Chat log from the meeting on 2023-10-24

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[11:03 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:04 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: Again no code changes during last week.
[11:05 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Hi Andrew
[11:06 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Someone must be on vacation. ;)
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:06 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Haven't done much on the tests either, still trying to wrap my brain around how the test results are recorded
[11:07 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird The only thing I have done is placing a region on the grid running on a PI4
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nice.. and it worked?
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:07 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird ...with the very latest code
[11:07 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: nice
[11:07 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird it even runs vivox
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oh there are libs for arm?
[11:08 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Now you can try it again with a Pi5.
[11:08 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: How did you run slvoice.exe? Unde wine?
[11:08 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hello *grins*
[11:08 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I don't have access to a PI5, but I cannot see why it should not work
[11:09 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird virvosx is runnign opensim server side
[11:09 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I don't plan on getting a Pi5 anytime soon. I have enough other Pi boards.
[11:09 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I just configured it
[11:09 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I am not running a viewer on the PI4
[11:09 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird that would have required SLVoice.exe
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: duhh not running dayturn on it also?
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: (hihihii )
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and yeah opensim side is just some http things to the servers
[11:10 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird since the Raspian OS now is running Wayland and not X11, I doubt any viewer can be run without quite a bit of effort
[11:10 AM PT]  Web Rain: Hi there :)
[11:11 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Hi Web
[11:11 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Wayland has broken so many thing it's insane
[11:11 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I hear everything that is a game or anything is broken on the PI5 and latest Raspbian OS
[11:12 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird in the same gate... LL has started a project for using an Xbox controller with the viewer
[11:12 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that's not good.
[11:12 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Oh that's what that game control nonsense is for, was wondering what they were smoking
[11:12 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: um... another thing LL is doing instead of dealing with more important issues.
[11:13 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird As I have said before I believe they have a project to make the viewer run on Xbox
[11:14 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Course no real modablity in their implementation so any other controller will fall short
[11:15 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird the region running on the PI is accessible at
[11:16 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird apart from that I have not done much. all the going on in the ME keeps distracting me constantly :-(
[11:17 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Had a lot of stuff to do this year, well deserved break from things I'd say
[11:17 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Less we go code blind completely
[11:18 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ME?
[11:18 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird middle east
[11:18 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:18 AM PT]  Motoko.Karu hmm.. can't see building / scripting with a hand-controller :p
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: see ME things all my life...  waste of time
[11:19 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: My mother is not well and that is not leaving me much time for OS related projects between work and one personal project I'm trying to work on.
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they just love to be in misery..  whatever
[11:20 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes, Ubit, I had tuned it out completely, but this time it is different
[11:21 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That is one discussion we can leave alone.
[11:21 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yep
[11:21 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Hm actually I do have some minor thing I been looking at over the last couple days
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: u still fear more the other war ppl are forgetting now
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but well lets get back to opensim :)
[11:21 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: It might be a bit early to mention but the OSCC will be coming up in another month or three.
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: toy mean a month and a few?
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you.. :)
[11:22 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester We have these sql migration files to make changes to the tables as needed, but they are fairly static in nature, meaning they'll just run without a care in the world about what actually happens to the table in question
[11:23 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Are there any issues or projects in the works that we would like to see done in time for this years event? Should we be having another load test session to see how the current code holds up?
[11:23 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I poked around a bit and found some sql to first test if a field exists already before attempting to add it, make those migrations a bit less prone to issues perhaps
[11:23 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Though that got me thinking of perhaps that entire migration system might need a bit more robust design from the start
[11:23 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, it is an expression as I'm not sure of the actual date for this years event.
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the dbs "migration" process is not that good after a few changes
[11:24 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: OSCC Is Dec 9th antd 10th
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird isn't there an if exist sql statement?
[11:24 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester There is
[11:24 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, ty.
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird both at the table and fliedl elvel
[11:24 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That makes it in about a month and a half.
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird field level*
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: it creates main tables then applies changes on top of changes
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: good thing is that mostly happens on new empty tables, so.. no big drama.. most cases
[11:25 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, That's what it has usually done. Are the migration steps not up to date with the current state of the tables?
[11:25 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The better option would be for migrations to fetch the table schema, compare it to the layout it is meant to have and then only do the changes necessary to get there
[11:25 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Instead it just runs if it finds the version number to mismatch
[11:25 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester No checks if exist or anything else
[11:26 AM PT]  Web Rain: @Andrew : for the OSCC there is my crypto solution for the hypergrid ... but seems nobody care...
[11:28 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Web: I know some people who would be interested in crypto hypergrid solutions, you have a document about that? I'll pass it on.
[11:28 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: The deadline for submitting articles to OSCC has already passed. Oct 22nd.
[11:28 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Yes, but I keep it open
[11:28 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Web, Can you elaborate a bit on that for those who may have have heard you mention it before now?
[11:28 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: fortunately, I am the speaker wrangler
[11:28 AM PT]  Web Rain: at this moment the thing is in pre-release and in wait of an audit from the BTCPay team
[11:29 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: so if someone would like to submit for a session, let me know
[11:29 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo:
[11:29 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, You can be bribed to get another topic or two added to the roster? :)
[11:29 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: yes *grins*
[11:29 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: no bribes needed
[11:29 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird if the crypto solution force you to use a US broker, it is a non starter in Europe because they have to do tax reporting to IRS
[11:29 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: I'm setting the schedule by the 30th, so let me know and I'll coordinate it
[11:29 AM PT]  Web Rain:
[11:30 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Web, Is that going to require users have BitCoin accounts somewhere?
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( the migrations are up to date, ofc)
[11:30 AM PT]  Web Rain: this is my plugin for BTCPay server, BTCPay is a software and not a web service
[11:30 AM PT]  Web Rain: yes in your wallet ^^
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( but scaring adding a m0ore things to those with some very large dbs outthere )
[11:30 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird and IRS will do a 39% tax withholding unless you register as a US foreing entity and file a tax return
[11:31 AM PT]  Web Rain: all is 100% self-hosted
[11:31 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Sessions are 20 minutes on Dec 9-10 at the OpenSimulator Community Conference
[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird and the exchange from crypto to real currency happens where?
[11:32 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Altering a table is heavy when there is a lot of data, but can't be avoided for some things
[11:32 AM PT]  Web Rain: in an exchage... there is more than 660
[11:33 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird any exchange?
[11:33 AM PT]  Web Rain: buy what i recommand to be used in the hypergrid is paxful
[11:33 AM PT]  Web Rain:
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester What got me looking was moving from mono to dotnet the migrations failed, which was my fault, but it made me wonder why they didn't seem to "just work" heh
[11:34 AM PT]  Web Rain: this is the way to install BTCPay at home... the plugin is already inside in the plugins manager but you have to display it... the way is in my git
[11:34 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I may just add a thing at the end that checks the table schema against what it is meant to be "current" and give alerts when it differs, hat seems to be a good place to start
[11:34 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Have a final check before trying to run up a simulator
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i didn't notice migration issues on dothet
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: even on dotnet
[11:36 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Was my fault adding a field in one of the tables and putting the migration in the wrong place
[11:36 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Web.
[11:37 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I did not have any ... well actually i did, but I was converting from postgres to mysql so
[11:37 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Regarding migrations and table issues are there still issues with PostgreSQL support?
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well there is a possible on inventory.. looking a bit sacred to do it :)
[11:37 AM PT]  Web Rain: if you have questions about feel free to ask ^^
[11:37 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird fresh installs have worked fine
[11:37 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Andrew, it is pretty much unmaintained now
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The latest version of postgres with mono did not work
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester There is a mantis somewhere with some details on that
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: seen post listed with high recomendations on 2023 DB solutions
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird no, there needs to be serious work for postgres to be useful again
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I tried for a while to get it to work, but gave up as I was just dumping more and more dlls into it
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc our interface to it  may need some love :)
[11:39 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird not just the interface, but the entire simple table handler must be rewritten
[11:39 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird plus more too
[11:40 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Postgres support issues are currently more than just DB table related?
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and we may need to split mysql from mariadb, since maria is changing own ptotocol :(
[11:40 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes, the code is written for a time when postgres did not handle upsert and is therefor quite complicated in sections
[11:40 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Yes, I was about to say that it sounded like a similar issue.
[11:41 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Inevitably that also brings up the question of whether some data structures aren't better suited to a different style of database, but turning things into a multi-db setup is quite the work
[11:41 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Saving all inventory of every user to a giant table isn't exactly great design
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some would be better on a no-sql db
[11:41 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I still submit postgres is a better db for the workload of opensim
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: even jsut key-value one
[11:42 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we have all those nice columns and really never use them
[11:42 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we just read and write all at once
[11:42 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( with minor exceptions )
[11:42 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jamie.
[11:43 AM PT]  Jamie.Jordan Hi all sorry i'm late
[11:43 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Well, PG might be a better DB for OS but not when it is not supported or, worse, completely broken.
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so we do waste all the dbs connectors serielization of all those fields etc
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some not that good
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: regions storage is such a case
[11:44 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Postgres support is fixable. it is just another project...
[11:44 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we only save or read full SOGs..
[11:44 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks is referring to the OS side of things re: support, etc. Not about the state of PG development itself
[11:44 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Jamie, no worries.
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some forks did use things like cassandra etc
[11:45 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I often question the database structure related to groups. The current design results in some rather complex and ugly looking SQL queries.
[11:46 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Groups essentially needs complete rewrite not just DB things, but entire code is just slow as anything
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well fear groups is such a case where dql is needed
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and cross db queries..
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: groups are slow things no matter what :)
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: never scale well
[11:47 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Things like inventory and avatar data, that as giant tables makes less sense, but rewriting those things is a big task
[11:47 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I started on mongoDB support months ago
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird constant source og kvetching in SL meetings and forums
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird of*
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: mongo seems to have bad limitations on the free license
[11:47 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks smiles at Gavin
[11:47 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I do have one group with over 1000 members now, somehow that hasn't blown up yet, which is kinda surprising
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( like a few other cases )
[11:48 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, The kvetching is easier than coming up with the solution.
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: if you have large dbs, you need to pay
[11:48 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird it is Andrew :-)
[11:49 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It's the first thing that came to mind with document-based DB, there is probably others that might work better
[11:49 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Finding a connector to use wasn't easy either
[11:49 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham "groups" have been larded with so much so-called social media functionality that they are a semi-organic mess of code with no real rhyme or reason
[11:49 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Postgres does not have any problesm handling large databases - for free
[11:49 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird and it can also spread single tables on multiple file systems
[11:50 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes, Beq Janus has struggled with group issues. The main problem is catching up to group activity when someone logs in. That's extremely inefficient.
[11:50 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird plus the newest versions also can handle parallell queries quite well
[11:52 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Some of the groups module does select * which then returns massive amounts of data half of it not actually then getting used for anything. Plus we then cache some of that to make it faster which results in, for example, role permissions to seemingly not work despite the DB change being made
[11:52 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Just doesn't reflect the change due to the cached data
[11:53 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Table joins are actually quite fast if the tables are setup correctly. If they are not the data conversion can take multiple seconds per query
[11:53 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Good example is joining from the ossearch tables to opensim tables as they don't share the same charset
[11:53 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: On the database front, everybody seems to be moving to Postgres. It works, and the good stuff isn't becoming locked behind proprietary versions.
[11:54 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Postgres also have support for materialized views, so I think many of the group queries can be pre-computed and stored in matrialized views for much faster access
[11:55 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Agreed Joe
[11:56 AM PT]  Web Rain:  1
[11:57 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester With specialized things that only one flavor of DB has also come certain lock-in to that. Think the idea with the way the connectors are written in was to allow for a generic approach that wouldn't be left with unsupported or no longer maintained special things
[11:59 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird there was a guy who did quite a bit of work on rewriting the db interface so work around that issue ... Freakytech?
[11:59 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird not sure why he packed up and left
[12:00 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird arribasim?
[12:00 PM PT]  Jamie.Jordan Yeah i've met him but haven't seen him in at least a year
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I have a copy of arribasim repro dated March 1 2020
[12:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester What it comes down to is a data audit. Figuring out what data we need to save and what format might be best for that, while maintaining as much compatibility as possible yet still using modern enough solutions to get some speed out of them. That's mostly just busy work writing documentation
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird it might be on github still
[12:02 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The real fun begins trying to implement connectors and talking to DB or even multiple DB systems effectively
[12:02 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Though I do think moving some stuff away from sql might yield big benefits even if it means another dependency to deal with
[12:02 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird he was working on the connectors
[12:03 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird anyways
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: as i said some things are just (key-value) things
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: or could eb made so
[12:04 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: There's a lot to be said for just staying with a mainstream SQL database. They pretty much work. NoSQL stuff changes a lot more.
[12:04 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird note that mysql is least standards compliant of the main db systems
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sadly many grid admins do like to read dbs and see all those fields on assets etc
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: or inventory...
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so most there jsut for those rare human use
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: db ssytems have standards?
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ;)
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird there is a sql standard, yeah
[12:05 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Love standards ... so many to choose from
[12:06 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Oops, late for next meeting. Must go.
[12:06 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Bye.
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ohh i also have RL
[12:06 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird bye
[12:06 PM PT]  Web Rain: @  
[12:06 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird me too
[12:06 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe.
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: amasing.. rl is a thing..
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ;)
[12:06 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: We are just after the hour mark.
[12:06 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird it is where you end up when you crash
[12:06 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, yes it is.
[12:07 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok cya ppl
[12:07 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:07 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: We should try aking a plan of action on what to do about the DB connectors and tablemigration issues.
[12:07 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Ubit..
[12:07 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird agreed Andrew
[12:07 PM PT]  Motoko.Karu cya ubit
[12:07 PM PT]  Jamie.Jordan thanks yall
[12:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I'll be looking into some way to revise the migration system
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird cheers everyone
[12:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester A final check type thing along with reworking the existing migrations to be a bit more self aware perhaps
[12:08 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Seems like step one would be to decide what should be in main tables and what should be in auxiliary tables or not at all
[12:08 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Have a great week!
[12:08 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: bye Gavin
[12:08 PM PT]  Motoko.Karu take care everyone
[12:09 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Buy all!
[12:09 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Kayaker.
[12:09 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: bye Kayaker
[12:09 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins
[12:09 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: his hat leaves before he does *winks*
[12:09 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: As it is past the hour and people are having to leave I will call this meeting to a close.
[12:09 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:09 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: RL permitting on my end.
[12:10 PM PT]  Web Rain: ty andrew ^^
[12:10 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: yw, Web.
[12:11 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: anybody else getting echos...echos...echos...?
[12:11 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: yw, Web.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: yw, Web.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: yw, Web.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: yw, Web.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: yw, Web.
[12:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not seeing any echos. Echos of audio or text messages?
[12:12 PM PT]  Web Rain: not in my side
[12:12 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: text
[12:12 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok. that's odd. Something must not have thought the text was delivered and did a retry.
[12:12 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: was not
[12:12 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The joys of lludp
[12:13 PM PT]  Web Rain: ha! i forgot a small cosmetic bug ^^
[12:13 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Yup.
[12:13 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I better get going. I have to run out to a local store to pick up some items.
[12:13 PM PT]  Web Rain: osSetParcelDetails don't send a refresh to the viwer when the parcel owner change
[12:14 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Logging still on....
[12:14 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Fine. I've been sitting here for the past hour and only now my cat decides to jump on the table in front of me and lie down.
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