Chat log from the meeting on 2023-09-12

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[11:07 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:07 AM PT]  Jamie.Jordan i'm watching now
[11:08 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird yeah
[11:08 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Sorry I'm late. I was chatting with what was supposed to be a real person at eBay regarding an issue with their site. It took a while.
[11:10 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Hello all!
[11:10 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I've been looking into exactly how connecting to a new region and event polling work. Discussion on SL forums:
[11:10 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Kayaker.
[11:11 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Let's see, no code changes this week. Just some behind the scenes things and lots of head banging against walls heh
[11:12 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The xunit tests project still stuck in the same place trying to make the tests work in visual studio without using nuget
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yes.. opensim devs are been ing lazy.. no new code last week
[11:14 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:15 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Let's call it a vacation, too warm for work anyways
[11:16 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I have only planned out how to revert the viewer for OpenSim to the old profiles
[11:16 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was doing some work while sitting outside in the recent heat spell. The temperatures have dropped to more reasonable levels as of a couple days ago.
[11:17 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I look forward to seeing working profiles once more.
[11:17 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Actually speaking about viewers, do they still use the V1 maptiles for anything or is that just a thing with old viewers now?
[11:18 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: V1 maptlles?
[11:18 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The terrainImage asset things I mean
[11:18 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Think they are referenced in regionInfo
[11:18 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I don't use it, but maybe the COOL VL viewer does
[11:18 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: It is possible Cool still does. I haven't used that viewer in some time.
[11:18 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: What's the new way of doing it?
[11:19 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:19 AM PT]  Motoko.Karu Hihi Lyr...
[11:19 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo waves
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: )
[11:19 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Grid can directly supply the map image of a given coordinate. Think V1 tiles are just one image per region so they are not multiple tiles for var regions
[11:19 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, V1 and V2 mostly refer to the type of viewer.
[11:20 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Oh, map tiles, not terrain tiles.
[11:20 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: yes, map stuff.
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: about the region login protocol.. well my memory its 2 bad to coment that information correctly :)
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and in fact at opensim it is a lot guess work to make current (at the time) viewers happy
[11:21 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I'm working on documenting the region connection protocol. More next week.
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yes im talking about that
[11:22 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: On map tiles, I have a web site that draws the SL map. Not sure if it's using V1 or V2.
[11:22 AM PT]  Joe Magarac:
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on V1 the map tile is a asset
[11:22 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga
[11:22 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Ah. I get them from the map tile server.
[11:22 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird an asset that keeps filling databases
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on v2 viewers fetch map from a special map service
[11:23 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Hi all, sorry late
[11:23 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: np, Cuga
[11:23 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: OK, I'm using V2 then.
[11:23 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Try the link above, hold down CNTL, and move the left mouse button.
[11:23 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That's the thing too, it makes maptiles more complex and adds assets for each new generated map, so a spam and extra data for something we already have
[11:23 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird ...reminds me to clear out the latest month worth of tiles
[11:24 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I'm wondering if it may not be time to remove that entirely and instead either build something that generates them on the fly when they are requested or just not at all
[11:25 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Never mind, the map proxy is broken again.
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: build a map image on the fly?  jezz you moved to i9 cpus now?
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:25 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:25 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester regioninfo contains the handle and size of the region so from that you can then ask robust to give you the tiles and viewer probably a lot quicker on gpu
[11:26 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird 2660 useless records in the database
[11:26 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Well seeing as using in-memory image combining only takes a few ms on cpu it would be possible
[11:26 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird SELECT (`name`), id, FROM_UNIXTIME(create_time)
FROM assets WHERE `name` LIKE '%terrainImage%'
ORDER BY create_time DESC;
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: region inof also tells viewers the map asset id
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: still on spec
[11:27 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I have been looking into building 3D maps by taking 2D pictures from various angles and feeding them into Open Drone Mapper.
[11:27 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, nebadon had used that technique to get some nice looking map tiles.
[11:28 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Nice. Contact info for nebadon?
[11:28 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo smiles
[11:28 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: The goal is that beyond draw distance, I want to switch to low-rez 3d models of distant regions, so you can see a long, long way.
[11:28 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Not sure that he will be easy to contact given his schedule
[11:29 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, I'll IM you his website address
[11:29 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Thanks.
[11:29 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Probably could modify warp3d to change how it takes pictures for something like that
[11:29 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what for? map is from above :p
[11:29 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:31 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I'm just concerned with the whole doubling up of data, having an asset maptile when robust already serves them directly, two solutions to do the same thing in the end
[11:31 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Plus that whole asset spam yeah
[11:31 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: warp3d does have some options on camera height
[11:32 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I would like to see a way to cache the heightmap of the terrain so it doesn't have to be re-download every time you re-visit a var region
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well i did consider setting the asset to a fallback constant one..  but no idea abotu all viewer still outther
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess will do it one day :)
[11:34 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Another option I considered was writing something into the asset server that the tiles could be "registered" to and reference the regions table to clean itself of the old ones
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: those assets do have a temporary flag set on the DBs
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm possilble also a map one
[11:35 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That flag isn't really working though in general
[11:35 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I keep finding temporary assets created months ago still in there
[11:35 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: The height map can change dynamically if someone edits terrain.
[11:36 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal viewers could check if maptiles or heightmap still valid with uuid or some identifier before sending whole thing
[11:36 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal just an idea
[11:36 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester A hash of sorts
[11:36 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester But then that's something viewer has to support as well
[11:37 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester New cap essentially
[11:37 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal true, a viewer change
[11:37 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird each map tile has a time stamp
[11:37 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal but woukld cut down asset spam
[11:37 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird so you can purge all but the latests unique versions
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: asset.Flags = AssetFlags.Maptile;
[11:38 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I'm looking at external 3D terrain impostors for Sharpview. The idea is to only render about 4 regions for real. Everything else is a stored 3D impostor.
[11:38 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The OS code isn't meant to delete assets. Ubit, is there any code in OS to delete temporary assets or is that a job left for an external process/program?
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yes we try to delete them every time we make a new onw
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ...
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: private void GenerateMaptile(Bitmap mapbmp)
            bool needRegionSave = false;

            // remove old assets
            UUID lastID = m_scene.RegionInfo.RegionSettings.TerrainImageID;
            if (!lastID.IsZero())
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ...
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: like that :p
[11:39 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird the name of the maptile  is terrainImage_169d1572-58c1-4ccf-8517-7409cd5cf4c9 where the uuid at the end is the region id for the maptile
[11:40 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird so based on that and the timestamp you can unique a single tile for each region
[11:40 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Here's what I'm trying to do:
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not sure if fsassets lets assets to be deleted.. that is other issue
[11:40 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Temp assets created from hg things are removed from database, I keep finding the files for them on disk with the db entry missing, so there is something that deletes them, just not working all that reliably it seems or there are additional conditions
[11:42 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I need to check for var regions, but I think regioninfo only contains a single uuid for those too so the image that is put there has to be of the entire region
[11:42 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well default maps are region/grid job
[11:44 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: var regions get a image 256px or 512px
[11:44 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Either way we technically don't need the asset as robust can serve maptiles, just not var regions as one image
[11:44 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird rather than doing an insert for each new region maptile version, you could in code do an upsert rather. which would keep just one tile per region
[11:45 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I'm thinking that mapping is a job for a bot that flies over once a week or so.
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: using(Bitmap scaledbmp = Util.ResizeImageSolid(mapbmp, (int)(bx * scale), (int)(by * scale)))
                                data = OpenJPEG.EncodeFromImage(scaledbmp, true);
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: like that :p
[11:45 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Don't need simulator code for it.
[11:45 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird the upsert is just changed sql
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i can only talk about opensim ...
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and what we see most viewers do
[11:46 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Viewer gets regionInfo then asks assets for the tile, So if asset server knows "this uuid is a tile, ask robust", robust could then provide it, even teaching it to make combined tiles for var regions wouldn't be hard
[11:46 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Just fly over at about 128m above ground level and take an orthographic picture.
[11:47 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Not in UUID asset system at all. Separate server.
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ??
[11:47 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: For 3D map tiles.
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: a asset is a asset.. maps have no special handling
[11:48 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Height above ground level will vary based on the region size.
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: except that flag
[11:48 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Over in SL, the maps are in a completely different server system.
[11:49 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird or you have regions where there are steep inclines where the terrain raise from water level to 250 meters over a distance of say 50 meters
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: warp3d does take ortho from above
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and at opensim we do gen them on regions because only thsoe get all the relevant contents
[11:49 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: ah, you already have that simulator side.
[11:49 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Joe, in OpenSim, it must also work in standalone. we can't have loads of specialized  servers
[11:50 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right. I'm looking at this mostly for SL mainland.
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: then regiosn do upload them as asset for v1 viewers and to the map service..
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sl does the same
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well or similar
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you get maps from the SL map service
[11:51 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes.
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in fact you can get them even with a webbrowser
[11:51 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Though that's not working right now.
[11:52 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: rror>
[11:52 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:52 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right.
[11:52 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well i don't know.. that is sl :p
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: thikn that is not the api for viewers also..
[11:54 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester We generate the tile and store it as asset, uuid of which ends up in the regions table. So we technically don't need to store the asset at all. Just need to teach asset server "if uuid not found check regions table regionMapTexture" if present there just ask robust map service to fetch the tile corresponding to that region. If it is a var we then would only need to tell robust to combine the individual tiles into one.
[11:54 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Problem is that approach makes assets a bit heavy unless the regions table data is cached
[11:54 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: OK.
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ufff
[11:54 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Defer to robust is also not ideal
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we store as a asset, because that is what viewers v1 want... period
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no relation with the map service
[11:55 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Yes
[11:55 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Ah.
[11:55 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Where asset server gets the data though doesn't matter so long as it is served as asset
[11:56 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester If it has to ask map service for it and then serve it that could work, but is a bit of a roundabout way of doing it
[11:56 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: It is 5 minutes to the top of the hour. Does anyone have a question or comment about something other than maptiles?
[11:56 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: Had a weird problem over on aviworlds (9.2.1).  My avatar there (sitting behind me) couldn't fly more than one second without bugsplatting.  I TP'd her to my region on osgrid (9.2.2) and flew around for awhile, went back to aviworlds and it's been fine since.
[11:57 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Actual SL map tile URL:
[11:58 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Definitely sounds like an odd problem, Jagga.
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird bugsplatting?
[11:58 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester viewer crash
[11:59 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Did you try a relog at aviworlds before you TP'd to your region and back?
[11:59 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: yes, several times, also cleared cache
[11:59 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Sorry, have to go, next meeting. Thanks all.
[11:59 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: oh. I thought you meant that the avi kept falling to the ground instead of flying.
[11:59 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for droppingby.
[11:59 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, what viewer were you using?
[11:59 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: FS latest
[12:00 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith:
[12:00 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[12:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Viewer does keep logs so if you can repeat the crash save the log file afterwards so it can be examined
[12:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester First need to figure out what it is crashing on
[12:01 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: k
[12:02 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester From OpenSim end the options are too plentiful, knowing what the viewer expects to happen or what data it doesn't get would give the pointer on where to look
[12:03 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Though as development moves if it isn't an issue with current release or dev versions up to the grid to backport a fix I guess
[12:04 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The fix teleporting to a newer version suggest something with avatar data packaging, but hard to say what exactly
[12:04 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: There is a viewer crash that is related to the terrain, look and see if there are holes in the terrain just before the crash.
[12:04 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: Can't get Simularity to install on Windows 11.  Wants a certain version of vlc library.  Installing C   etc. didn't help
[12:05 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Certain terrain shapes cause it, changing the terrain slightly with a terrain tool set low will fill in the holes, then the crash goes away.
[12:05 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: ok, was happening in multiple relgions.  basiclly couldn't fly at all
[12:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Does this happen every time you login or has the problem now gone away entirely even after relog?
[12:07 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: gone for good far as I can tell
[12:08 PM PT]  Jagga.Meredith brb
[12:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Then unless FS happened to make a dump folder for those crashes and kept a log copy will be hard to track down
[12:10 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird Since FS use Bugsplat, the dump is formatted for it, so you most likely have to have Bugsplat to analyze the dump
[12:10 PM PT]  Jagga.Meredith yup
[12:10 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It used to keep a dump file and log copy, though the latter not always worked right sometimes it'd be 0kb
[12:11 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: ok thanks
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester If it doesn't happen anymore could be some bad data, moving grids serializing the data for transmit might have fixed something
[12:12 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: yeah
[12:12 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Very little input validation otherwise
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: cya ppl
[12:13 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit. See you next week.
[12:13 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: that's what I was trying to accomplish by TPing to osgrid region.  it's huge
[12:13 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Any final thoughts before we wrap up todays meeting?
[12:14 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird nope
[12:14 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok. That will conclude this weeks gathering.
[12:14 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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