Chat log from the meeting on 2024-04-16

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[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: welcome everyone
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: about changes..  there where a few commits
[11:07 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird you have been busy
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not many
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: fixed a bug on robust ssl support..
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: was creating shared webclients, before reading the needed options.. coff cofff
[11:08 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I wondered about the DespatchRegionInfo cap, as that was added to the viewer code in 2007?
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: possible..  i added it now :)
[11:09 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes :-)
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: better later than ever ;)
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: it just replaces a lludp thing
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: adding 2 more fields now, one we do not have
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i also added a few new entries to simulator features
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: fixing ones we had for materials
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: also added one for future viewers limiting textures to 1024px
[11:12 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird LL seems to be going all in for 2048
[11:12 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes.
[11:12 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester To be fair viewers already do display of that size, just don't allow upload
[11:12 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: That's OK. Viewers don't have to load more resolutoin than they need.
[11:13 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It has some uses, albeit niche
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we had some modules only for diva's old viewwer and they where enabled by default.. added to them standards enable from config and disabled them by defauls
[11:13 AM PT]  Web Rain: Hi there :)
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well sorry a missed last meeting...  looking to the log..
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no.. we do not have a way to see the physics bounding box, unless what viewer shows..
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: anyways that will be all wrong on bullet.. in same cases..  bc bullet does things its own way
[11:14 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal thats what I was noticing
[11:14 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal ok so expected behavior ok
[11:15 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: with fs you can see the mesh used for physics
[11:15 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on the edit blabla tabs
[11:15 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:15 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: it will not show for sculpt maps and normal prims
[11:16 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal OK so a linkset of normal prims with mix of physics types...
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( ubode can do sculpts collision with some resolutions as you know )
[11:16 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I haven't tested it with ubode, will retest
[11:16 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal all messed on bullet
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yes physcis shape type is mostly wrong on bullet
[11:17 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal or, perhaps not messedm just not showing
[11:17 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal thanks for clarifying
[11:17 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I have that too. You can view the physics
[11:17 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Does it work on bullet?
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: remember bullet will use the VISUAL MESH on same cases
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is.. well a legacy decision, lets say
[11:18 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird does it work on bullet? – I'd say it does
[11:18 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I'll give Dayturn a try for that
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what does work on bullet?
[11:19 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal actual bounding surfaces?
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no there are no bounding surfaces
[11:19 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal ok, thats what I was asking about last week
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in fact at most physics uses axis aligned boxes..
[11:20 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal what about a 45 degree ramp?
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: as i said.. not sure if viewers to try so show any
[11:20 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I am sure my viewer will show that correctly
[11:20 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal OK, so "physics shapes" option in menu
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: it will not :P
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: outchs that is HEAVY
[11:21 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Developer -> Render Metadata -> Physics Shapes  -- that is what I was using
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: shows physics for al prims
[11:21 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird no, Features tab in edit object
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yes on edit is a lot better
[11:21 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal ohh ok thank you, I will check that
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: think it does not show normal prims or sculps
[11:22 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I was getting other issues when physics enabled, so was hope to see without edit window open
[11:22 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal but thats ok I will take whats available :)
[11:23 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I hardly have any sculpts at all on my grid so can't tell
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ps does that reading the asset directly
[11:23 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird have been trying to get rid of all
[11:23 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ♫~♫ Applause ♫~♫
[11:23 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: -=
[11:23 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal bounding area of linkset of mesh and normal prims only
[11:23 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Um... that was my cat walking across my keyboard.
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so you you select shape type convex you will see convex
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( ubode will do that )
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bullet.. who knows...
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird sculpts even have physics?
[11:24 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal what about physics type none
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and those mesh ppl did upload withou data for physics you will see them as ubode does them
[11:24 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal will a normal prim with type none be left out of the bounding area
[11:24 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal pf a linkset
[11:25 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal in visualizer
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bounding area is a confusing concept
[11:25 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal regardless, the message I hear is that theres no way to get actual physics mesh and see visually
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: each engine does first collision detection steps  using its own idea of bounnd boxes
[11:25 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal especially on physics enabled object
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some may have one for a linkset.. others, just for the prims..
[11:27 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc  you can see the physics mesh.. we just told how
[11:27 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird can a prim be set to physics none, except making it phantom?
[11:27 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal yes
[11:27 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I mean a bult in prim
[11:27 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yes it can except root prim
[11:27 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal yes
[11:27 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird ok
[11:27 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal select a child prim and eset it to physics type None
[11:27 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal that prim acts like phantom
[11:27 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no
[11:27 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal on a non-phantom linkset
[11:28 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: phantom does collide with terrain
[11:28 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: None does not
[11:28 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal ah good to know
[11:28 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal to prevent stuff from falling through ghte ground
[11:28 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well as sl spec and ubode.. no idea abt bullet
[11:28 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Technically you can change the phantom and physics via script in a way that makes it fall through terrain, though not sure why you'd want to
[11:28 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird it will visually show it in my viewer for the child prim
[11:29 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: don't think you can do that on ubode..  but .. who knows..  bugs are known to happen ;)
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: abotu gravity..
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: forget
[11:30 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Think that works with both engines
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: if you change it you will get into trouble
[11:30 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Taoism: Bugs Happen.
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bc viewer do expect it to be 9.8m/s and vertical
[11:31 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Only really need on per-object basis, and as attachment
[11:31 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal parachute, etc
[11:31 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal so yeah, nothing going to happen until avatar engine revisited
[11:31 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: na try to move a avatar with scripts will not work  (unless it is sitting )
[11:32 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester You cannot turn yourself into a marshmallow even if you force the physics type. The avatar attachment state always overwrites those flags
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is bc avatars have own motors on phycis
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that will fight that
[11:32 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Unless you use applyimpulse
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not even that
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel i think i add a few hooks that temporary disable the motor
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester You can physically move an avatar and make em hover and stuff
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but by default expect that to not work
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( and that depends on the physics engine )
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: another problem on changing gravity is that opensim had it fixed all over most the code
[11:35 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: even some "constants" on physics actually do depend on mass and gravity
[11:35 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester llPushObject(llDetectedKey(agentNum), force, ZERO_VECTOR, 0); inside a sensor
[11:35 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ubode is a lot more cleaner on that.. i just replaced most those constants
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: by less constant things :p'
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but as i said.. viewers have own idea of gravity.. and not be happy if region is diferent
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well think i should shutup now :p
[11:37 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Playing with physics is fun and dangerous, but that's what's fun about it
[11:37 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I have a game in which an avatar stands inside a giant hollow ellipsoid, physics enabled. The game is an "egg race", the avatar runs inside the egg and the ellipsoid gets pulled along. In OS Im seeing the avatar's legs push through the bottom,
[11:38 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal and if theres a force preventing egg movement, in OS the avatar pushes through the wall
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what os?  bullet or ubode? :p
[11:38 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal works on both :)
[11:38 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal but with different quirks
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and object positions are sent via udp.. may desync
[11:39 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal wondering why legs push through egg floor
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and some objects overlap is a it allowed...
[11:40 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal seems to happem sometimes lol
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: collision sepaartion forces may also have limits
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and the avatar motor is very strong
[11:40 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal is there a feature on the ellipsoid that could reduce the push-through
[11:40 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal is it related to thickness, density, etc
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so it may override the separation
[11:41 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester "Technically" you can adjust the intervals for position updates and other information being sent, even change the physics fps, though I would not recommend that
[11:41 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Best case things just work as before, worst case you get loads of cpu load and shot into space
[11:41 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal yeah that is more global, hoping for a per-object solution
[11:41 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal but this is bleeding edge lol
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel region heartbeat should be set to 50fps matching physics simulation set
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: step
[11:42 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sadly windows will have jitter  bc thread time resolution is 15.?? ms
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but better than stock 100ms step :p
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ppl ignore those config options
[11:44 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: defaults are only good for dancing regions
[11:44 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester They are touchy things, certain values make for some entertaining results
[11:44 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel they are no that clear on ini either :)
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: physics step of 20ms is ok
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no much gain on 10ms on ubode, currently, for example
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: FrameTime = 0.0909  is the hearbeat rate
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you can set it to like 0.02
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: BUT
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oyu should increase some of the floowing settings, so their rate stays similar
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: UpdateObjectsEveryNFrames = 1  should stay 1
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: UpdateAgentsEveryNFrames = 1 alsoe
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: UpdateEntityMovementEveryNFrames = 1
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: also
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: UpdateCoarseLocationsEveryNFrames = 50  should be like 250
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: etc..
[11:50 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Also exponentially grows the cpu requirements when multiple objects are physical, cause it's more physics events and network data etc. Double the update rate, quadruple cpu
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: for reference old aurora for did default to 45 real fps
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel depends on what is happening on the region
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but sure.. uses more cpu
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but that defiens the rate of object updates sent to region
[11:52 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: etc
[11:52 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: err sent to viewer...
[11:52 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: stats will keep should 55fps !!
[11:52 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bc as you remember i made that "normalized" fps..
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ie same no matter the config
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so when we do teleport  we get same kind of numbers  bivining similar info about possible lag
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: there was  a big WAR back in 2015 :p
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: if you remember
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well details..
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: there is a option somewhere to make stats show "real fps"
[11:56 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal stats are real fps?
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: by default "normalized"
[11:57 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I watch mine dip below 55 when heavy lag
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and opensim does not have a fps as sl
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: has a heartbeat that does control a few things..
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and that by defualt runs around 11 times per second
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: 10 lets say
[11:58 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal not if heartbeat is below 10 lol
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: FrameTime = 0.0909  is the hearbeat rate  [11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well if not overloaded ofc
[11:59 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I've watched it go as low as 1, and then recover back to 55. Seems to be close to real world
[11:59 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal perhaps not exact
[11:59 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yes 5..5 times close
[11:59 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :P
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: as i said oyu cna change Framerate to 0.02 and see the dif
[12:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( faster than that is waste )
[12:01 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal good to know, nice to know how to do, though I'm not going to risk all the other pphysics things in my region by making those global changes
[12:01 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal just to get a harder egg floor LOL
[12:02 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird :-)
[12:02 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal but thank you for reference info
[12:02 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal very useful
[12:02 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird would it not be delightful seeing all your meshes and prims start floating or rolling around?
[12:02 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Most fun I have is just sitting on a physical sphere and rolling around a region, it's strangely comical
[12:03 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal yes, or inside
[12:03 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird :-))
[12:03 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird never thought of that
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i did walk around inside a hollow physica sphere
[12:03 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal make it hollow and a script to unseat after sitting
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: kinda worked
[12:03 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal see how many avis you can fit inside
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: only one
[12:04 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal nope
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: remember their motors
[12:04 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal a big hollow ellipsoid
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you will have collisions mess if more than one
[12:04 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal with enough room for several
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: NO
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( unless if sititng )
[12:05 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal even if holloe sphere is huge?
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: do i need to repeat that avatars have own motors ?
[12:05 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Ubit being pedantic. Yes the way it wants to force you to stop moving requires a flat surface which is almost never the case to begin with so technically you jitter around constantly
[12:05 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal avatars will collide with each other
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: those motors do also try to keep you in plave
[12:06 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I'll bring a giant egg next time we can play with it
[12:06 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Couple that with a confined space and you just get shaking, but yeah technically you can stuff avatars into it, just then you get constant physics load, things never go to sleep
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so each av will push the sphere in dif directions
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: until all blows up :P
[12:07 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal If everyone is "run to that hill"
[12:07 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal go same direction
[12:07 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal then what
[12:07 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well try it :)
[12:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester You can move someone else standing in a sphere with you, just not very quickly heh
[12:08 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal It was working reasonably well, for one avatar, except that my feet were pushing out the bottom...
[12:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: same issue as pushing a standing avatar
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird so like a Fred Flintstone car?
[12:08 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal yes sort of
[12:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well worse..  i may have some code to allow that push..  don't remember .)
[12:09 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester See what Ubit is talking about is that technically there is no friction and to stay in place you have forces applied to keep you in place. Those forces also act on things you stand when they are physical, so you become an anchor to anyone trying to move the thing you two are standing on. This can result in some funny things
[12:09 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on llpush i do disable motor  for a bit so it works..
[12:09 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: kinda..
[12:10 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Unless you actively touch something at which point more force is needed to move
[12:10 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Floating avatars require less force
[12:10 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Moment it handles collision probably resets that until the next push so you stop dead more quickly if you are touching something
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That also means moment you leave the collision you go to space fairly quickly
[12:11 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:11 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal or get legs pushed through prim
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Best to dynamically compute the force and clamp the output
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: at least you do not have the explosions we used to have on prims overlap ( with ubode )
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: see the prims?
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nice overlap..
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: going to set physical
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: done
[12:14 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester You can still get explosions if you mess with some of the physics values like gravity and density, but yeah it's much less explosive than before
[12:14 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal mo explosions phew
[12:14 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ubode...
[12:14 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: think you have the exp on bullet
[12:15 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal experience, not expertise....
[12:16 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal explosions
[12:16 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Tried for a while to get a waterslide to work, but the random collisions as the triangles interact with each other... keyframe is easier and more reliable
[12:17 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Don't think even with 0 friction and bounciness you can get that not to explode once in a while
[12:17 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Certainly unpredictable behavior is what you do want though, physics on rails ain't no fun
[12:20 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I have to get going. Have a great week all
[12:20 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal tc Gavin
[12:20 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I need to heasd out as well.
[12:20 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok see you all next week :)
[12:21 PM PT]  Web Rain: you too gavin :)
[12:21 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal thanks for the physics discussion :)
[12:21 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal ttys
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