Chat log from the meeting on 2024-05-14

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[11:02 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: need a smaller chair humbletim?
[11:03 AM PT]  humbletim metaverse: hi. i'm good thanks. :)
[11:04 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:04 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Great to see you, HumbleTim
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well so.. abotu last week code changes...
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i did update the connector for pgsql databases
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: a pure blind update, since i can't test it
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i also made a change on UUID casting
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: gainv did mention there was a old issue on that and possible was that..
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: need to wait to see feedback :)
[11:07 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Should hopefully have some test results by the end of this week
[11:07 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I don't have any simulators up and running on postgres for the time being, so will get that going again to test
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: when i changed the lludp packats dispatch i lost one..   it is back again :)
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( the one used on change group roles )
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: looking to lbsa console noticed a error from llBase64ToInteger
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and in fact it was not good...  not even checking for empty input
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and also not handling less than 6 chars
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so i replaced its code..
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no idea with a athena body or other things use that..  but well they do ( and failed)
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: also added some ice on some xml decoder dictionaries
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: using dotnet 8 frozendictionary
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: supposed to save a few ns on each read
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well that was it..
[11:13 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird so it became snappier
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well also made some changes to avoid that uglu dll copy od system.drawing
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but sent all to trash
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: tghe copy is fine for now
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the alternative is a big and not much reliable mess
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ms does want to kill linux desktop apps
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: it seems
[11:15 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird of course it does
[11:15 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( their next GUI thing MAIU suports all but linux also )
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but their dependencies load code is a lto worse than net framework or mono
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: basicly wants all to use stupid nuget
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they do provide a api funtion to load a assembly from a path
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ..loadFrom(path)
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: then that crap  parses teh file, extracts the assembly name and goes look for it on its predefined list of locations..  and ignores our path if it finds one
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bahh whatever..
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the ugly copy stays for now :)
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so what news do you have about opensimulator?
[11:20 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird not much. Published a tiny update to my Mac viewer
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: NICE
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ooops
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nice :)
[11:20 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester New migrations are progressing, at code hardening phase to make sure it fails safely and so on. Writing migrations and schema files. Not sure when that'll be fully ready
[11:21 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Now that postgres works again I can at least try to implement those routines
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you mean on your grid code?
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: err ive no idea if it works!!
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: just made blind changes..
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sure the dll we had was from 2013 or so
[11:22 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Shouldn't take long to figure out, I still have the postgres vm somewhere
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oh i also have a mssing comand on a msql migration
[11:23 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird what pg version did you test with last?
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but seems it had no impact on MYsql or maria
[11:23 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I used version11.x in prod, but latest version are like 15.9 or more
[11:23 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Uh I don't recall. The problem happened around version 12 or so
[11:23 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yea
[11:23 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester In combination with latest ubuntu 22 at the time it was a fail
[11:24 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I made various tests and attempted to get a working dll combination from nuget
[11:24 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It did eventually connect only to fail on the guid uuid thingy
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I think it will fail on more for version 15.x
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird we shall see
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ty :)
[11:25 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Not being able to run it on windows at all since it just refuses to auth, so writing migration code takes more effort going in blind
[11:26 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Tests I have made so far look promising, lots more bailing out when the tables are not what they supposed to be, lots more verbose
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ahh i also did add "ssl mode = disable"  to the connector strings examples
[11:26 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird good
[11:26 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Yeah the cert failure was the initial problem which then despite telling it not to validate still failed on that
[11:27 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird MS does not take a no for an answer
[11:28 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Well they are busy trying to cram ads into everything so they probably can't hear the screams of everyone over the rustling of chains
[11:28 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird lol
[11:28 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:28 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal exactly lol
[11:29 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i tried to move to ubuntu in 2010 or so.. it was a big fail :)
[11:29 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I can't wait for autoupdate having ads plastered all over
[11:29 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: loved when it refused to install nvidia drivers bc they where close source
[11:30 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The automatic update windows does is just a scheduled task, which you can brick to make it fail to start without it noticing
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i killed the stupid scripts and installed them anyway, ofc
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but it was all a huge fail as desktop machine
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but who nows.. maybe it is time to try again
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: MS is getting really bad
[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird they will find a way to make it notice and place an ad there
[11:31 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they are going to force bitlock
[11:31 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I got away from Ubuntu when they changed to a desktop that used Unity (IIRC).
[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird hopefully someone purchase and ad to upgrade your system to say Ubuntu and off you go
[11:31 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I installed a new machine on 24.04 and so far I am not as impressed as I thought I'd be, but it's more relevant for servers and what they ship with as apparently a lot of folks install dependencies for OpenSim via the mirrors and not the software vendors repos
[11:32 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Ubuntu Maté 22 seems to be pretty stable for me
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ppl are telling that next big update wll turn on bitlock
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so our disks contents becames basicly propriety of MS
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester MS lately run by petulant toddlers throwing tantrums
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well lets see .. they may give up with reactions
[11:34 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Let's hope
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( and do it one month later not telling )
[11:35 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird my only MS dependency is dotnet for oopensim. otherwise none
[11:35 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird opensim even
[11:36 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Let's see what else. Oh tangentially related. I did some spring cleaning again. Found a load of notecards made by scripts that were no longer in use. Some apparently use notecards as temporary storage and overwrite them so frequently it makes a mess
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well we can alwasy go back to MSDOS 4.0 that is now opensource
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :P
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: fun..  4.0 is something no one used..
[11:36 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I just saw a video about that.
[11:36 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Searching assets table for notecards sharing same name sorted by count and working out where they came from
[11:36 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo chuckles
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yead dave garage
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird can you make a simulator run in it?
[11:37 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, yup
[11:37 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester We may be able to get an older version of OpenSim to run on Win95 now that .net 2.0 has been backported to it
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nahhh win95 was BAD
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Probably blow up on all sorts of system calls it doesn't have as well
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that time the os was win NT
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird doesn't win95 instantly get infected when connected to internet?
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: even xp now
[11:38 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I've heard people say that but I never had any real problem with either WinME or Win95.
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel word with 6 pages jsut did crash on win95 :(
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not on NT with 600
[11:39 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I never used MS Word.
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: 95 was a mess of hibrid code
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: old msdos with a few 32bit  things
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: while NT was new..  ( from work with IBM on os2 etc )
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the ms does hibrid was gone on XP that was mostly NT  or something
[11:42 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but yeah a XP connected to net gets a ton of trojans installed in a few minutes
[11:43 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester There is still software for it to allow it online and secure it, cause... yeah some still use it and the embedded versions, which is just bonkers
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i had that once installing a 95 on a  friend..
[11:44 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: had to kiil the damm things by hand until the end of isntall and addign a anti virus
[11:44 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I hope your freind did not get infected after
[11:44 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel i had no license to give hom NT :)
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: to give him..
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and this was in win95 times.. not today
[11:46 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal late 90s
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:47 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal for better or for worse, I avoided Windows my whole life
[11:47 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal although I used it at work and can get around as a user
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird same
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: out pc music was the analog modem soung
[11:48 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I've managed to escape from Windows, I'm all linux now.
[11:48 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal dual-boot Mac and Unix since 1997
[11:48 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: Mac
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: jezz mac?? apple is a lot worse than ms :P
[11:49 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird it is not
[11:49 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal worse or better, depending how yoiu grade
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc it is.. apple just owns you :P
[11:49 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Apple code at least works even if it sometimes doesn't make sense, MS... yeah toddlers, remember
[11:49 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird that is a bigh myth and meme
[11:50 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal has changed a lot in 20 yrs, is now BSD under the hood
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeat tell that to Louis Rossmann
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:51 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird he tries to fix the HW and not actually use the working HW
[11:51 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Apple doesn't make that easy.
[11:51 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: We have 10 minutes left in the hour. Is there anything else to talk about related to OpenSim for today?
[11:52 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I am glad the EU drags Apple kicking and screaming forward lately
[11:52 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird they have become annoyingly full of themselves
[11:52 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal they might get hit with anti-trust and get broken up
[11:52 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: yes
[11:52 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester MS please be next, please be next
[11:53 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo chuckles
[11:53 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird it is very difficult to hit them with antitrust because they are not majority player in any market
[11:53 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Reject modern OS, embrace fortran and assembly
[11:53 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: LOL
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ms also got kicked by eu a few times
[11:53 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks grins at Vincent
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and also in usa
[11:54 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Remember, a bad programmer can write FORTRAN in any language.
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: a point usa almost spit them in 2
[11:54 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird try write your postgres driver in fortran
[11:54 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:54 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: FoRTRAN is still used by the GIS crowd
[11:55 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal punch cards?
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: tons og good libs made in fortran in years
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and possible even today fortran compilers do better optimization job
[11:55 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo chuckles
[11:55 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: I've got some punch cards on my fridge.  My mother uses them for note paper
[11:55 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Hm I wonder if lsl can emulate fortran, that'd be a fun project if time slowed down by a factor of 10x lol
[11:55 AM PT]  humbletim metaverse: i've been looking into how hop:// URLs work; still investigating on all sides of the equation so not much to report yet (though have submitted a PR to firestorm that might help in certain cases of partial Region name matches preventing traversal).
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc you could try use ADA
[11:56 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal lets port opensim to it!
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: to ADA?
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm i do know a ADA coder...
[11:56 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Thanks, HumbleTim
[11:56 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, I have a couple of Fortran programs written on punch cards in a box near me.
[11:56 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: kewl
[11:56 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo snorts at Ubit
[11:56 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Am I weird for never having used a hop link. I always travel via world map search
[11:56 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I have a computer museum with punched cards, punched tape, a HUGE 3 megabyte disk pack (huge in size, not in storage)
[11:57 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: dam we
[11:57 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: damn we're old
[11:57 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird the next thing you're gonna say is you have a card punch in your office
[11:57 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: humbletim, sounds good. Let us know how you get on with that.
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: original ibm one was the size of a fridge no?
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I run my backup to punch cards
[11:58 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester rofl
[11:58 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Truck pulls up outside your house "here is my iar"
[11:58 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I use a sharpened stick to punch the cards
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i don't punch..  just use a pencil
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yup :-)
[11:58 AM PT]  humbletim metaverse: vincent-- that's not weird; a lot of the same viewer code paths and lookups seem involved whether hop://ing or mapping. andrew -- will do!
[12:00 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester When you say it doesn't work on partial names I think why would it, it should never assume what you meant. No exact match, send to search and return potential results for user to pick
[12:00 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Then again the world map search is also often returning odd results
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird odd results how?
[12:01 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal world map seems the most reliable
[12:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: viewers do a mess
[12:01 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal there are times when hop URL or LMs don't work across grids
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes
[12:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester You search for "Sand" and instead of giving you the "Sandbox" as top result you get "Besand" as top result
[12:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Stuff along those lines
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: luck you don't get sahara
[12:02 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Haven't quite worked out which end is causing that though
[12:03 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird this happens on osg?
[12:03 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester If I search for something I would expect the results to be starts-with, contains-word, contains part of word with a letter removed, if you want to be especially verbose with results
[12:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, it used to only return results where the string you were searching for were at the start of a region name. That meant you wouldn't be able to find places such as My Sandbox when looking for a sand box.
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: viewers cache and have own search on it
[12:04 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Problem is now it returns the other results first rather than the starts with match first and the rest down the order
[12:04 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal viewer issue?
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: dont thing we waste time sorting
[12:05 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: hehe
[12:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Depends on how you define a match. Your example is a match. Just not the one you wanted. The order may be up to either the OpenSIm code or the viewer. One or the other may be sorting the results.
[12:05 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester There are loads of little things in FS I would adjust or give the option to adjust at least
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( fs or dayturn..  ;) )
[12:06 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I think my viewer will find regions with partial match, but I have to check back on the grid
[12:06 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird Out on HG it only finds starts with
[12:06 PM PT]  humbletim metaverse: it's a symphony of interpretations -- searching for "Sand" may make sense to include Sandy Beach as a candidate, but resolving a hard-coded hop://grid:port/Sand/1/2/3 URL perhaps makes sense to expect exact match or nothing
[12:07 PM PT]  Tess JL: How does search work if a region name has non-English characters?
[12:07 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird hard coded hop should be exact match
[12:07 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal can you use hop URLs in the world map search?
[12:07 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hop is a fs thing
[12:07 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird region cannot have non-English chars
[12:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I had it the other day I searched for "Welcome" and the first result was a hg url rather than local region named that...
[12:08 PM PT]  Tess JL: Ah, so not many Norwegian region names possible then?
[12:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That things match is fine, it's the order that is rather unusual that gets me
[12:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: as i said..  viewers cache and give answer from it
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird not with æøå, no
[12:09 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, does the order appear to be random or alphabetical?
[12:09 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird Sandnes is a Norwegian name ;-)
[12:09 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Issue has been around for a long time right?
[12:09 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sandes are very nice things to eat :p
[12:10 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes, but you don't eat Sandnes
[12:10 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Andrew, it seems alphabetical strictly speaking I suppose, but why it would sort a whole hg url above a shorter region name is odd
[12:10 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird there was a TV series where they had used Sadness in stead of Sandnes
[12:10 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, that may be a question for the viewer devs.
[12:10 PM PT]  Tess JL: I better log off now. Have a lovely week everybody
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Maybe I google too much as well and just grown used to that
[12:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Tess when *poof* before I could say goodbye.
[12:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: s/when/went/
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Sand, for me, should return Sandbox, Besand, Sane, http://blah/sandbox
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sane ? insane :)
[12:12 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:12 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Starts-with, contains, contains-partial, hg. Somewhat logical, to me at least, so that might not mean much
[12:12 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird sane does not start with sand
[12:12 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird by anyway
[12:13 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird but*
[12:13 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I wrote a websearch like that, cut first or last char of query and find matches, so Sand becomes San or and
[12:13 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird Imma gonna hop
[12:13 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Gavin. Thanks for dropping by.
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: cya
[12:13 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird cheers
[12:14 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I need to head out too
[12:14 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: It is now quarter past the hour and about time to start wrapping up this meeting. Any last minute items for today?
[12:15 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester humbletim if you could add a small switch for showing events as grid time rather than local timezones I'll buy you a beer :)
[12:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, I'll call todays meeting to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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