Chat log from the meeting on 2023-07-11

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[11:00 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:00 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hello *grins*
[11:00 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Here we are again for another gathering on a Tuesday.
[11:01 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Last weeks commits were fixes to problems found with the changes to sensors. Math is hard, especially when it's really warm
[11:03 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird July is really cold, so now you can think again
[11:03 AM PT]  Tess JL: Oh, I thought it was the math that was really warm, not the weather
[11:03 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: where actually old issues
[11:04 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on math acos
[11:04 AM PT]  Selby.Evans hi everyone
[11:04 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird math is never warm :-)
[11:04 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: it easy for math to get a cos close to 1.0 like 1.000001
[11:04 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: with that math.acos will return a NaN
[11:05 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham As it should
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: while for us there, it is 0
[11:05 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: Fourier Transform?
[11:05 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham I was guessing 32-bit floating point
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so just had to waste time checking values close to 1 and -1
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nopes same with doubles
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: one ot mantis cases did got a cos of 1.00001 on float ( or similar) and 1.000000001 ( similar ) with double
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some NaN result
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well that matnis that did responde Nourth ans south was teh case -1.000001
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: also Nan not PI
[11:08 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I thought everyone knew that 2*2=3.99999999999
[11:08 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc
[11:09 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: 2 2 approaches the value of 4
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: 1/3   2/3 = 0.999999999999
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( uff damm schools telling kids to use calculators..)
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: many never realy learn that that is ( 1   2) / 3
[11:11 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird like when they have to use a calculator to figure the result of 220 - 120
[11:11 AM PT]  Jamie.Jordan Hi everybody
[11:12 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: found my old Grade 13 Math textbooks.  Damn we were doing some complex stuff back then
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so those where the week code changes, i thing
[11:14 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have all of my Grade 13 math textbooks: Functions, Calculus, and Algebra. I took all three the same school year. I like math. :)
[11:14 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith:
[11:15 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Joe.
[11:15 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird or when the answer to: if you drive to the nearest town that is 50 miles away and your drive at 50 miles per hour, how long will it take you to get there? - almost everyone answered somewhere between 20 and 35 minutes
[11:15 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: dog
[11:15 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, depending on traffic.
[11:15 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:15 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I get it, cause they are all driving over the speed limit anyways xD
[11:15 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird you were driving at 50 miles per hour
[11:15 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Who has a question about OpenSim today?
[11:16 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird correct Vincent
[11:16 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Me.
[11:16 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I'm still trying to figure out glTF.
[11:16 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, get us back on track, Joe.
[11:16 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: Andrew: Elements of Modern Mathematics - Gage, Green cover?
[11:16 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: OK. So I have about half of glTF figured out.
[11:16 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, no
[11:17 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: The big remaining problem is getting the simulator to tell me about scale/rotation/offset of the new textures.
[11:17 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: These are apparently sent in, of all things, LargeGenericMessage UDP messages.
[11:17 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Or at least I can see the decode for that in the LL viewer.
[11:17 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Motoko
[11:17 AM PT]  Motoko.Karu Hihi Everyone... Hihi Andrew... sorry for the lateness
[11:18 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: But I can't get either SL or Ubit's test region to send those to me.
[11:18 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I have to do something first from viewer side,
[11:18 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: But what?
[11:18 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: But what?
[11:19 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Hello?
[11:19 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Is anybody getting this?
[11:20 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: yup
[11:20 AM PT]  Motoko.Karu I see your chat's @joe
[11:20 AM PT]  Jamie.Jordan yep
[11:20 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I don't have the foggiest idea what you talk about...
[11:20 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Oh, dear.
[11:21 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Nobody overviews the mess that is the combined viewer and server code
[11:21 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: OK. SL and OS are both adding the ability to use materials in the public standard called glTF, Graphics Lanuage Transport Format.
[11:21 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird some of it works, just because it works (like old COBOL code)
[11:22 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: This is mostly working in test regions of SL and OS, and in the Linden project viewer, which won't talk to OS.
[11:22 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird what test regions?
[11:22 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird the AIS ones?
[11:22 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Ubit's test region.
[11:22 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird what SL test regions?
[11:23 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Ubit would prefer I not give too many details at this stage.
[11:23 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: In SL, Rumpus Room 1 to Rumpus Room 4.
[11:23 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird ok, why do you even ask then?
[11:23 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Because it's not a secret how SL does it. It's just obscure.
[11:24 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Has LL even finished making up their mind yet what it will be in protocol and all that, still seems in testing with changes potentially still coming later
[11:24 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Following their ideas lately has been mind boggling
[11:24 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: The LL viewer has reached Release Candidate stage.
[11:25 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There are main grid regions with new materials turned on.
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Rumpus are the PBR regions
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird the code is far from finished
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird it si not release candidate
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird in fact LL has said it is alpaa
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird and there will be a test perido of about a year
[11:25 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: The viewer is release candidate.
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird there are major sections of code not working
[11:26 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird It is a project viewer
[11:26 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo nods at Gavin
[11:26 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Wait one.
[11:27 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester ll releasing something into the wild only to find it is actually still broken... need more fingers to count hold on
[11:27 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they have a beta viewer
[11:27 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: LL viewer is a Release Candidate and supports materials.
[11:28 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the version 7 series is pbr viewer
[11:28 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right.
[11:28 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: As far as I can tell, all the new material stuff works there with the SL test regions.
[11:29 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Beq Janus has a version of Firestorm in private test which uses that code.
[11:29 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Once that works it should be possible to talk to Open Simulator with it.
[11:29 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird Please note that recently, this feature has only been available as an early Alpha Project on our Beta grid (Aditi) and then only on specific regions:

Materials Adult
Rumpus Room (and Rumpus Room 2, 3, and 4)
Refer to the “Known Issues” section for more information.

Second Life is excited to take the next step and ship the GLTF PBR Materials viewer as a Release Candidate, offered to a small group of Residents, but as an RC anyone may install it. At this time the Second Life main grid does not support GLTF PBR Materials…
[11:30 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right. It's advanced from Project to Release Candidate.
[11:30 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird But the grid does not support it
[11:30 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Can't help but think that just around when the viewer is getting upgrades to increase performance, adding somewhat performance hungry fancy materials is somewhat counterproductive. Just from the point of view of what the viewer side actually needs focussing on that stuff just to have some new shiny things... eh
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah but we can log with 7 on main now
[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird no TPV developer are allowed to release any such support till it is an official release
[11:31 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: log on main grid, i mean
[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird which according to LL will be around a year from now
[11:31 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right, which is why Firestorm is keeping it quiet.
[11:31 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Vincent, LL hired Microsoft people, all they care about is new and shiny
[11:32 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: No, that's the next phase: glTF OBJECTS.
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: since when GPL can have such restrictions? :)
[11:32 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird it is untested and code in pre beta uality
[11:32 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Like trying to run the quarter mile before bolting the cylinder head down
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well connection to their main grid can have restricions...
[11:32 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird release for sue on SL
[11:32 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird use*
[11:32 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There's two parts to this. glTF materials (albedo, normal, roughness, metaillic, and emissive layers) and gltf objects (replaces COLLADA).
[11:33 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Materials are almost ready to go. Objects are a year away.
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but possible to try to use that current code may be a waste of time.. it may get a lot of changes still ???
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Just what we need an even more annoying mesh standard to deal with
[11:33 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: You may be right.
[11:33 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird I am sorry but I am not going to waste time on discussing pre-relase SL code
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well gavin tols that materials are 1 year away :)
[11:34 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird have a great meeeting
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: told...
[11:34 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I will ask at Server User Group in LL in half an hour about the deployment plan.
[11:35 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I go to Server User Group and Creator User Group in SL, and it's discussed as something that's close and people need to get ready for.
[11:35 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Sounds a bit like you tunnelvisioned on that, everything else already implemented in your viewer?
[11:36 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: No, I'm doing minor stuff while waiting for a major rewrite of WGPU to land.
[11:36 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: What is WGPU?
[11:37 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: WGPU is a graphics layer for drawing.
[11:37 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Let ll flail around on their fancy ideas instead of trying to make sense of it when they likely still haven't settled on what to do finally. I have found that to be the less stressful approach
[11:37 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: You may be right. I thought this was going to be easy, because my own viewer is already PBR.
[11:37 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, ok. The W made me think it was some Windows related thing.
[11:38 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Andrew, it is multiplatform - Linux, Windows, Mac
[11:38 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham in theory
[11:38 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:38 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes.
[11:39 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Linux and Windows work fine. Mac is still a problem.
[11:40 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[11:41 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: For those who don't know, I've written a new viewer, Sharpview, in Rust. All new code, no LL code.
[11:41 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Download user name is "devs", password "thread".
[11:41 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Very experimental. Use a low-value alt account.
[11:42 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Did you fix the mac address hashing?
[11:42 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Will do OsGrid but I can't get past Kitely's home region.
[11:42 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Actually, yes. But I can't build for Mac yet.
[11:42 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, is it self contained or does one need to install some Rust libraries in order to run the viewer?
[11:43 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: All the libraries come from Rust crates and are pulled in during the build process automatically.
[11:43 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Not mac as in the machine I mean the login data, the mac address you sent last time I checked was plaintext, it should be hashed
[11:43 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Huh. I get a match on Mac address with what SL expects.
[11:44 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, that link is just for the source code?
[11:44 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: No, that's something you can run.
[11:44 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: It's not open source at this time.
[11:44 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: There are Windows and Linux executables.
[11:44 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: np. It is why I was asking if one needs to install any Rust libraries before they can run the program.
[11:45 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester All other viewer logins in my logs, about 50k logins at that, every other viewer sends a hashed mac address rather than plaintext hex bytes, it will trip up any security setup to make sure the mac address is the correct format if you put the plaintext bytes there
[11:45 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Nope. Self-contained.
[11:45 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, ty
[11:45 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Hm. I'm not getting SL alarms, but will check that. Password is hashed per spec.
[11:47 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Both Id0 and mac should be a hexdecimal string of some 30 chars or something, that's what all other viewers send. Sending plaintext mac address any length check or regex applied to make sure the format is correct might block login on grids that do have such systems in place, which aren't many
[11:48 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It's a simple hash mind you, nothing really secure, but not sending plaintext mac addresses along with the IP that already needs to be sent, well don't need much more data to be mean to a user and play around in their network
[11:48 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Adds a bit of security and privacy for them I suppose
[11:49 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: It has to match what SL does exactly, and I will look at the LL viewer again and match that.
[11:49 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes, I know how banning works, and won't discuss it here.
[11:49 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Well if you want to support OpenSim there will be differences anyways, this might just be another
[11:50 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester We have a few protocol differences and additional features so building a universal viewer to connect to both platforms some switching needs to be done
[11:50 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Profiles, bakes, assets to name a few
[11:50 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I've found surprisingly few differences so far. I don't actually have an "OpenSim mode". Just varregion support.
[11:51 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Although I can't connect to GroovyVerse at all. Login always times out.
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: major dif are avatar bakes
[11:51 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I think we have a page on the wiki somewhere with the differences or maybe I am hallucinating again
[11:52 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right. I'm hoping that OS gets to server side baking before I have to get there.
[11:52 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Yeah no, what point would that make. Why do texture operations on cpu when the viewer has a gpu it can hand that off to which will perform much faster than a cpu ever will
[11:53 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Because you only have to do it once for all users, and don't have to send all those textures to the viewer. Bakes on mesh shrinks the asset.
[11:54 AM PT]  Tess JL: Is there a significant amount of bandwidth to save with server side baking, Joe?
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: why would os get server side when all viewers have nice GPUs to do the heavy work?
[11:55 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: It helps when entering an area with many avatars.
[11:55 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester If saving bandwidth was the objective we would not be using xml still
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no, no plans for server side avatar baking
[11:56 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Oh, OK. Did not know that.
[11:56 AM PT]  Tess JL: Yes, that makes sense. I do know that SSB makes avatars load much faster.
[11:56 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: SL now has crowds. I've seen 160 avatars in a region.
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well it does not
[11:56 AM PT]  Tess JL: I suppose it's harder to do on opensim with a distributed server network?
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: just work is done on a poll of grid side machines ( also increasing grid operation costs )
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: to have viewers doing is is distributed processing
[11:58 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Baking together over a dozen textures on a cpu takes a lot more time than you think, they are really not cut out for that sort of thing, especially server cpu's that don't have integrated gpu's to hand things off to, not that they would anyways unless specifically instructed
[11:58 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Even the latest and greatest versions of imagemagick compiled for speed take ages to build out textures from raw data
[11:59 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Just an idle thought - what if you had the baked verion uploaded from the clients? 
[12:00 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Sending a bunch of data is what OpenSim does, that's really all it does when no physics or scripts are involved, it's quite good at that, much more so than dealing with textures case in point maptiles
[12:01 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right, in SL, baking is done on separate baking servers.
[12:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Offloading workloads that are more suited to the hardware available makes sense despite all the bandwidth, which these days isn't that big of a deal anymore as it used to be ten years ago
[12:01 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Anyway, have to go to another meeting. Thanks everyyone.
[12:02 PM PT]  Tess JL: Orbert, you mean your viewer bakes your avatar and then sends it to anybody else in the vicinity?
[12:02 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Or just sends the baked version back up to the server - takes advantage of the viewer's access to a GPU, etc.
[12:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: tc, Joe.
[12:03 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Not in current prootocols or databases, so big changes,...
[12:03 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo waves
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bakes are cached using Xbakes
[12:03 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That's what it currently does, send textures to viewer, viewer bakes them, sends em back to be distributed. Now having the viewer send to the other viewers directly would be neat, but would require the viewers to actively support that and for server side to act as broker making sure they are actually talking to each other as well
[12:03 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham In a lot of cases the users have as much or more CPU available and a nice GPU also
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: by bakes i mean baked textures
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: most time there is no work on relog.. they are jsut there
[12:04 PM PT]  Tess JL: Time for me to log off too. Have a great week everybody
[12:04 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: bye Tess
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( that are also cached on regions )
[12:04 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, bye Tess.
[12:05 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Before viewers sending each other bakes though I'd love to see support for getting assets from asset server and not the region, with viewer fallback to the region in case of the dynamic textures
[12:05 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester That would be quite nice as it massively reduces the load of incoming avatars loading up a heavy region, especially in regards to textures which can be slow
[12:06 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Isn't that doubling the load on the central servers, though?
[12:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester We are effectively using the regions as CDN while they also have to do other things, offloading that to an actual CDN solely dealing with that would reduce the load on the region quite a bit
[12:07 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Now technically we have support for this already, the caps for that exist, but if switched on dynamic textures fail as the viewers don't fall back to asking the region if the asset server has no entry
[12:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Can't help but think that this would be fairly easy to implement given all the parts are there just need a if not found ask other caps line somewhere
[12:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Anyways wishful thinking, I'll shut up now
[12:09 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Serious question, for off line - how much of the region load is CDN and how much other stuff?
[12:10 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Interesting question
[12:10 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure there is an easy answer.
[12:10 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Vincent is right, I never saw it that way, but CDN is something that we have tons of well-optimized services for
[12:10 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Depends entirely on contents of the region, if it has loads of textures and mesh then offloading to asset cdn would speed it up a lot. If it is just prims then no, since those aren't assets, they are sent by the region regardless
[12:11 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Take this region for example with a lot more mesh you might see a 50% drop in bandwidth from region to viewer if it fetched that data directly from assets, this means a lot less for the region to do on teleport and the cpu spike from the teleport would be smaller and shorter
[12:13 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The one problematic thing on the asset server end is that the caps to fetch from there uses a different formatting and protocol to fetch the data which cannot be easily done and the overhead created from converting the data might add quite a bit of load there. That is unless we can find a way to rewrite the output directly in something like a reverse proxy
[12:14 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I did try this out with Alchemy a while back, but it never really went anywhere
[12:16 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not to mention that CND means all assets are public
[12:16 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you can get them with any browser
[12:17 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: only need the uuid :)
[12:17 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: remember old Moses report abotu osgrid security problem?
[12:18 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well it was just that, and sl is like that now
[12:18 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Security never been the biggest thing there anyways, lock it down properly and everyone gets mad when they can't buy stuff from kitely or other hg marketplaces
[12:19 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I mean there are ways to secure that say with a token system, but given it's all open source that's not gonna do anything anyways
[12:20 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Life is about taking risks isn't it heh
[12:20 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Heard someone talking about blockchain for that :)
[12:21 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester ...
[12:22 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: then there was the breakerOfChains..
[12:22 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: haha
[12:22 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: too funny
[12:23 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal hey everyone, sorry I missed most of the meeting
[12:23 PM PT]  Jamie.Jordan :-)
[12:24 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal I'm not seeing any chat, guessing you are all doing IMs at this point
[12:25 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Andrew got eaten by the iguana I think
[12:25 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal So I'm going to jump in since I don;t see any chat
[12:25 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Been lots of discussion in nearby chat.
[12:26 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:26 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Andrew will post the chat log later.
[12:26 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal must be something wrong then, relogging
[12:26 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: About time to wrap up for today as it is almost half past the hour.
[12:27 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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