[11:42 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: want
[11:42 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, classic for where you are but not for me. Don't know that group.
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( andrew.. it was a joke :P )
[11:43 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: What is the current topic of discussion?
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: tpic was Vincent.Sylvester coding hallucinations
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Me being slightly smarter than an "AI"
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oops /me rubns and hides again
[11:44 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, :)
[11:44 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I've found those "AI" things useless.
[11:45 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: Vincent's doing something to store something in tiff's but it's weird
[11:45 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's good at copy pasting from stackoverflow at least
[11:45 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I had it write a routine for tiff metadata so I could stuff heightmap terrain data behind that as 2 byte data
[11:46 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That way I can store more terrain height and still load it in Gimp
[11:47 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: yeah, we need to rez Mt Everest in its entirety
[11:47 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Been a few decades since I last used TIFF files.
[11:47 AM PT] Lyr Lobo chuckles at Jagga
[11:47 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:48 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well bmp through gdi does only do 8bit grayscale, so can't use that. r32 required paid software and png I didn't even look at
[11:48 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just needed one readable format so tiff will do
[11:49 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I've created terrain files without needing to use paid software.
[11:49 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can, but you are limited in the terrain height
[11:52 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It has been a while since I messed with terrain files. I forgot the name of one of the programs I used to use to make them. There is a format that lets you use more than 255 steps of height now? I remember it was 0-255 and then there was a multiplier in there somewhere.
[11:54 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause loading anything outside of terragen r32 uses system.drawing which will only do 8bit grayscale. Bitmap and tiff at least can hold 16 bit color and 32bit pixelformats, but with gdi not able to read or write basically have to do byte for byte and stream the data in and out. That works to allow for higher terrain and apart from that strange 2 byte at the beginning reproduces terrain one to one
[11:54 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It would be better if all the formats would support this. Have not looked at manually doing bmp and png, not sure if possible
[11:55 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: With tiff all metadata is at the start so it's easy to assume where the terrain data is, other formats might have it at the end or wrapped, which might be more difficult
[11:56 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have not found any manual way for bmp yet either, was the first I looked at and tried
[11:56 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Searching for the code that chatgpt spat out I found the stackoverflow that it stole heh
[11:57 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I did look at terragen a long time ago. There is some other program I used to use but it has been so long that I've forgotten the name.
[11:57 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Bailiwick, perhaps.
[11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That's it. It wasn't all that good but it was ok for basic terrain stuff.
[11:59 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: on Mac a program called GraphicConverter will read
[11:59 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it's shareware, paid but not expensive
[11:59 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 16bit tiff can be loaded in Gimp and it can save it as well, so I was able to shift the terrain up changing contrast and it loaded it back in, so any grayscale you can convert to that should work. Just need to make sure to select no compression
[12:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: exif and ictp or whatever metadata seems to work fine, but is not needed either I think. The basic information about size and format are stored anyhow
[12:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I might look at the other loaders to see if I can make png work, bmp seems there is nothing or I haven't found it yet
[12:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The tiff one is ready for testing I suppose if anyone wants to play with that
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That is just for basic terrain height map information? Has anyone tried including parcel data?
[12:03 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Outside of a custom format not sure how that could work
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: we have a think called.. hmm hmmm oar...
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The 13 layer raw files for terrain included layers for parcel data and land for sale.
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: legacy wasteland
[12:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Custom format, which will just get nuked when you save it in anything that doesn't know how to use it or fails to ignore and put it back one to one
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Right. Not sure that was ever supported by the terrain loader.
[12:06 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I never looked where oars save that, might be partially in xml somewhere. Parcel data includes a lot of things that are too big to fit into any image format
[12:06 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The 13 layer format just included a way to show the parcels in a region. It didn't go beyond that.
[12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: stored as r32
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the hour. Does anyone have a different topic to talk about before some people need to start heading out?
[12:10 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not today
[12:10 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Cuga.
[12:11 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: got my SCSI working. had a bad drive corrupting the chain
[12:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Any one else? I can't stay much longer today. I have a family member coming to stay for a couple of weeks. They will be here any time between 20 minutes from now to before the top of the hour
[12:12 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, That will do it. Glad you got it sorted.
[12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: more classic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zR6t0WO7uA
[12:12 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Saboton reminded me a little of the band called Ghost.
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:13 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: \m/
[12:13 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: wha's that genre called?
[12:14 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: power metal symphonic metal perhaps
[12:14 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: kewl. need more. Was into prog metal but it faded away
[12:15 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing further that is OS related for today I will call this gathering to a close.
[12:15 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
