Chat log from the meeting on 2023-11-21

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[11:59 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what lsl changes ?
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:01 PM PT]  Tess JL: The one I mentioned is implementing game pad support. That should revolutionize vehicle scripting and vehicle control
[12:02 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger hi kayaker
[12:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Kayaker
[12:02 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger hi Andrew
[12:02 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester As usual when things land they take a while to mature, so implementing immediately and then having to change it is annoying, so probably will get implemented at some point later. I did start on the IsFriend thing and the rez parameter one, but it is quite a bit of code to write and work out
[12:02 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Was I standing here when everyone arived? The system told me I was still logged in from last week.
[12:03 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger lol
[12:03 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger you werent!
[12:03 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: nope
[12:03 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger i came here yesterday testing hg on nessie
[12:03 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Great to see everyone
[12:03 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: wonderful
[12:04 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I haven't looked too deeply into the game controller thing yet. Does that already work with current viewers?
[12:04 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird no
[12:05 PM PT]  Tess JL: Yes and no, I think LL has released the source code but not implemnted it in a candidate veiwer even yet
[12:05 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Then yeah that'll have to wait until they do else how would one test if it works
[12:05 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Is it supposed to work with that old Xbox USB game controller I have collecting dust around here somewhere?
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird the code is still work in progress
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: har to talk abotu something that has no viewer for opensim support...
[12:05 PM PT]  Tess JL: A friend of mine who is a great vehicle builder and scritper spending all his time on the beta playing around with it these days, so it does work
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and about LSL, there was no new LSL code added to core...  soem new functions added or proposed for SL are of questionable usability, so still not considered
[12:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Yeah what that friend function is for I can only assume is some security orbs or something where you specifically want to know if the person is your friend... like as if you can't tell lol
[12:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The requirement on that function has some heavy calls which are kinda overkill
[12:09 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well regions do need to know about friends for prim edit rights.. so something on them for that
[12:09 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins at Kayaker
[12:09 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The rez param thing... eh should not be too complicated par the actual param part which I don't yet fully grasp what it is meant to set
[12:09 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: I have one in front of me
[12:09 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel don't think that is that relevant currently
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: was it made into oficial sl lsl =
[12:10 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo nods
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: h
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: has...
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ?
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:10 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: not sure
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Things still being changed on it so before that calms down no point in adding, but will be considered at some point once SL has fallen on its face so we don't have to
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester In other news we had a cosmetics commit this week and some rumbling on mantis
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel it was supposed to be the last week one..
[12:12 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird They usually have a feature freeze from this week till over new years
[12:12 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird at least for what is released to the users
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: for some reason only got into bitbucket repo, not github or main git
[12:12 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird for SL you mean?
[12:13 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird SL repos*
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i meant last week code changes on opensim..
[12:13 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird oh, ok
[12:13 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I still fetch it from bitbucket
[12:14 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Ubit's git musta contracted OpenSim voodoo :D
[12:14 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: For prim edit rights there is already a mechanism for handling that unrelated to friends. Of course, you normally will only give a friend rights.
[12:14 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the "cosmetics commit" was not there except on bitbucket
[12:14 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess the dev forgot to push :p
[12:14 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: coff coff coff ;)
[12:15 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah SL usualy stops new releases during xmas period
[12:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:16 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird looks like LL has started hiding the latest SLVoice.exe builds behind an api.github url, so they may start to reserve ot for registered TPV devs as they do with some of the other libs
[12:16 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Mantis summary is mostly me finding something off with the logical operators not being evaluated to spec and after the ticket about migrations breaking I been working on a checking routine for the tables to make sure they are of proper schema else halt startup
[12:17 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: did read somewhere that ll is compiling the dep libs.. only for 64bit
[12:17 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not only slvoice
[12:17 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Perhaps they are moving Vivox versions after all, which could mean actual shutdown of v4, in the worst case scenario
[12:17 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I was not talking about that
[12:18 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird there is no point in building 32-bit viewers anyway these days
[12:18 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah all conspired to kill 32bit
[12:18 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: .. on intel...
[12:19 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger if they are doing that, does that focus us a little more on voice development?
[12:19 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird it could be, but it can also be they want better control over TPV viewer builds
[12:19 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird moving all the lib and viewer builds to github is a major pita
[12:19 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not sure what control they will have on the rust one :)
[12:19 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird that they do I mean
[12:19 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on the unity one.., etc
[12:20 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: or..
[12:20 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird might have to start building all the libs myself like FS do
[12:20 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on the other hand others even asked ll to sign their code... a very strange concept..
[12:21 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird ... actually they don't do all, but many
[12:21 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: think fs does does ll ones also
[12:21 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: does use...
[12:21 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird they use ll libs, but build some themselves too
[12:21 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Some of the media related ones I know they roll their own on
[12:22 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well at least hacd , you need to glue yourself
[12:22 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and openjpeg
[12:22 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: since sl uses payed libs
[12:23 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird just updated openjpeg from 1.5.2 I built myself to teh ll 2.5.0 version
[12:23 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[12:23 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird so that is out on the test viewer and the Mac viewer since Saturday
[12:24 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:25 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: did you looked to the pbr things?
[12:26 PM PT]  Bill's Chair: This is Bill's Chair
[12:26 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger hi jamie
[12:26 PM PT]  Bill's Chair: This is Bill's Chair
[12:26 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah Bill's chair i still reserved for him :)
[12:27 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: is...
[12:27 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Speaking of PBR things, I'm trying to find the old bumpyness and shinyness textures in the databases. I can read the Texture blob but cannot find bump and shiny. Anybody know where I should look?
[12:28 PM PT]  Jamie.Jordan hey sorry i'm late, wasn't paying attention to thw chair my bad
[12:28 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they are on a material asset
[12:28 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird who looked at teh pbr tthings?
[12:28 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I've written a PHP script that finds all unreadable textures in all prims in a region and tells you where they are and which face. I'd like to add bump and shiny.
[12:29 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i was asking if you did look to it for dayturn :)
[12:29 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I ahve looked at it for months, yes
[12:29 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I'm tired of getting 100 bad texture errors from region startup and map generation.
[12:29 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the texture blod has uuids for such "materials"
[12:29 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird but it also seem their development has stalled
[12:29 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I've created objects with known UUIDs for bump and shiny, and I don't see them in the Texture blob.
[12:30 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester They are not necessarily missing textures, they could be dynamic textures too or some residual bakes stuff
[12:30 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger hi cuga
[12:30 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: kayaker  i just told that those are stored on a material asset
[12:30 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I test for missing and for errors parsing the JP2 data.
[12:30 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Hi all! Sorry late
[12:30 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: only that asset uuid is present on the blob
[12:31 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: So there is a UUID in Texture that points to another asset in the database?
[12:31 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yes
[12:31 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: OK, I'll look for that!
[12:31 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester If you have one of those uuids I'll see if I can get you an image
[12:32 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: ?if I get errors decoding JP2 files, you think you can recover them Vincent?
[12:33 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester If they exist as assets they should be available to convert, things getting corrupted on asset end would mean some bad data entry somewhere
[12:33 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Given all the textures are still there on most regions I visit that can't be happening that often
[12:34 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I see texture errors whenever I login too, no idea what they are from they show even if I reset my appearance
[12:34 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Probably some bakes or something non critical else I think it would have come up on mantis a lot more
[12:35 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I'm finding old Arcadia Asylum builds brought over from SL that have corrupted textures on faces that aren't visible. Then people copied those all over the Metaverse and I see dozens of errors on map generation.
[12:35 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well that happens with stolen things..
[12:36 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: That also.
[12:36 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hi Jamie
[12:37 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Trying to clean that up is a bit of losing battle, one random import by someone and it all comes back. Probably be easier just to replace them with blank ones if the data is bad
[12:37 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Which it should already do tho
[12:37 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Are the assets with issues only JP2?
[12:38 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Nah mesh can be bad also, even cause hard crashes with regions and viewers
[12:38 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Not much input validation going on
[12:38 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: all complain the little one added to meshes :p
[12:39 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: soem even did publish articles on how to remove that code..
[12:39 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: whatever..
[12:39 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Ignorance is a hell of drug
[12:39 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I had recent issues with very old hair mesh, which is why I changed my hair this year. Older viewers didn't do much import valiidation.
[12:39 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal So issues not limited to stolen atuff
[12:40 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Mesh I uploaded a couple days ago gives zero length errors too, cause I committed the cardinal sin to mess with physics, I take full responsibility for playing with fire heh
[12:41 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger lol
[12:41 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Usually if it ain't red you can ignore it, yellow warnings are ugly, but not often harmful
[12:41 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger ok - here goes - any progress on the voice issue?
[12:42 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back and caught up with chat.
[12:42 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester You'll probably be asking that for a couple months, something that complex takes time to even research properly
[12:43 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger so be it
[12:43 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: welcome back
[12:43 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I have some new news about Bullet
[12:43 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Do tell
[12:44 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal So I nudged MisterBlue last week, because he aand I were promising some Bullet uypdates at the last OSCC
[12:44 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal And we have been having some discussions
[12:44 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal He fees (and I agree) that we should make an update before OSCC
[12:45 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird what will de update do?
[12:45 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal There has been a lot of dev work, the main hangip was bugs found
[12:45 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird the*
[12:45 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal But the bugs are not new ones, I'm just testing it more thoroughly than it has been in the pasdt
[12:45 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal he and I have been building and testing the latest version of Bullet 3 - v 3.25 for some time now
[12:46 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal and he also updated the wrapper with some improvements
[12:46 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester You mentioned something about detected faces and the falling asleep of physics last time, was that resolved?
[12:46 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal He was reluctant to release then with more testing, but really I've been testing them all year
[12:46 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal after some discussion, he is comfortable doing a release build sometime before this OSCC
[12:47 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal So, we plan to build a new complete set of Bullet unmanaged libs for all the platforms
[12:47 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal they will all have feature parity
[12:47 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Will use the latest from Bullet3 trunk, which is 3.25
[12:47 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal and the latest updates in his Bullet wrapper
[12:47 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal which I think he numbered 1.1
[12:48 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I already have the macOS lib ready and tested
[12:48 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal he is working on all the others
[12:48 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal He made a script that will automate the build for all the platforms, and even created a GitHub actions to build them all
[12:49 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I think he is only struggline with the Windows one
[12:49 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I did ask him what date I could tell this group about when they would be ready
[12:49 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal \he said, sometime before OSCC, ike early December-ish
[12:50 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Bullet 3 did get some updates in recent months although they did not bump the version number
[12:50 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal presumably bug fixes
[12:50 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird brb
[12:50 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I have a macOS lib ready if anyone wants to test it
[12:50 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal the otherrs are coming soon
[12:50 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I think thats all on Bullet, unless anyone has questions
[12:51 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Did that fix the bugs you had with it?
[12:51 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal No
[12:51 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal But those bugs are not new ones
[12:51 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Ah so there'll be potentially another version to address those later?
[12:51 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Just only discovered and documented recently
[12:51 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Cirrest
[12:51 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Correst*
[12:51 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Correct
[12:52 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal He looked at the bugs and they are difficult ones that will require a deep dive
[12:52 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Godspeed to him then, sounds fun heh
[12:53 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger will this update beefit end-users?
[12:53 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger benefit
[12:53 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Yes, it should have a number of bug fixes in the core Bullet, and the wrapper is a bit more effecient
[12:53 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal The wrapper also shows the actual Bullet version now, previously did not
[12:54 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal The Bullet currently released is v2.86, which is like 12 years old at least
[12:54 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I mean, the version being used in Opensim
[12:54 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal So an update has been a bit overdue I think
[12:55 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: 3.25 is like 8yrs old?
[12:55 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Not that old
[12:55 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal For some reason they stopped bumping the rev number some time ago, but there has been active work and a number of bug fixes even in the last 2 yearsd
[12:55 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok pybullet 3.25 is last year
[12:56 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal It's even received updates less than 6 mos ago
[12:56 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal So we were thinking of documenting the got branch ID or pull date, to document the version
[12:57 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal git*
[12:57 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal To be honest I can't see any obvious visual difference between old and new on use cases
[12:58 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal But I have not collected any detailed metrics, CPU time, etc
[12:58 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: seems pretty much dead, with exception of a few prs
[12:58 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Speaking of, I did recently hear that there is a pretty modern physics engine that has some C# bindings, JoltPhysics, which powers some triple A games. Possible something we could learn some tricks from. :)
[12:59 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Yeah, 3.25 might be the last version update unless there is more movement over there
[12:59 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: there are several c# enginers now
[12:59 PM PT]  Tess JL: Time for me to go. Have a lovely week everybody!
[12:59 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ppl love to use wrong tools :p
[12:59 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal The bugs that still exist are in the connector, not the Bullet lib
[1:00 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal So potentially could be fixed without updating the unmanaged lib
[1:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: one is beuphysics
[1:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: one is bepuphysics
[1:01 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Ubit I hope you and MisterBlue can connect on that
[1:01 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal The C## stuff is a little beyond my capabilities
[1:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Well bindings and native are different things, C# for physics is not a good fit yeah, c   strapped with C# works better
[1:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well i have no news on those changes to bullet
[1:01 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Hopefully I dicumented the bugs well enough in Mantis
[1:02 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Seems I'm the on;y one who is testing physics engines that thoroughly
[1:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: Alicia did use that bepu asn seems worked ok
[1:03 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Some issues might be due to XEngine - YEngine changes
[1:03 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal MrBlue never went back to look at that
[1:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc call c# to what that really uses is abuse
[1:03 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal *shrugs*
[1:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: uses all the *unsafe* nonsense dotnet5  added
[1:04 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester C flexibility producing a cursed mess heh
[1:04 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Don't remind me, cringe*
[1:05 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal So thats the scoop on Bullet.. expect an update around early Dec, but not really anything major
[1:05 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal other than the big jumo in version #
[1:06 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger yEngine got tighter in nessie too
[1:06 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal If there's somebody who is really passionate about Bullet, and has the programming chops
[1:06 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I recently watched a video about someone who provides comments on someones code and optimizes it. One thing I learned from it is that just because a language has some (new) feature doesn't mean you should use it. Sometimes sticking to older (and often simpler?) ways of doing things works better.
[1:06 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal We could use the heslp
[1:06 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I agree Andrew
[1:07 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal But I wouldn;t say that is a hard rule, depends on the case and all the considerations
[1:07 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: a lot of new c# things are pure sugar
[1:07 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, right. The best option is try it both ways and see which works best.
[1:07 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: compiler tricks only
[1:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Even if you cut the amount of machine instructions down doesn't mean you save time
[1:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but a few are pure hacks around the main rules of c# like string invariance or array bounds checks etc
[1:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: those are nonsense incoerence
[1:08 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The video I watched was related to ray tracing code. It may have used lambdas (or some other C   feature) and the code took 7 minutes to run. Changing one bit to a simple for loop and it ran in 23 seconds without other changes.
[1:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The thing that broke the mysql connectors a while ago, pure silliness
[1:09 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but in use now on their codem and part of reason why dotnet seems faster now
[1:10 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Trimming things out does make it run faster heh that's just physics
[1:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oops rl calls
[1:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: cya ppl
[1:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester mono died so dotnet could be faster lol
[1:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit. See you next week.
[1:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Does anyone else have a question they wanted to ask but didn't get to ask yet?
[1:12 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, is registration open for this years OSCC?
[1:14 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I'm pretty sure it is open.
[1:14 PM PT]  Jamie.Jordan have a great week yall
[1:14 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr must be afk at the moment. We are just a couple, or so, weeks away from this years OSCC. Check the web page to register for the event and to check for the conference schedule.
[1:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Keep in mind that there are usually some events held in advance of the actual weekend of the conference.
[1:15 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger ty everyone
[1:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: With that, I'll wrap up todays gathering.
[1:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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