Chat log from the meeting on 2023-11-07

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[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[12:01 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Andrew
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird omg - sorry
[12:01 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger hi Andrew {loading)
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird old habit
[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:01 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo smiles in welcome
[12:01 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger hey Joe
[12:01 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal The beer is better in that seat
[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Joe
[12:01 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo laughs
[12:02 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger hi Vincent
[12:02 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird catualy the lighting is terrible in this seat
[12:02 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hello everyone!
[12:02 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I look green
[12:02 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins
[12:03 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger something you ate gavin?
[12:03 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Gotta watch that spinach...
[12:03 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger ruins shirts!
[12:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The clocks changed in North America this weekend. That should get us all back on the same time for the meeting.
[12:05 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger very quiet today?
[12:05 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger any thoughts progress on voice?
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I susually don't eat light, no :-)
[12:06 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird usually*
[12:06 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Well, and urgent but easy fix issue came up yesterday, with the macOS unmanaged libraries. I opened a Mantis and attached some updated libs
[12:07 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird The only thing I have done the last week is to get the Windows viewer to build with Visual Studio 2022
[12:07 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Quite an accomplishment, that
[12:07 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird plus some other build issues on macOS because Apple has been creative again
[12:07 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger dayturn?
[12:07 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes
[12:08 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal opensim is non-op on macOS until the new libs are swapped in to to dotnet6 branch
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird is it?
[12:08 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal yep
[12:08 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, The change log shows the libraries as having been pushed to the code repo.
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I have not had any issues
[12:09 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal great
[12:09 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal then macOS people will need to update
[12:09 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird if you start anything from terminal the signature isn't even checked
[12:09 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: I'm now a MacOS people.  God fed up with Windoze.
[12:09 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal no ttrue
[12:09 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger this affects just nessie or all builds?
[12:10 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal macOS specifically, dotnet6 branch
[12:10 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger ty
[12:11 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird what version of macOS?
[12:11 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal it was a code signing issue, may have been my fault
[12:11 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal The libs will run on any macOS 10.15-114.x
[12:11 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal but code signing issue will break on all of them
[12:12 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal oops I mean 10.5-latest
[12:12 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal 10.15-latest
[12:12 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird all right, you say you cannot sign it any more
[12:12 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I can sign it, and did
[12:12 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird but the old ones runs perfecty fine
[12:12 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal the problem has to do with the developer cerytificate needing to be renewed annually
[12:13 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal The certificate I used to sign the macOS libs was originally created November 2022, and I got an email from Apple that they were going to expire and I needed to create new ones
[12:13 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird sure but the signature is never checked if it is just a lib running in some other process under BSD
[12:14 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal as part of creating new ones, I had to revoke the old cert, whiuch is the one used to sign the macOS unmanaged libs
[12:14 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird when did you revoke it?
[12:15 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal The day after I revoked the old cert, my server auto-retarts oensim evenry Monday morning, and it failed to start. Could not load any of the 3 unmanaged libs
[12:15 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal same result on x86_64 Mac and arm64 Mac
[12:15 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger hi kayaker
[12:15 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal So I re-signed the same binaries with the new cert, dropped them in, and it worked again
[12:15 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird starting a simmulator now. not a pip
[12:15 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird with the old libs
[12:15 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal hmm, no idea why your result is different
[12:16 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal glad to hear though
[12:16 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i did push the new libs for mac, a hour or so ago
[12:16 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I have an idea, lemme check
[12:16 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and those where last week "code changes"
[12:16 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal it did give me a scare, that others are having same problem, so I re-signed them and pushed the new ones to Mantis
[12:17 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal we need to understand this better. ideally should not have to re-sign unmanaged libs once a year
[12:17 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Gavin, perhaps we can look into this tigether away from meeting
[12:17 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird sure
[12:18 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal so if anyone usins macOS is having trouble starting up opensim /dotnet6 just need to update
[12:18 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: k
[12:18 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal thanks for pushing those into repo
[12:19 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well thx for providign them :)
[12:20 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal stupid Apple :/
[12:20 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal yvw :) glad it happened after I was back from travel
[12:22 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird if I do codesign -v -v on your old libs
[12:23 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird it sayus:
[12:23 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird libBulletSim.dylib: valid on disk
[12:23 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: those that where testing fs 7.0 alpha and did update, somethings no longer work due to ll change on protocol
[12:23 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird libBulletSim.dylib: satisfies its Designated Requirement
[12:23 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal try codesign -d --verbose=2 --extract-certificates [file]
[12:23 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: changes on inveotry procotol seems working on that and main beta
[12:24 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: just it shows now inventory thumnails and those do not work
[12:24 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird [REDACTED]
[12:24 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: since they only use code dependent on AISv3
[12:24 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird did I dox you now?
[12:25 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel thats a thing abotu soft sign.. no anonimate
[12:26 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well unless apple allows it?
[12:26 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird they don't
[12:26 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester LL rushing things out more than usual working on different things at the same time causing everything to break huh
[12:26 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird Just edit the above out from the minutes, pls
[12:27 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird yeah, their development process is a complete mess as seen from outside
[12:27 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: Ohh vicent canm you edit out that name, later, before uploading the log?
[12:27 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Will do
[12:27 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal gavin is that from ther old libs? I get a different result, weird
[12:27 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: thanks
[12:27 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes it is
[12:28 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal well it's nice to see, but not clear why we are gettign diff results. Will look into this later
[12:28 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird yup
[12:30 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes, LL is pushing out more stuff. But there was a 3-year period during which they did very little. This is progress
[12:30 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird actually they did a heck of a lot in the background Joe
[12:30 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[12:30 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well would be progress if it where good things..  but details ;)
[12:30 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird as they seem to do agaon
[12:31 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right, they had to clean up a lot to get onto AWS. Old versions of libraries...
[12:31 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm they are at aws for years now
[12:31 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I'd wish they'd think a bit more about how things get implemented so the new functions in LSL would make a bit more sense
[12:32 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: thing is that they had moved to sansar..
[12:32 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I have said it before, I am pretty sure they are developing an xbox version of the viewer
[12:32 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and did very little on sl
[12:33 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird they may also drop Mac support, because they have updated the build instructions for the Windows version, but the Mac version instructions are significantly outdated
[12:33 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Yeah those game control changes are annoying too, as if xbox was the only controller out there, would have liked some more modularity on that
[12:34 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal and yet they are working on an iPad viewer
[12:34 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: kewl
[12:34 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: those on top of the mobile viewer?
[12:34 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Game controller support will use the Human Interface Device standard. That supports most things that plug into a USB port.
[12:34 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird more serious is their chief tech (cannot remember his name) said i one of their podcasts / videos that "Mac users will lag behind Windows users in functionality and performance, but we will try to have an option also for these users"
[12:34 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: or those are realy the mobile project?
[12:34 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal no idea, its a hush-hush Linden project
[12:34 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal bhut they do post their progress from time to time
[12:35 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: It's apparently written in C# but that's all I know.
[12:35 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal LL posted an update about it in October
[12:35 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird The mobile project is running on Vulkan
[12:35 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Mobile viewer gonna work real well with lludp and spotty connections unless they want to move all into tcp now, yay protocol overhead isn't something we already have enough of
[12:35 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: c# on xbox?  ll is really good on using the wrong tools for a job ;)
[12:36 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: I'm wondering if the mobile viewer has some extra server support.
[12:36 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I suspect they are not doing any UDP
[12:36 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal but thats just a guess
[12:36 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Don't know.
[12:36 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird there is a crippled version of Vulcan called MoltenVK, that translates it to Metal, but it is a subset only
[12:36 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird and Apple has made major updates to Metal lately
[12:37 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: old idea for mobile was kinda server side video streaming of a client
[12:37 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: soemthing done for several games... that even can be played on tvs
[12:37 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: There is a plan to migrate some more things to the event poller channel. But after the Materials debacle, that isn't looking as good. Too much LLSD overhead.
[12:37 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bahh materials problem was not llsd overhaed
[12:38 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: was/is LSL nonsense
[12:38 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I will not be surprised they are writing a DirectX 12 renderer, and dropping Mac support
[12:38 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: plus JSON embeded on llsdxml
[12:38 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Sure it was. Someone made a disco floor where every tile changed material on every beat. 50 MB/minute of LLSD over the event poller channel.
[12:39 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: gltf  sees a fun thign to help sells...  but a very bad format to use on fast streaming
[12:39 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Agreed.
[12:39 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: seems..
[12:39 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: So t hey changed to some UDP mesages for material overrides.
[12:39 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wo yea at least they changed that...
[12:40 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sadly adding extra work on servers.. bc tehy still upload data in gltf and send to viewers in compact LLSD notation
[12:40 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess theirs servers have to do that transcode on the fly per prim face... so clever...
[12:40 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester This is going to strain viewer development in regards to compatibility and make every code merge even more annoying
[12:40 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird Does anyone know what the Sansar renderer was written in (it did not have Mac support)
[12:41 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: No idea how Sansar did things.
[12:41 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: I use WGPU, which is supposed to supprot Mac, but I havent' tested it.
[12:41 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: looking to new ll code.. seems sansar did things badly :P
[12:41 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger silly question time ~~ are we this dependant on LL?
[12:41 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.
[12:41 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I suppose one could find out if there is an old client installer somewhere
[12:41 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: If a Mac dev would like to try, talk to me.
[12:41 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes we are
[12:42 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird OpenSim viewers are 95% LL code
[12:42 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger is that healthy?
[12:42 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel the dependence rope may be abotu to break( again )
[12:42 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham It has never been "healthy"
[12:42 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right.
[12:42 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger listens
[12:42 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some ll changes are jsut too bad to follow
[12:42 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: I am behind on keeping Sharpview up with LL. Sharpview is 0% LL code. 100% Rust.
[12:43 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham We are dependent on the viewer writers, and they are the ones that don't want to separate us
[12:43 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger understood
[12:43 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger includes dayturm?
[12:43 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham I am hoping Joe here will give us a code base that allows the separation
[12:43 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well when fs did sperated us, they stopped doing any code for us..
[12:43 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird the problem is that nobody are capable of rewriting the renderer
[12:43 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes also dayturn
[12:44 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: dayturn already does not ahve some ll blablacode :)
[12:44 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Whenevery someone wants the code, I point them at an open source test of the rendering stack that I have, and ask them to compile and build it. So far, nobody has.
[12:44 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird on macOS Apple has said they will park OpenGL and the only thing running on macOS is Metal
[12:44 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird once OpenGL is toast
[12:45 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: seem thing thing vulkan will run on mac??
[12:45 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ...think...
[12:45 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird it wont
[12:45 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird it is a subset
[12:45 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: If you want to try, build this:
[12:45 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird and Apple has done major changes in Metal 3 to make support for the VR headset
[12:45 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird that Vulkan cannot do
[12:46 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It's multiple things combined that make it so bad. The practice of merging mainline code then reverting and changing things back to add compatibility or fix LL code. Then you have a large dependency tree and quite complex setup to build the viewer making development slow as you wait for it to build. So it's a dev and devops issue and you still have to watch out for LL curve balls
[12:46 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: It's a dummy game - same stack as Sharpview.
[12:46 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: "100% safe Rust." hmm :)
[12:46 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird correct Vincent
[12:46 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Works on windows and Linux. Try building it on MacOS and let me know how that works.
[12:46 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird it is a real pain
[12:46 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i don't think my car rust is 100% safe ..
[12:47 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird bookmarked your repo
[12:47 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Try that out, please. If there are problems I will help. But I don't have any Mac gear.
[12:48 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess rust like c# will not need sign on mac?
[12:48 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel assuming c# will not need it..
[12:48 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: It produces hard executables, so it will probably need signing.
[12:49 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah was thinking that on AOT compile
[12:49 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird even if it is running Rust, in will have to be compiled in Xcode for the final app to run as a desktop app, so ideally it must be singed and notraized
[12:49 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel in fact apple only allows AOT
[12:50 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Changing the development pipeline and cleaning up the dependency mess would not just benefit us, but make it generally easier to develop a viewer using LL code. That's a big undertaking though and it doesn't completely solve the compatibility problem either
[12:50 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird dotnet c# like opensium must not be singed
[12:50 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird signed
[12:50 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, What other dependencies are there to build the ui-mock apart from needing the rust dev tools?
[12:50 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird xcode isn't involved at all in dotnet builds
[12:50 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: It's all handled by Rust's Cargo system.
[12:50 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: opensim could be pre compiled also
[12:50 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in AOT
[12:51 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ms starts to "sell" that idea..
[12:51 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Just install Rust, try "cargo build", and see what happens.
[12:51 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: As a check the rust-all package pulls in 12 other packages.
[12:51 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: since JIT is... well damm slow :)
[12:51 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird sure Ubit, but it does not run as a desktop app
[12:51 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird it is invoked from the BSD subsystem, and does not need to be signed to run
[12:51 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well i stest AOT long ago still on mono
[12:51 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Andrew, probably the best way to install it is to use the rust script on their web site
[12:52 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not the new dotnet6 forms
[12:52 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm or dotnet8
[12:52 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I think we ultimately concluded compiling in release vs debug mode made a bigger difference than aot for most things
[12:52 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I suppose I could try and compile opensim in VS for macOS
[12:52 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird but I cannot see it makes a difference
[12:53 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well performance change btw AOT and JIT is mostly on methods loading
[12:53 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird if it was an iOS app with na UI, sure, then i had to be signed, and the final build is done by Xcode
[12:53 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird but not for something invoked by the BSD subsystem
[12:53 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: once a method is compiled into native, things stay similar.. in fact jit maybe a bit better
[12:55 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger ok 5 mins left - Is there any work/progress on voice in the last 2 weeks?
[12:55 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird nothing but I have freed up a machine to try the mac version on Mumble
[12:55 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Rome wasn't built in a day :)
[12:55 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird and downloaded the executable
[12:55 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger lol vincent
[12:56 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester One of the things that I can't help but notice is that the increase in performance in dotnet does come along with higher cpu usage, which makes me wonder if some code is now so efficient it effectively spams now
[12:57 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Something running twice as fast without any throttle could cause bottlenecks elsewhere
[12:57 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal CPU is always underutilized so thats a good thing
[12:57 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger not seen any dramatic increases
[12:58 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger what i have seen is the opensim library has dissapeared
[12:58 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger but that may be a config issue
[12:58 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger on my part
[12:59 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what opensim lib?
[12:59 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, Any idea how much of an increase there was in CPU usage?
[12:59 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger in the viewer inventory
[12:59 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well we do have it..
[1:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: even on fs beta with recent ll changes to inventory ( guess dayturn does not have them still )
[1:00 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger must be my robust split, missing something
[1:00 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Probably somewhere in the range of 15-30% depending on case. I did notice that it used to be somewhat linear up until a point and now it tends to go up in usage much more quickly and then slows down a bit
[1:00 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Does the RAM usages match that?
[1:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It's scary to see usage of 250% cpu with a lot of users
[1:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, that's not going to be good for someone running a lot regions on a single box.
[1:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Memory usage is way down compared to say three years ago
[1:01 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Probably part of the tradeoff
[1:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i did made several changes to how we did use memory
[1:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and dotnet gc is a bit better
[1:02 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins and nods
[1:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but for example all lludp packet buffers are now reused
[1:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is a lot less stress on gc
[1:03 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I need to explore some ways to profile what goes on and see what takes up the most cpu time, that may point to where something is running a bit too often
[1:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( well that started in 0.9.1 ?? )
[1:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: profile needs to do several http requests
[1:03 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger i have 2 identical regions running on nessie and yeti i see minor difference in cpu
[1:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but thing on overall cpu usage is now a lot less also
[1:04 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It's just a worry of mine, when you have "natural" throttles in the form of slow code and they suddenly go away you might get hiccups elsewhere when code was tuned to work at similar speeds
[1:04 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger one is 8% the other 9%
[1:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: lludp sending is now also done with fastfoward serialization without intermediate structures
[1:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and some some caps..
[1:05 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Next meeting, bye for now.
[1:05 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: could that be within the real of statistical error?
[1:05 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger bye joe
[1:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by.
[1:05 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: realm
[1:05 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger i think so
[1:06 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger both regions are empty
[1:06 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger of people
[1:06 PM PT]  Clifford.Hanger both have same content
[1:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well cpu load is not that a big metric...  things need to use cpu to work :P
[1:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It's difficult to measure that stuff accurately given the amount of variables you have in play. It is mostly just looking at usage during peak hours and comparing that to how things used to behave. Noticing mostly a difference in how usage grows more quickly and then levels off, over a more linear growth
[1:16 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bad network weather
[1:18 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: bye Vincent!
[1:18 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok fun networkj glitch
[1:18 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: sorry to dash so fast *laughs*  yes, pulled the plug, eh?
[1:18 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo teases
[1:19 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess someone on a major net node pulled out the wrong cable
[1:19 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester One way to end a meeting
[1:19 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: hehe
[1:19 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: see ya!
[1:19 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[1:20 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah rl also calls me :)
[1:20 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: cya aroung
[1:20 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The logging...
[1:21 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That was an unexpected end to the meeting.
[1:22 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: We all got logged out and the region went away for a bit but we are back.
[1:22 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester mobile viewer experience lol
[1:22 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: As the meeting was just about over I will officially mark it as ended and turn off the chat logger.
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