Chat log from the meeting on 2023-10-03

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[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Hi Ubit
[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird we are talking about teh AIS viewer they made default today
[11:31 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: Ok again sorry im late.. so.. what news do we have?
[11:31 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester No commits I can see this week, not much else going on either
[11:32 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I been poking around various things from map to xunit tests, but nothing really to report on that either
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well i did read abotu that some time ago. They changed inventory to support some new tooltips(?) little images
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and moved out od LLUDP to the old and bad AIS
[11:32 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well no plans to support that mess they call AIS
[11:33 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird AIS version 3 of course (new and shinny)
[11:33 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: AIS v3 is like 10 years old
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they also avoid it
[11:34 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes, but they have made it shinier :-)
[11:34 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Polishing a turd
[11:34 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird hehe
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: a big complex mess
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel no plans to support that in nearst future
[11:35 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: OK.
[11:35 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: viwers for opensim should keep old lludp / caps methods
[11:35 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yup
[11:35 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Frankly it really seems like a distraction, look fancy new previews, don't pay attention to the dumpster fire over there
[11:35 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( caps as in http capabilities they use )
[11:35 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Maybe the future of viewers is to have a web browser in the viewer to handle much of the 2D UI.
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah joe
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird SL-18674 Remove UDP fallback for AIS caps not present
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yes they told they would do that
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no problem.. for SL
[11:37 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird sure, when the UI is completely rewriten. It is currently rendered in the OPenGL view
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( joe was not been ironic? )
[11:37 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: A few parts of search and the destinations guide are already in a web browser, I think.
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sound like very ironic to me :p
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well they had web only profiles and moved back to inviewer one
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird rendered in an opengl window with a terrible hack
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird web profiles are removed
[11:38 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Beq did a joke video once showing the viewer UI re-written to move the dialogs outside the OpenGl window...
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Search will be rewamped too as I understand it
[11:39 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Meant to all move into websearch in some form
[11:39 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester For better or worse
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not sure why there was no efford to make a openGL ( or something ) UI
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: every single game or gfame engine has to make its own..  even doing the very basic fonts support
[11:39 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That april fools version of FS with the floaters detached from the main view would have been so cool to have
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in old win one could deatach tabs into own windoes
[11:40 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Many have asked foro it
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on desktop..  for some reason that is less supported
[11:40 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird with a codebase that is almost 25 years, it is difficult to manage
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not sure if issue is old code or new programmers..  but never mind ;)
[11:41 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: LL can hire people to do web-like stuff easily.
[11:42 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird the main issue is backward compatibiliyt for everything people have created
[11:42 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird web apps are such a no-no
[11:42 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well only recently they did hire back ppl with low level graphics skills
[11:42 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but well that is LL...
[11:42 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham It is beancounters failing to manage
[11:42 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Typical
[11:42 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Over the last 18 months LL has been adding game dev people.
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they can do whatever they want for their product SL
[11:43 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird The most importsant thing is that the replacement for Oz is a Mixrosoftie
[11:43 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Microsoftie
[11:43 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Pathetic
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we are not SL..  can't do ( in some cases will not want to do ) all those changes
[11:43 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird his head is only screwed on the Microsoft way
[11:43 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Which is to say it isn't really attached
[11:44 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird hehe
[11:44 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well oz made the move from lludp to http.. not that good in all cases
[11:44 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Not sure Oz had any choice
[11:44 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the new guy is not has visible has oz was  is he?
[11:44 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov:
[11:44 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal seems much is dependent on what happens to FS viewer for OS too, what direction they go
[11:44 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Remember they were planning to move all to Sansar when he did so
[11:44 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird so most likely had a lot to do with that
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so..  back to opensim :)
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: as i said, no plans to implement AIS in near future.. not only it is a nonsense heavy protocol, as it will mean a huge code change
[11:46 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yes
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that will reac grids in possible 2 years..
[11:46 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird imagine standalone with AIS
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: because grids do not update opensim that fast
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so TPVs for opensim need to keep old inventory code, for a few more years..
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I have two repos now  one for each
[11:47 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Or until LL figures out it was a bad idea and changes their mind again
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: .. yes one of tpvs dev already told me his viewer will no longer support opensim..    sad..  but it is what it is
[11:48 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Alchemy?
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not pointing a finger... ;)
[11:48 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird a fact is a fact
[11:48 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Seems like the rest of us could use that info too
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well ppl do change minds.. so lets see
[11:49 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I'm wondering how much I can support, myself. Sharpview is totally organized for variable sized regions but I haven't even started on inventory yet.
[11:49 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Login, move, view yes - beyond that, I'll need help.
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not sure we will work on those tiny icons for inventory items
[11:50 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I am not going to take the AIS cnahges for teh opensim version
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sounds like a large waste of resources of limite use
[11:50 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird maybe perhaps the code to open a folder in a separate window
[11:50 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird which could be useful when building
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is at higher level in code ( or should  be )
[11:51 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes, this is starting to look like inventory as a separate window, run in the embedded browser.
[11:51 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird it is mostly UI
[11:51 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird terrible idea
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: joe embeded brower is damm slow...
[11:51 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I know. Why is that?
[11:51 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird all browser is rendered in opengl
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well its CEF :)
[11:52 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird cef, google code full of all kinds of shit
[11:52 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Hm. Must think about this. Will talk to Beq.
[11:52 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham How do you "wear" something? How does the viewer pass back that info?
[11:52 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham if you separate it into the browser
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: think there is no glue btw brower and UI
[11:53 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird it will make thing infinitely harder to try use the browser
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: brower is web wonly
[11:53 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Which means your are braking the inventory integration with the rest of the viewer
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: drwas its things on it is mostly a texture for  opengl ???
[11:54 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham *breaking
[11:54 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird browser is run as a separate detached process ourtside the viewer sandbox, and you have to poke a hole in it to make the viewer inject oages that opengl can render
[11:54 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham There are several inventory functions that require integration
[11:55 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird so it is very flaky, also from a security point of view
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nop ide if even CEF as the low level api needed to full control a UI inside a page
[11:55 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Or at least communication.
[11:55 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Right click in the inventory window and look at the list of things
[11:55 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham All of those require integration
[11:55 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Something is very wrong with this picture
[11:56 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yeah. Needs more thought.
[11:56 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Have to go; back next week. Thanks.
[11:56 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Bye Joe
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: cya joe
[11:56 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham This is Linden comping up with this idea, right? What else is new
[11:56 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester "Needs more thought" LL motto right there
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what idea orbert.Tatham ?
[11:57 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham The inventory in a browser window
[11:57 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I think they are working on a viewer for Xbox, and it has to be shiny and have all kinds of stuff other xbox games / apps have
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not sure if they even consider that
[11:58 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham What else is new
[11:58 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I need to head out soon
[11:58 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal FYI I will be absent from this meeting for the next few weeks, back in November
[11:58 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Laterz Cuga
[11:58 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal so don;t fix any bugs with unmanaged libs :)
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oh ok Cuga.Rajal
[11:58 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Knowing the xbox clientele that'll mesh really well with the folks usually hanging out on SL, that'll be pretty explosion to watch
[11:59 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal a lot of emotional chat threads now in SL about viewer direction
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well any othet topic?
[12:00 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird are there?
[12:00 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird not really
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: browsing log bf i arrived.. rasp 5 :)
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird I only made the viewers compile with Xcode 15 and C  17 the past week
[12:01 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham I seriously hope that Joe will make a viewer that will stick with OpenSim, because these kind of LL f'ups are going to make that very difficult even for Beq
[12:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: seems AIS was the main topic today :)
[12:01 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal or Gavin
[12:01 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal or both :)
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: if you look to that SL wiki gavin pasted for AIS you notice it is a 2013 thing
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that even ll ignored until now
[12:03 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Perhaps they are smarter than they realized
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov:
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: or where? :P
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in fact they did noy update that since 2013 ir seems
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so already outdated...
[12:05 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham It was outdated when it was created, but that hasn't changed anything
[12:06 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Gota run, RL chores to get to
[12:06 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird they are not fast to update their documentation...
[12:06 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I need to head aout too.. Take care everybody. See you in November
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wlel rl calls me...
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: again sorry i was so late :(
[12:07 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: any other urgent topic?
[12:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok see you all next week
[12:08 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Peace
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