Chat log from the meeting on 2024-05-21

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[11:00 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:00 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm right on time for a change. :)
[11:00 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Ubit won't be here today, so I shall do the commits this past week since at least one of them is my fault as well hehe
[11:01 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester For the most part the big thing was fixing up the Postgres connector to work again with newer versions
[11:01 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It had been broken on newer nix systems and Postgres versions
[11:01 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I have managed to test that at least with Postgres 14 it does boot, no idea on runtime yet, that remains to be tested, so might still have runtime errors on prims save or something
[11:02 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Postgres currently is on version 16 so also not sure that will run yet, have to upgrade to that and test
[11:02 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird did you log in?
[11:02 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I have gone standalone all the way to the region prompt, haven't dared much further since that's enough for me to write migration code
[11:02 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird or jus start the region?
[11:03 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hello
[11:03 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Hi Lyr
[11:03 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I suspect it will work and boot all the way, but if it then survives we'll see. That's my plan for this week if all goes well
[11:03 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr
[11:03 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Great to see you
[11:03 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yeah, cause the missing cast only appeared on avatar login
[11:04 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird so even if it completely starts, it may still not be working, but we shall see
[11:04 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, ty for the update.
[11:04 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Joe.
[11:04 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester There were couple changes to casts on various things as stuff blew up. I think Ubit went through a lot of them, but yeah some might still be missing
[11:04 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Hello all.
[11:05 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Postgres migrations are a bit of a mess, I have to read through and see if some of that stuff even makes sense. Already had a few things that give me head scratches heh
[11:05 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Busy work mostly so just takes time
[11:06 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Also had a change on llRequestAgentData to try and retrieve a bit more data about users
[11:06 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester This made it a bit heavier, calling additional service to fetch data
[11:06 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I have the entire old grid db on a  PG version 15 instance   some test regions
[11:06 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird might try and spin it up
[11:06 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, which additional data is it requesting?
[11:07 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The original mantis 9130 was about getting names when the user is not local, which involving hg is always a bit iffy
[11:07 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Changed to request data from what should be griduser table
[11:08 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Also finally added the correct returns for DATA_PAYINFO which previously was not implemented
[11:09 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester These are things grid admins can set in useraccounts for userflags, both payment info on file, which is used for estate access as well and payment used, which isn't used for anything
[11:09 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Requesting that now should return the correct values so you can test whether a user has those set
[11:10 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:10 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester With profiles it might not show if you just set it, since that data is cached
[11:11 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Digging through an out of heap error Ubit noticed we didn't have anything to get the color of a linked prim, so that function was added
[11:11 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester osGetLinkColor returning a vector for the color
[11:11 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Still need to make the wiki page for it heh
[11:12 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was almost about to ask if the wiki had been updated. :)
[11:12 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That's it for commits this week
[11:12 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ty for that summary, Vincent.
[11:14 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Does anyone have any questions?
[11:14 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: I'm good - juggling a bit here
[11:15 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, I hope you are juggling chainsaws and fire brands. You need to pay full attention when juggling those items. ;)
[11:15 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: s/are/are not/
[11:15 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester lol
[11:17 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo laughs
[11:17 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: I had a birthday, but class continues to go on, so juggling both *laughs*
[11:17 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, any thing you want to say on the viewer front?
[11:18 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird not really - May this year is a crazy series of public holidays, so have not done anything since last week
[11:19 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, np.
[11:19 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird only thing is that LL seems to be moving on at express speed on pushing changes
[11:19 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: This past weekend was a long weekend for me. I didn't get all that much done.
[11:19 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird very hard for anyone to keep up
[11:19 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester LL pushing out features to distract from all the bugs
[11:19 AM PT]  Tess JL: THey've really shifted into a new gear over there
[11:19 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I've had a major setback with Sharpview. The underlying graphics library has been abandoned.
[11:19 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird ouch
[11:20 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird what does that mean?
[11:20 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Not the first time we have seen LL putting out new features when there are bugs they should be fixing.
[11:20 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: That I won't get performance fixes and enhancements i really need unless I go into the rend3 code myself.
[11:20 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: And that guy doesn't write comments.
[11:21 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester You are supposed to write comments? ;)
[11:21 AM PT]  Tess JL: There is no alternative you can use?
[11:22 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: No, unfortunately. The Rust 3D graphics ecosystem is both sparse and unfinished.
[11:22 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I listened to an interview with the new owner, and it seems he is pushing the LL dev team to produce features that increase retention and user engagemen. Only then will there be more money for development
[11:22 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, no comments at all? :P
[11:22 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There's nothing other than OpenGL that Just Works.
[11:22 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Given how complex rendering Prims is in the first place with all the transforms was the library even going to work natively?
[11:23 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Wouldn't surprise me if you ended up having to make changes to it to get that working
[11:24 AM PT]  Tess JL: Prims shouldn't be particularly tricky. By the time they reach the render engine, they should be converted to polylist meshes anyway
[11:25 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Prim to mesh I had working two years ago.
[11:25 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: In Sharpview, everything is converted to meshes. There's no direct drawing at all other than the 2D UI.
[11:26 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Just clicking through some source files of that library, there are some comments, not a lot and not very descriptive, but there is some at least
[11:26 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes, some comments. You want to work on it?
[11:27 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[11:27 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Rust is not my cup of tea at all, looks to much like javascript
[11:27 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I stay cozy with C#, nice and safe
[11:27 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester heh
[11:28 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I'm not giving up. But this is a big setback.
[11:28 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird sorry to hear that
[11:29 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.
[11:29 AM PT]  Tess JL: Speaking of viewers, does anybody know if LL is still working on a new Vulkan based one?
[11:29 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Well that announcement came two days ago, so I wouldn't be too scared yet. If he maintains it and checks pull requests that might work out, bit early to tell
[11:30 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester 1k stars and plenty of forks, so there is definite interest in it
[11:30 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Thanks, Vincent. I have some pull request in mind. Cone-type lights, for example. Right now, the only options are point and sun.
[11:30 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I am ok to work with C# code. I have more trouble getting the build environment set up. I have an abandoned project I want to take over but I can't get the environment set up to try building it.
[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Tess, the focus is internally on the mobile viewer, which is in Unify. Hence the frantic changes and PBR push
[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Unity
[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird not Unify or cource, haha
[11:31 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Oh, if you haven't heard, the mobile viewer will not be allowed in adult regions in SL.
[11:31 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: What mobile devices are they thinking people will use to access SL?
[11:32 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: IoS and Android phones.
[11:32 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I still wonder how that is supposed to work with udp traffic and flaky connections... well not like SL is the most stable anyways
[11:32 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Well, the entire child avatar debackle is currently chewing their behinds
[11:32 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There's a version being tested. It's real. I have no inside info, though.
[11:33 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Getting it to run on tablets I understand. Don't see the point trying to make it run on phones. The screen size is too small.
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Cue the scene from Silicon Valley with the phones blowing up
[11:33 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Battery life measured in minutes
[11:33 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird screen is fine for some functions,a dn for iOS you can always send to or connect a bigger screen
[11:34 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, if you did that it isn't exactly a portable setup.
[11:34 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird no, but there are tons of game titles that runs absolutely fine on iPhones and sell well
[11:34 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right.
[11:35 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I have no idea how mobile SL will work out. Could be huge, could be a total flop. Depends on the launch.
[11:35 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Would be easier to just stream things, install nomachine on your phone, connect to desktop. Added bonus of having it not throw you out if you lose connection
[11:35 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird It depends if the backend can keep up
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird if half a million users try to log on on luanch date, it will crash and burn
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird launch*
[11:36 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Only if they're aimed at the same regions.
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird ha
[11:36 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester More mobile phone zombies running into traffic lights
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird ever tried to be in SL when there are cocurrency of over 60k?
[11:38 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have a couple of Android tablets but I wouldn't try running a viewer on them. Good luck to them. We may hear more interesting news as time goes one.
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Apple just launced iPads with the M4 processor
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester MS also announced some arm crap finally
[11:38 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: s/one/on/
[11:38 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: That's probably enough engine for this stuff.
[11:39 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: But you will need a really good data plan.
[11:39 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: bah. My fingers aren't always typing what my brain is thinking today.
[11:39 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird c'mon we ran SL on PowerPC chips and 64k video memory back in the day
[11:39 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Not with modern meshes.
[11:39 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Pretty slideshows sure are pretty
[11:39 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird sure current SL is more demanding, but then again
[11:40 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The system requirements are higher today than in the past.
[11:40 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird not with prims and textures and anims and sound and ...
[11:40 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester A 8x8 var on a phone... rendering all that terrain... for when the winter gets cold lol
[11:40 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird sure, but the mobile chips are running rings around yesteryear's desktop chips
[11:41 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There's a huge population of young people who have good phones but no or weak desktops.
[11:41 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird SL does not have var, so they don't need to design for that
[11:41 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: SL needs to reach them somehow.
[11:41 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Exactly Joe.
[11:41 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Outside the US, it's even more mobile-oriented.
[11:42 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Apparently all the adult content and gacha games are not drawing enough to sustain the AWS bills rofl
[11:42 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird pretty much all of Asia, Eastern Europe, Africa is mobile only
[11:42 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird they never had land lines, to they only have mobile infrastructure
[11:42 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: No adult for mobile. Recent LL announcement.
[11:43 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It's hard to take LL serious when they write code like they are trying to apply to become a Bethesda games studio xD
[11:43 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, that sort of makes sense.
[11:44 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Not LL's choice. Apple and Google app store policies.
[11:44 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird app will not be llowed in the app stores unless
[11:44 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Only softcore stuff like all the gacha games on there and of course violence against fruits
[11:44 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:45 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird using fruit knives
[11:45 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Wait until after the US elections to see how regulation in that area plays out.
[11:45 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester How are they going to enforce that? By user agent? Special protocols?
[11:45 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: So no Halo games or other combat oriented ones?
[11:46 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Combat good, sex bad - Apple and Google.
[11:46 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester On android hacking is quite common for all sorts of games, just a matter of time before someone starts digging
[11:46 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird America: combat and war good – Europe: sex good
[11:47 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Anything else important today? Ubit's not here, so not much tech stuff.
[11:48 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I presume the mobile app will not be open source, and then there is the licensing of Unity, that makes it no go for opensim
[11:49 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: As far as I know, it will not be open source.
[11:49 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yeah, that is my impression too
[11:49 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: By the way, I'll probably open source Sharpview this summer.
[11:49 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I need to reach the point where development is always on branches.
[11:49 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Neat, I can try my hand at some Rust then
[11:49 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, that is good news. I hope it goes well.
[11:50 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: It should. I'm trying to reach the point where others can work on this. Goal is move, view, stand, sit, fly. region cross, good performance, avatars are still blocks.
[11:50 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hm...if you are working in Rust do you need some De-oxit? ;)
[11:51 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Currently have performance problems, jank problems, objects not appearing problems.
[11:51 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Plus Rend3 crashes.
[11:52 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I hope you get those sorted without too much difficulty. Do let us know when you make the announcement is is available as Open Source.
[11:53 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I will. The bug list isn' that long.
[11:53 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Yet...
[11:53 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Implementing all the other features is going to be fun
[11:53 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Though by then it being open source you'll have help
[11:53 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right. Avatars, PBR, voice...
[11:53 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird moving target too
[11:54 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right. I've been holding off on PBR until Firestorm has it.
[11:54 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Let them work through the problems of making it work for both OS and SL.
[11:55 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I can't do mirrors, though. No support in the graphics stack.
[11:55 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester world map, search, permission windows, inventory management, screenshots, browser... Those are all real fun in tpv code having looked at Firestorm
[11:55 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I know.
[11:55 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird just getting the avatar rendering should be prio one
[11:56 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird without, it becomes sort of pointless
[11:56 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird IMO
[11:56 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I might do intermediate avatars, where avatars appear as those bendy wooden models artists use.
[11:56 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, that would be fun to see
[11:56 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: The whole clothing system is a big project.
[11:57 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester And a mess
[11:57 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Of bugs.. er features
[11:57 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes.
[11:57 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yeah it would be fun, but SL has largely developed into a doll house where wearing and decorating all apsects of your avatar seems to be the main driver for many
[11:57 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: anyway, have to go, next meeting.
[11:57 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird it is also the driver of the "shopping seasons"
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird cheers Joe
[11:58 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Thanks.
[11:58 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester T shirt and pants... you need more than that? ;)
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird not me
[11:59 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird boots maybe
[11:59 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:59 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester My avatar owns more pairs than I do...
[11:59 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird the default avatar foot is not exactly good looking, haha
[12:00 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Neither are the square paddle wheels attached to my ankles
[12:00 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any other OpenSim topics for today?
[12:00 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird that was the ones I was thinking about, with a maybe 64x64 bit texture area
[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, I hope you do manage to get some additional people to help with coding. Several of the other features to be implemented are not small tasks.
[12:01 PM PT]  Tess JL: Ummm, JOe has left, Andrew
[12:02 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Getting a browser in for moap
[12:02 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That'll be fun
[12:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: He was hiding behind my chat window. I couldn't see him.
[12:02 PM PT]  Tess JL: Awww, that was sneaky of him. ;-)
[12:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:03 PM PT]  Tess JL: I better go too. Have a great week everybody!
[12:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Tess. Thanks for dropping by. Have a goodweek.
[12:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Gone before I could type that. I'm 2 for 2. :)
[12:04 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today I'll call this meeting to a close.
[12:04 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird Have a great week everyone
[12:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: In non-OS topics, I've made good progress on the implementation of a Forth like language for a 6809 processor over the past couple weeks.
[12:06 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Only time I ever encountered Forth was in Minecraft and it just befuddled me more than anything
[12:07 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: They use Forth In Minecraft? On the user side or system side?
[12:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester A mod used it for computers you could program, I think it switched to lua or something now
[12:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Haven't played since MS bought and messed that up
[12:08 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I only have about 12 words still to implement of what I want to include and of what I have written, only 4 words are not fully tested and known working.
[12:08 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Thank you!  I must head back to class. *smiles* Take care
[12:08 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Lyr. Have fun.
[12:08 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo waves and grins
[12:08 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I should try getting some work done. I haven't been very productive this past week.
[12:09 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It's some stack based thing right? Pushing vars on that and then manipulating the registers. That's too much assembly for my tiny brain
[12:09 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, ah, a mod. ok. Yes, it is stack based. The 6809 is an ideal CPU for running Forth.
[12:10 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, my implementation is a little under 3500 lines of 6809 assembly with some Forth mixed in. :)
[12:10 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That includes comments. I do use them in my code.
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Having to remember where you put a variable and writing programs by then using the stack to output data is quite the brainfcuk for someone that didn't grow up with 8 bit computing
[12:12 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: One fun bit of coding in Forth was implementing a memory dump routine. Things can get interesting when you typically only have easy access to the top 3 or 4 items on the stack and they aren't always in the order you want them.
[12:13 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That would probably frustrate me to give up. Most I have gone into that was using basic gates to write a binary encoder
[12:13 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester As in just or and xor etc.
[12:14 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks nods to Vincent
[12:14 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Hats off for going that far down to bare metal. It's fascinating
[12:14 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That isn't too hard to do but it can be easier when you look at the datasheet for an existing encoder chip. They will often show you the internal implementation of the function.
[12:15 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I watch a lot of the 8 bit stuff on youtube, old arcade games and such. Not my world, but I find it fascinating what is possible with relatively primitive hardware and how efficient it was used
[12:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I went even further down. I designed and built the 6809 board that will run the code.
[12:15 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Having constraints on that and working around them can be a lot of fun if you find tricks
[12:16 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I sometimes think programmers today should be required to do some programming for systems with limited resources. It makes you get very creative in how you use what you have.
[12:16 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Should force them to write lsl, that is enough torture at times
[12:16 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:17 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm writing a program for an 8-bit micro controller where I process GPS position data. I have about 4K of program memory and about 256 bytes of RAM.
[12:17 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I do mean bytes of RAM.
[12:18 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Heh that's how much I had couple days ago when my browser decided to eat it all
[12:18 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:19 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: It was fun working out how to store 4 position reports in 256 bytes when the two records for one report exceeds 256 bytes.
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