Chat log from the meeting on 2023-12-19

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[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[12:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hi
[12:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, of course. Santa hat time. :)
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc
[12:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: As I suspected. I don't have one in this grid.
[12:03 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger lol
[12:03 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger amazed mine is seen
[12:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga
[12:03 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger hi cuga
[12:03 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Hi!
[12:04 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Ubit.
[12:04 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Small code change yesterday, teaching some old code new tricks, that was about it for commits
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Good. The cat has finally lied down in front of my monitor. I can see the screen again. :)
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah added some code to uuidgather for pbr
[12:05 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham That's no fun - at least you had an excuse
[12:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Orbert, true
[12:05 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hello *smiles*
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is a nasty thing needed for HG ( and cache expires) .. it scans thigns for possible assets, so they are transfered ( of kept )
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oh and OARs also
[12:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester pbr is going to be such a fustercluck with grids on different versions and HG, viewers not all being compatible etc. Really looking forward to that, will be so much fun /s
[12:07 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger already having complaints
[12:08 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't done any building in a while. I haven't looked for any new settings in the Build dialog to find the new options.
[12:08 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham PBR was a really crappy beer when I was in high school - looks like Linden Labs was drinking it :)
[12:08 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger lol
[12:08 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel things made for pbr will look grey.. unless extra efford is made so tghey look on on other viewers
[12:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: like i did for this helmet next to me
[12:09 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm on FS 6.6.17 now so the helmet no longer looks like a gray shape.
[12:10 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger 6.6.3 here it looks fine
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah i added a texture also on old non pbr settings
[12:10 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I still have no voice with this viewer. I need to report that to the viewer team.
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: something fs 7.x now makes hard, since those old ones are not avaiable on edit once pbr is set
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: something fs team may change...
[12:11 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: I don't have voice here either, Andrew, due to it being off, It hink
[12:11 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: I think
[12:11 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah think i did not activate it here
[12:11 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: so best to test it on other grids
[12:11 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger hey Joe
[12:11 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: I checked into the voice issue during the conference. we hit our limit for vivox
[12:12 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Hmm working for me, 6.6.17 Mac
[12:12 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: oh, ok. I didn't see it as disabled in the top bar of the viewer. I'll pop over to the OSCC grid later and try there.
[12:12 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Who's working on a VIVOX alternative.
[12:12 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: at the region you mentioned
[12:12 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger melanie?
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on last oscc melanie told she has some code for mumble servers, from a older project.. no viewer side..
[12:13 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Clifford, support for a Vivox alternative is a big job. There are a couple of teams working on it, afaik. No idea when either will have something available for general use.
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the team vor echovoice told they are working on it
[12:14 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: EchoVoice has been in development for at least two years, IIRC.
[12:14 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Good to know people are working on that.
[12:14 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but the intern Thales had working on it, left so the need another one
[12:14 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham lol
[12:14 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I suspect we might find ourselves in this spot next year not having much more to say about this. It being a client and server issue means it's a lot harder to solve than just supporting new viewer caps
[12:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: They must have unlocked the chains around the interns legs momentarily and they bolted. ;)
[12:15 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and once done it will have some free features.. and payed/closed ones
[12:15 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Vincent, who is still trying to get blood out of this turnip?
[12:16 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I bet things will speed up considerably for an alternative voice option if/when Vivox pulls the plug
[12:16 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Wait this is a turnip, oops :)
[12:16 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That is part of the problem. It isn't just one side or the other but both. It means viewers will need to swap out their voice support module for a new one. If they don't use the same programming interface the viewers will need additional changes to be made.
[12:17 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: as you may remember we and a working module and viewer side slvoice.exe a few years ago
[12:17 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: Thales did bye that and is part of echovoice
[12:17 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: did bye??
[12:17 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:17 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: dud buy :)
[12:18 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo smiles
[12:18 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and did...
[12:18 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I thought that is what you meant
[12:18 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester A new solution would need a viewer plugin they can just drop in, because last thing viewer devs will want to do is do a ton of integration work, so it has to be simple for them to support it. On the server end of things you have latency to consider, which is critical for voice comms to even work, so it running in OpenSim itself is unlikely. That means writing a region plugin and integrating that to a voice server of some kind.
[12:18 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well it is not that related to viewer..
[12:19 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: jsut took some reverse eng of the protocol viewers want...
[12:19 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Its a pretty standard protocol
[12:19 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: like i said we had a working one in 2007 ??
[12:19 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not really Cuga.Rajal
[12:20 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: is a vivox and ll thing
[12:20 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Reverse engineer is an option, but I am not sure that is the most sensible thing given what vivox currently is for us. I mean the quality is like talking through tin cans
[12:20 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal oh youre rightm I was thinking about audio stream
[12:20 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but tehre is a public spec somewhere
[12:20 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester So we'd not only have to figure out the protocol, but also how to upgrade that to higher bitrate or something to not get awful quality
[12:20 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal spacial i/o is also a hard part
[12:21 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well don't think vivox audio is now "standard"
[12:21 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the started just using normal SIP
[12:21 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Then you still have to figure out a way to run the server end, cause running that as OpenSim module is the worst option for various reasons
[12:21 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but now have own codecs etc
[12:22 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: mumble ofc client is public domain..
[12:22 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and server..
[12:22 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i actually have the old mumble on my github
[12:22 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i think
[12:23 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov:
[12:23 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Mumble is one option, there are like two more that can technically do the spatial audio thing, but then that depends on codecs too, which all have to be checked for license
[12:23 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm seems only the opensim module..
[12:24 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well i had that working here 12 years ago :)
[12:24 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The other voice option is OpenSim is FreeSwitch but that was always a major PITA to get configured correctly. I don't suppose there is any mileage to be had there.
[12:24 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Teaching mice to do taxes is easier
[12:25 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: FreeSwitch is more  a normal SIP phone thing
[12:25 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Right. IIRC, it didn't do spatial audio.
[12:25 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: fear that only the low quality codecs work
[12:25 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well and did depend on vivox also
[12:25 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins at the mice comment
[12:25 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: since viewer side is same SLvoice.exe
[12:26 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so it works, bc vivox 4 is still a SIP phoen also...  ( well kinda.. )
[12:26 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I tried several times, with long gaps between attempts, and did get it working once.
[12:27 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well it may work with a freeswitch server...
[12:27 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i did test it a few years ago also :)
[12:28 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, if it is possible to run an FS server on the same servers running OS that might be a solution (in a pinch) if Vivox was to go away if no other options are read at that time.
[12:29 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: s/read/ready/
[12:29 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: if the server has low latency for audio   opensim :)
[12:29 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I think more emphasis needs to be placed on "might".
[12:29 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger willing to test it on amv
[12:30 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel there are payed voice servers outthere
[12:30 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: one even suports fsw and mumble with same cost  :)
[12:30 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham And for a bigger grid, another server/virtual server would make sense to separate the functions
[12:30 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( one or the other ofc)
[12:31 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger details ubit?
[12:31 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: think i shwn the prices here a few weeks ago..
[12:31 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well not going to do free PUB for them again LOL
[12:31 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger IM is good
[12:31 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger i promise not to broadcast it lol
[12:32 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( they show up if you google mumble )
[12:32 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger ok
[12:32 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That's a mystery to me still, have not looked into that with vivox, but I would guess that is not just one server somewhere, but likely a network of servers across the globe that picks based on some metric where it will locate the "channel" for the parcel and people on it...
[12:32 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Perhaps I am expecting too much professionalism from them though
[12:33 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger lmao
[12:33 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger errr voicing in uk with usa and australia
[12:33 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Experience with Teamspeak I know that even distances of 4000km are not that big a deal with the right codec. Definitely latency there, but you can still converse
[12:34 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: yes. It isn't like we are talking with someone on the moon.
[12:34 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger true
[12:34 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: 400 users $130 per month :)
[12:34 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Might well be as far as Vivox' prices
[12:35 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger i would go with that if it works
[12:35 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well not sure if old mumble code still works
[12:36 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov:
[12:36 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: was the original site..  made by vcomm
[12:36 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger not found
[12:36 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Check the internet archive.
[12:37 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That being a forum the archive probably has little of the content.
[12:37 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeap long gone
[12:38 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger different topic if I may?
[12:39 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger anyone catch the wolf territories presntation ast the conference?
[12:39 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov does not point to Lyr
[12:39 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I saw some of it
[12:39 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what you mean catch?
[12:40 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger is there any code out there for robust/object storage
[12:40 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger as in assets?
[12:40 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Cloud is not a solution to all worldly and technical issues
[12:41 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Just grab a machine with some SSDs in it and enough space and usually you have no issues
[12:41 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well the videos are only
[12:41 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger clearly not
[12:41 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you can watch the conference again
[12:41 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Still have to maintain the thing, delete spurious assets from notecards and such if they went wild
[12:42 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger bnut i dislike rebuilding the assets every few years
[12:42 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham That isn't the storage media, it is the architecture
[12:43 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I don't think I have ever rebuild it, not sure what you even mean by that. With deduplication in FSAssets you usually have little to worry about
[12:43 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i meant the oscc videos are or will be on yt
[12:43 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It remains quite fast if you maintain it and care for it
[12:43 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov:
[12:43 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger maybe i need to look at dedup
[12:44 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Yes that is the list of videos from the conference sessions
[12:44 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger and wiping dead assets
[12:44 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Asset deduplication is built into FSAssets as standard already
[12:44 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: cdn assets for opensim regions is not that cool
[12:44 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger i thought so
[12:44 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Removing dead assets is not easy, but not impossible either, just be careful
[12:44 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The OSCC videos are available via YT. I couldn't spend much time in-world this year so I was watching the panels via YT. I still have a few I want to watch.
[12:44 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger yes lol
[12:45 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: unless you do not care about dynamic textures
[12:45 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger you mentioned the notecard issue
[12:45 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Knowing if an asset is dead isn't easy as it might be referenced as a URL in a script or notecard.
[12:45 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nad possible baked textures.. hmm not sure on those
[12:45 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger true andrew
[12:45 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Yeah for a long time that was a problem, but was fixed a while ago to reduce the asset spam of making new notecards and scripts
[12:46 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger when was that fixed?
[12:46 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger please?
[12:46 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Some people write scripts to dump data into notecards constantly, which creates useless assets you can usually delete if you know the notecard names
[12:46 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: More videos will come online as they are edited
[12:46 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal maybe a year ago??
[12:46 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger ok we must be using it then
[12:47 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I used to clean out assets too and yes it is a lot better now
[12:48 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I found 37 million notecards from some sf animal thingy in there once, just nuked them all
[12:48 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Deduping assets helps. I've seen between a 30% to 50% savings.
[12:48 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger i had that issue
[12:48 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger i ran out of inodes
[12:48 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ouch
[12:49 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Tons of tiny garbage files
[12:49 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That system would be much better off using a database.
[12:49 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger i agree
[12:49 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what system?
[12:50 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The sf animal thingy
[12:50 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger the storing of data in a notecard
[12:50 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Just prim description usually has enough space for keeping parameters
[12:50 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger as in changing data
[12:50 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok don't ask for linksetData again :p
[12:50 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:51 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Notecards are assets just like any other, correct? That means they are in the assets database, yes?
[12:51 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: yes
[12:51 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yes they are
[12:51 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Once they have actual data, the fix that was made tries to prevent just empty notecards being pushed to assets
[12:52 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham The animal thingy was hitting a hole in the implementation
[12:52 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham that allowed empty cards to be saved
[12:52 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, putting the animal parameters in the description would work if you don't run in to an issue with the number of parameters and the total number of characters needed. The parameters could be encoded to save space in some cases.
[12:54 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger even a php file on the server would suffice
[12:54 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger and save using assets
[12:54 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: We are almost at the hour mark. Just a quick reminder. We won't have an official meeting next week as that is the 26th which is Boxing Day in North America. That day is another of the major shopping days for the season.
[12:54 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham and would be a major security hole
[12:54 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger i use that for grid wind
[12:54 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester With most things having multiple prims you have a lot of space to work with
[12:54 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Clifford, yes. A php script on a webserver that can save data to files would also be another option.
[12:55 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester 127 chars I think, for each prim, that's nothing to scoff at
[12:55 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess 26th is the day where they put to trash all the new toys kids got in 25th
[12:55 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Or return them :)
[12:55 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:55 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I can store four GPS position reports in about 127 characters.
[12:55 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger or sell them
[12:56 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: A number of stores won't take returns on the 26th. They are too busy with people trying to buy items on sale.
[12:56 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham hehe
[12:57 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: who buys things at 26th??
[12:57 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: jezz
[12:57 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: lower prices?
[12:57 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham next year's presents
[12:57 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham at half the price
[12:57 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ohh ok
[12:57 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have on occasion but not for a long time. I just go to the local mall some years to people watch and see the size of the crowds and line ups.
[12:58 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Not worth it any more - takes too long to find parking
[12:58 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: My mall is close enough I just walked to it. :)
[12:58 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: jut walk around.. you will find the thing on the trashcans :p
[1:00 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Any other OpenSim items for today before we start wrapping things up?
[1:00 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger lol andrew
[1:00 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[1:00 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm all out of bows. :D
[1:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester For the record, I miss Gavin :(
[1:01 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Many thanks for your support!
[1:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Hopefully he will grace us with his presence again next year :)
[1:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I've also noticed Selby's absence the last few weeks.
[1:01 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: I miss Gavin, too. Saw that he had a post on his Dayturn viewer site
[1:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I hope we can see Bill again in the new yar.
[1:01 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Yes
[1:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeap :(
[1:02 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger merry christmas everyone
[1:03 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Miss Gavin too
[1:03 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger AMV appreciates you all
[1:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: If we are done for today I will wish those of you who celebrate Christmas a merry Christmas. For those who don't, I hope you have a wonderful holiday season. I may pop in on the 26th in case we get people showing up. Otherwise, a happy new year too. See you in the new year.
[1:03 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: Aviworlds too
[1:04 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger ty Andrew
[1:04 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Aviworlds party this afternoon?
[1:04 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Is there?
[1:04 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again in the new year if I don't see any of you again before the second of January in the new year.
[1:04 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal AvaCon I meant...
[1:04 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: OH yes
[1:04 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: no idea.
[1:04 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Peace, Andrew, Everyone
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