Chat log from the meeting on 2023-07-18

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[11:00 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hello!
[11:02 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jamie.
[11:02 AM PT]  Jamie.Jordan Hi everybody
[11:02 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Mista Cuga
[11:03 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Hi all :) I made it on time today
[11:03 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga
[11:05 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Slow week, no big updates to speak of besides more probing for bugs
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah lazy opensim devs
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oos
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oops
[11:06 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham lol
[11:06 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:06 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester LL been busy adding more weird functions, same ole same ole
[11:07 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, anything that looks useful?
[11:07 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Is that a tricky question?
[11:07 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Some more regex lunacy
[11:07 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: It might be.
[11:08 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Joe.
[11:08 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Hi!
[11:09 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hello
[11:09 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Hey Joe
[11:09 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Did I miss anything important?
[11:09 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: no
[11:11 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I have a follow-up on the issue I brought up 2 weeks ago with llDetectedLinkNumber(), and a question about a couple lsl functions
[11:11 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Does anyone have any questions for today?
[11:11 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Cuga. Continue
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: every ns of our company is important, you missed tons of those
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:11 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal That problem with llDetectedLinkNumber() on physical linksets, is Bullet only
[11:11 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal MtBlue is looking at it
[11:11 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal opened a ticket
[11:12 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal MrMlue*
[11:12 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester You don't happen to know if the fix will come along with a general update of Bullet?
[11:13 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I don't know if the issue is in the core Bullet library or in the OS interface
[11:13 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Ah gotcha
[11:13 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal but the issue has likely been there for years
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: is os code side, ofx
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc
[11:13 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester lol
[11:13 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal thats my thinking
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not sure if bullet even keeps a single mesh per prim
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: think at a point it did tried to merge all
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so losing any prim id
[11:14 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal this is weirder
[11:15 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal it goes beyond the LSL function
[11:15 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal so anyway, I'll be using ubODE for my dempolition derby game for now :)
[11:15 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal demolition*
[11:16 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal also I saw a couple differences in LSL functions from SL, wondering if there are plans to bring parity
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on some, not realy
[11:16 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Which ones, Cuga?
[11:16 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal llSetClickAction() doesn;t accept CLICK_ACTION_DISABLED
[11:17 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal but if I change to CLICK_ACTION_NOE works fine
[11:17 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal not sure about difference
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oh that is a thing lol
[11:18 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal also
[11:18 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal llLinkPlaySound, in SL takes 3 args, in OS takes 2
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: public void llSetClickAction(int action)
            m_host.ClickAction = (byte)action;
            m_host.ParentGroup.HasGroupChanged = true;
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: does not do much
[11:19 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Leaves the byte being wrong or handled wrong when clickaction is checked
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: public void llLinkPlaySound(LSL_Integer linknumber, string sound, double volume)
[11:20 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal but in SL there is also a flag
[11:20 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, that seems odd. Why would it set a group changed flag due to a click action?
[11:20 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: public void llLinkPlaySound(LSL_Integer linknumber, string sound, double volume, LSL_Integer flags)
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i chnaged that not long ago
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so os should that both forms now
[11:20 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal oh you added the flags?
[11:20 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal cool
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeap the 3 args is a short for flgas = 0
[11:21 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal the flags include an option for SOUND_LOOP, SOUND_TRIGGER, SOUND_PLAY, so kind of useful
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: a mess
[11:21 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I was getting error when adding flag, must have been an older build, thanks
[11:21 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester public void llLinkPlaySound(LSL_Integer linknumber, string sound, double volume, LSL_Integer flags)
[11:21 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Definitely there
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that on same prim is like 3 dif functions
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but i did work on that a few months?? aog
[11:22 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I was getting an error about wrong number of args, removed flag and it compiled
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on dotnet6 branch..
[11:22 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal more recent that a few mos afgo
[11:23 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal actually  3-4 wks ago
[11:23 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I'll check again
[11:23 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal it was ok for me cuz I only needed to play a sound, which seemed to be a default
[11:24 AM PT]  Object: Script running
[11:24 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I mean I have it in my mono branch so must have gone in at some point
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm guess did not defined the constants
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: efault
          llLinkPlaySound(LINK_ROOT, "some_sound", 1.0, 0);
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: just compiled here
[11:25 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I was using the constant SOUND_PLAY and got error
[11:26 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal for flag
[11:26 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal does that work?
[11:26 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal or SOUND_TRIGGER
[11:27 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: just did
[11:27 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal ok then must have been old build, thanks for checking
[11:27 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester script base class doesn't seem to have them yeah think just missing the constants
[11:27 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester lsl api checks direct numbers
[11:27 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: seems i did not added the flags aliases
[11:27 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal ah that must have been it
[11:27 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The links on wiki are still red which is question if the constant might not get renamed
[11:28 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Was added earlier this year from the history, some time February
[11:29 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I just used it recently on a build so only now discovered
[11:29 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Easy to add constants :)
[11:29 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal :)
[11:29 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:30 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal while youre at it, might add CLICK_ACTION_DISABLED to llSetClickAction
[11:31 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Hm yeah that's missing too you are right
[11:31 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester NONE is there tho
[11:31 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal yeah
[11:31 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Isn't that the same?
[11:31 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal different
[11:31 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal
[11:32 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal almost same :)
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester This seems... strange, but yeah easy to add, some constants and more lsl api code yay
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Seems kinda redundant if you don't want to handle clicks for some reason just don't put touch event or set something to ignore it for time being
[11:34 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Changing click action or if (ignore_clicks) same thing really
[11:34 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal yeah I don;t know why they did that
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not sure all viewers will honour that
[11:34 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Well that's always a question when it comes to UI manipulation
[11:35 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Same with sale price and stuff, viewers should but don't have to honor it
[11:37 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester While you are at it maybe you can review all the other lsl functions? ;)
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: all is a lot :p
[11:37 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I use quite a few on my builds :)
[11:38 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal thats all I got! :)
[11:39 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal don't get me started LOL
[11:40 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal still waiting for llSetForce() on attachments :)
[11:40 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester xD
[11:41 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I have a reason I want it!
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: will not work
[11:41 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal but thats a dead horse, I understand
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: because avatars motors
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: think does a mess at sl also
[11:42 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I bet that is very messy under the hood in SL
[11:42 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It probably could work, but it would be an even bigger mess
[11:42 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester And physics glitching out sending you to outer space is not fun for everyone
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: avatars have special motors, not compatible with that
[11:43 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal the avatar motor would have to adjust its settings with that
[11:44 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal new avatar motor code
[11:44 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Yeah that's easier said than done
[11:44 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal if it's not broken...
[11:45 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal well thats everything I had for today
[11:45 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Cuga.
[11:45 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Anyone else?
[11:49 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Nothing here
[11:49 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Only thing I have that I wanna bring attention to is mantis 3843
[11:49 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It seems between unlinking and re-linking prims we can make ghost entries in the database that come back after a restart
[11:50 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That problem is back again? I haven't seen that in a while.
[11:51 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Well I kept seeing things again and after last time I decided to not just pass it off as me getting old
[11:51 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Did leave a comment on there with some info on how to reproduce
[11:52 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The unlink it detects almost instantly and writes to disk, but when relinking and deleting it looks like the prims are gone, but they are still in the database
[11:52 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The deletion or taking into inventory seems to cancel the process of deleting the single unlinked prims, the linkset is added and then removed when it is taken to inventory
[11:52 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: There is a comment in there with a set of steps that is supposed to reproduce the issue.
[11:53 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Take linkset, unlink a single prim from it, duplicate that prim, then link everything again and take to inventory. The unlinked prim remains in database, but region reports empty
[11:54 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I know that in regards to those operations they are not written to disk instantly to avoid spamming the database, what is odd that running backup command on console doesn't remove the prim either
[11:55 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Haven't tried writing an oar, but given that should use memory it likely would be empty too
[11:55 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It's wild when you restart a region and suddenly prims are back that you know you deleted
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not when you a familiar with the concepts of vodoo
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:56 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester xD
[11:56 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:56 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I've seen that on my region periodically but no idea how to reproduce
[11:57 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham I have seen it too, just not often and not under known contitions
[11:57 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It takes quite a bit of time for it to register that you relinked the prims, most I seen was 90 seconds
[11:58 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester If you wait it will eventually sync the database, but yeah it's meant to be "lazy" in doing that, just a bit of a problem if it never double checks
[11:59 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Suppose it needs some form of queue to register the deletion instantly, but just wait a bit before executing it
[11:59 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: It should have a queueof operationsto performbutit does soundlike one of the steps removes an item (or items) from the queue or clears the queue.
[12:00 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That would even allow for immediate region restart right after to register as it can work through that then before shutdown
[12:00 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Question is, given it is about relinking, how this is detected and where the information is being lost exactly
[12:00 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I have not been able to figure that part out
[12:02 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting.
[12:02 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Peace Joe
[12:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by
[12:03 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal this unlinking and relinking is a very common operation for builders. Happens a lot where building goes on. So this is important issue.
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok rl also calling
[12:03 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Especially dropping something, editing it real quick and taking back to inventory
[12:03 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Take care
[12:03 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: have a great week
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: cya later
[12:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The date on the report also indicates it is a very old issue going back to 2009.
[12:04 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: yes, saw that
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: byee :)
[12:04 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Originally was reported as potentially being a cache issue, but that probably no longer applies, similar in how it manifests though
[12:05 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: See you later *waves*
[12:05 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Laters, Ubit
[12:05 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Peace, Lyr
[12:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. I thought Ubit was saying bye to Joe or Lyr.
[12:07 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Tracking down the source of the problem will probably require some deep diving in to the code.
[12:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Yeah, I have not had time nor the brain to dig in there
[12:07 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal looks complicated
[12:08 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Can you disable the cachine and work backwards?
[12:08 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham *caching?
[12:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I don't think it is the cache, it manifests as such, but I think flotsam is not to blame
[12:08 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: A starting point might be watching events sent from the viewer to OpenSim. Probably watch the SOG code to see how what events it receives.
[12:09 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It's likely that some delay in relinking meant to stop it being so heavy blocking further info coming through
[12:09 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Or the fact taking to inventory and linking are two unaware parts of code
[12:10 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham That makes it difficult, yeah
[12:10 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I just had a thought that it is also possible it could be something at the viewer end.
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I tried clearing cache to see if the objects came back thinking perhaps object viewer cache
[12:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Is the viewer properly sending out all the relevant messages to the OS backed?
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester But nope the running memory the simulator holds does not contain them anymore, just the database
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Linking and unlinking has some delays so it doesn't nuke region performance so I feel like those might cause that deletion to get lost
[12:12 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That's my best guess
[12:12 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hm... seems like a message is getting lost between updating the cache and updating the database.
[12:12 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester There is nothing in cache or region runtime memory far as I can tell, it's the database lagging behind I suppose
[12:13 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It just appears as related to cache since that's usually what caches do
[12:14 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I need to head out..   I hope that turns out to be something simple :)
[12:14 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester :)
[12:14 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal see you all next week :)
[12:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I used to have a tool to capture the messages that pass between viewer and Open Sim. I don't remember what it was called or if it would still work.
[12:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Cuga. See you next week.
[12:16 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Some of that comes through http debug, but I think this might all be lludp so fetching that might be harder
[12:16 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That said just adding debug logging everywhere usually works
[12:17 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The program acted as a proxy and allowed messages to be filtered for display and could decode the data to make it easier to see and understand the message traffic.
[12:18 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Suppose you can do that with any sort of vpn like client routing traffic through or even wireshark
[12:19 PM PT]  Jamie.Jordan Have a great week yall
[12:19 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, although it wouldn't know the specific messages of OS.
[12:19 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ok, Jamie. See you later.
[12:19 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester You'd have to decode the bytes yes
[12:20 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Yes. Just would take a bit more time and effort to do that.
[12:20 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'll see if I can remember what the program was called that I used to use.
[12:20 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: We are past the hour mark. Time to wrap up todays meeting.
[12:20 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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