[11:59 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[12:00 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hey, Andrew
[12:00 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Hello
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello to all the recent arrivals.
[12:03 PM PT] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody
[12:03 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: Hihi everyone.. Hihi andrew... hihih Jamie.. hihih lyr
[12:03 PM PT] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everyone
[12:04 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: heya Selby
[12:04 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Hello Motoko, Hi Selby!
[12:04 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Heya Jamie!
[12:04 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Arielle.
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi everyone
[12:04 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Let's get started.
[12:05 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Hello Arielle
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: In the master branch of OpenSim there was only one change this past week. It was related to mantis 9060 to allow https schema on oar load.
[12:05 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: Hi Lyr
[12:05 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: and everyone
[12:06 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andrew
[12:07 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The dotnet6 branch had a lot more changes.
[12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes, we should be able to load a oar directly from a web url ( not suere you will want to do that) but the code only did allow doe http protocol, not https
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It is a useful change for those getting oars using a URL with most sites going to use of https.
[12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: like before changed on dotnet6 to change to c#10 code here and there
[12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: trineg to save some cpu etc
[12:09 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Doesn't save you from malicious things either way, great way to get your stuff encrypted, probably best to only use that when you control the other end as well
[12:10 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some of those changes went a bit sideways hehe
[12:10 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: read there were potential issues with using the oar extension vs tgz?
[12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well have to fix the lsl integer and double parsing, to make it as bad as sl again
[12:10 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Where did you read that and what issues?
[12:11 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Had a mantis about it which was very useful in that regard, with good steps to reproduce
[12:11 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: mantis maybe? R\Fred in one of then issues
[12:11 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Always like to see that makes it much easier to track this stuff down in dotnet that we don't have tests
[12:11 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not that tests would have caught this, well maybe no idea
[12:12 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: More reliant on users testing with dotnet now :)
[12:13 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't programin C# much so I don't understand some of the recent changes in the dotnet6 branch.
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: your trust on our old testes is amasing vincent.Sylvester
[12:13 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: One change has a line starting -> _ =
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: one day you will notice they did miss a LOT :p
[12:13 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: also while on the oar subject, it was brought up by an irate region owner who happened to get an oar from someone with a bunch of content that when she loaded the oar, all the vontent was assigned to her as the creator
[12:14 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They caught something often enough to have their limited use, as bas as they were
[12:14 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: content^
[12:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: anyways, to update them to dotnet6 is on TODO, page "one day"
[12:14 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I been looking into that when I had some time to spare
[12:15 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: so seems the default oar save is not to list the originating creator
[12:15 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but must be used with the --home switch
[12:15 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: shouldnt the original creator be listed as default?
[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: or the creator was already missind then the oar was saved..
[12:16 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: then it would still list the region owner
[12:16 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, the issue could also stem in part from the age of the oar file and on what site it was hosted.
[12:16 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: apparently wasnt that old
[12:16 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but if the creator name isnt saved by default, the age is immaterial
[12:18 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Probably for the better given dead creator data from hypergrid already causes clogs internally when the data is requested and the other end doesn't answer, can grind http to a halt pretty much
[12:18 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Bad or dead endpoints can be really bad for performance even, things get stuck in there everything else has to wait
[12:18 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: ok by why should it have to request it if it was saved with the creator data to beging with?
[12:19 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: wouldnt it be added to the database when the oar is loaded?
[12:19 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It hasn't saved the entire profile and that's what it requests, to show the little profile picture in there and so on
[12:20 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: profiles are still sketchy anyway but the poprer name and url of the creator would be good at least
[12:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: creator data, like name and home grid url and uuid are saved when avaiable and then loaded
[12:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just a lot is pure trash, bc grids just die
[12:21 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: only if the oar is save with --home?
[12:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: or get renamed etc
[12:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: by default
[12:21 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: I believe that if you save an oar with the --publish option, it does make the land owner also the creator, etc.
[12:21 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: maybe but people do tend to use the same name if they are a creaor
[12:21 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: when they load it
[12:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: --home is not for creators
[12:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: (only )
[12:22 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Another couple of possibilities is that the person wanted the items in the public domain and so felt it didn't matter that the creator info was preserved. It could also be that they either forgot to use an option when the OAR was created or deliberately chose not to include the user info. Can only guess without knowing the site where the OAR originated.
[12:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that creatordata is saved on prims dbs also
[12:22 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: according to the wiki it is http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OpenSim_Archives
[12:23 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: If the --home option is specified then all names of creators from this world will be appended with links to their home world. It is not required that the service be operational; the information will be added and it will be available in all worlds that import this OAR.
[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and on region load/ prim rex, it is checked to try to find the user at his home grid
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that can slow down region load a bit.. but it is needed
[12:24 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: well if the creator data is already added at oar load, why not save the requesting it from online?
[12:24 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I think the important part of that is "*if* the --home option is specified".
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: bc viewers want some inofrmation about prim creators also
[12:25 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: yes Andrew whereas it seems to me it should be default if we value the actual creator
[12:25 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: does the viewer not get info from the database?
[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: "-h|--home= ??
[12:26 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: ?
[12:26 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For a user not local to the grid there is no data on the grid beyond what's in griduser table, so no profile information, it has to request it from the remote grid either way
[12:26 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: so creator data is not saved in the oar?
[12:26 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Specifically because that data can change over time and you ideally want their profile as is now, not from ten years ago
[12:27 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: like name and url?
[12:27 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: is not clear that does mean a override?
[12:27 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The uui is, the name, key and grid url
[12:27 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Same data as in griduser for that user, now if they changed the grid name or subdomain as is common with some that data is useless anyways
[12:27 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The person who created the oar might have used the --publish option.
[12:28 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but they didnt in the case i mentioned
[12:28 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: How do you know?
[12:28 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: a lot dont seem aware of the wiki
[12:29 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: because she talked about what she did. She was actually upset that all the content from the oar was assigned to her as the creator
[12:29 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The wiki is not as actively maintained, changes may not have made it there, when in doubt look at what the code says or the help pages in the console
[12:29 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was she the OAR creator?
[12:29 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: as it caused her trouble with the original creator
[12:29 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: no, she wasnt
[12:29 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: so she was relived a little when i mentioned it was the oar saver that caused the issue
[12:30 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: not sure the reason why that -home option is there at all
[12:30 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: if the OAR creator used the --publish option, that is what is going to happen, whether the creator likes it or not
[12:30 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can set that data to whatever you want in the database anyways, if you have control over the simulators database you can make it say whatever you like
[12:30 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but still comes back around to why it cannot be saved by deault
[12:30 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: yes but a lot of work Vincent, especially for normal users
[12:30 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The way I read the save oar options makes me think it is the default to include the creator info. You would need to use --publish to *not* include that information.
[12:31 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: and?
[12:31 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: That is what happened, yes?
[12:31 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: who what Orbert?
[12:31 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: The information was not included
[12:32 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: That indicates the use of the --publish option
[12:32 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Pretty much case closed
[12:32 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: or a lack of the --home option
[12:32 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: case continues
[12:32 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Orbert, I suspect so. Can't know for sure of the intentions of the oar creator without seeing the site from which the oar was obtained. One would have to read the information provided about the oar files.
[12:33 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am jus t going by the results
[12:33 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: seems the home and publish commands are contradctory then
[12:33 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, what is the name of the oar file and what site is it on?
[12:33 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: wasnt specified in the post Andrew
[12:33 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but would think others might have tested it in general?
[12:34 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: so is the wiki correct or not?
[12:34 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Did you ask?
[12:35 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: and assume the wiki is a reflection of the hlp files in the consoles?
[12:35 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: help
[12:36 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you really need to know, Arielle, the only real reference is the program code. Perhaps you could read it and then correct the Wiki?
[12:36 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: assume the way you are talking that you already do Orbert and if not, Ubit and Vincent do
[12:37 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: i'm just a user who is asking wherther the wiki is correct
[12:37 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: --home adds a user specified URL to the saved user information. The web page on OAR files doesn't make it clear if it overrides part of the creator information if one specifies a URL and not just uses --home.
[12:39 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The wiki page also doesn't specifically indicate which (if any) save options are on by default. The best guess is that the OAR was made with creator info stripped. The person who complained about the lack of creator information should talk to the person who created the oar.
[12:40 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: the wiki on --publish says:
[12:40 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: --publish
If set, then objects in the saved oar are stripped of owner and last owner information, though not of creator information.
[12:41 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: so owner and last owner
[12:41 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: not creator
[12:44 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes publish is when you just want all owners to be replaced by the new region owner on load
[12:44 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: makes sense
[12:46 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: cant the creator be added by default in such a way it doesnt poll the original grid for the updated data?
[12:46 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: it should be added by default
[12:47 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact without ANY options or core code to override it
[12:47 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, do (very?) old oar files not include creator information?
[12:47 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc it will still be a total fail..
[12:47 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: because any can edit and change oars
[12:47 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: ok but i do see a lot of content that says (loading) for Cretor Profile
[12:47 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: creator information has been a big mess
[12:48 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so yeah many may no thave it
[12:48 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and also it just just lost on same cases, because of the nature of HG
[12:49 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: HG shouldnt matter in a way if the content was loaded on a local grid
[12:49 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but ok
[12:49 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: it means it is still requesting info for the creator from another grid
[12:49 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc it matters when grids just die or change urls
[12:50 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is a dead creator impossible to retrace back
[12:50 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: well that is the nature of opensim
[12:50 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: url's change
[12:50 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That used to be more rare before a certain someone decided that it would be fine, when it really isn't
[12:50 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but in quite a few cases we still know the original creator has gone to another grid
[12:51 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: or has stores on multiple grids
[12:51 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: a user id must be unique to one grid
[12:51 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and viewers only care abotu uuids
[12:51 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The way the home option seems to be passed down into the archiver and finally to the xml serialize setting it forces the code to request all creator data from the specified url, if that user management cannot find that user it will return unknown breaking this even more
[12:52 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: By default the creator id, which is either uuid or uui is normally written to xml
[12:52 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that home option seems a override just for some odd cases
[12:52 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This seems to be some leftover for some problem that might have existed at some point
[12:52 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[12:52 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: ok so what about asking the viewer devs to allow the addition of a creator name by a text tring instead of a uuid?
[12:53 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: if you even use on a region with creators form several other grids you may even just break it all
[12:53 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i mean their creator info
[12:53 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: soem shoul dwokr fine..
[12:53 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Shut the region down and fix it in the database, that might be easier, allowing changes otherwise you open another can of worms of people doing it for other reasons
[12:54 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: like osgrd or kitely or other old and "stable" grids
[12:55 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I was thinking that too. I'm trying to recall if there was a time where OAR files didn't include creator info. If this is an old OAR in question there was no creator data to load.
[12:55 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but creator is also a thing all go override bahh
[12:56 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: back on .75
[12:56 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: and before
[12:57 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, I would suggest you have the person who made the complain talk to the person who made the oar file to find out if it was made with creator information included for not.
[12:58 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are almost at the top of the hour. Does anyone else have some questions or comments for today?
[12:58 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: it doesnt really matter Andrew. This is about the principle
[12:58 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Overall the creator data does get saved proper, looking at an oar that came from metaverselife all the creator data shows from there, that oar was just save oar no options.
[12:58 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: this region oar was made with defaults
[12:58 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and you can see some creators
[12:58 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: even from a dead grid like opensim.life
[12:59 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but Bill may have done that muanually?
[12:59 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: nopes he did not
[12:59 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: manually
[12:59 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: Bill is a stickler for everything being perfect
[12:59 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: oars by defualt do save the avaiable object information
[1:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, if the oar was made without any included creator information then there is nothing that opensim can do to credit the original creator when the oar was loaded.
[1:00 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: so if i save an oar with the --home option, the creator data will be included?
[1:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: WriteUUID(writer, "CreatorID", sop.CreatorID, options);
if (!string.IsNullOrEmpty(sop.CreatorData))
writer.WriteElementString("CreatorData", sop.CreatorData);
[1:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I remember loading oar files ages ago where everything got credited to me as the person doing the load.
[1:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Already included without that option
[1:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you add the option it goes into a different block specifically asking the specified url for the data and if that doesn't respond it becomes unknown data
[1:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So you may actually break it more
[1:01 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: Gotta head back to RL... take care everyone
[1:01 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but only successfully added if the originating grid is running Vincent?
[1:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Motoko. Thanks for dropping by
[1:02 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It just parses whatever is in the database
[1:02 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The system is pretty forgiving with bad data as is in order to make sure everything possible gets saved
[1:04 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: like this fur jacket I am wearing i picked up on a current grid shows nobody as creator
[1:04 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: same with the hair
[1:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If there is no data it doesn't write any, so if the original creator data was lost on the last owner information is available
[1:05 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but now those were picked up at a store, not a part of an oar
[1:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel guess all that stays kinda open issues.. because still far from good
[1:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: how to kepe creator ids, etc etc
[1:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and a bit more relient to simple hacks
[1:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: resilient
[1:06 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: What home basically does is "Grab all data from this point only" if that point doesn't have data it just ends up broken. By default if the string of creatordata url:name is not empty it gets written, now what that might be empty who knows
[1:07 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: hard to get creator support in opensim if their creations are going to be anonymous the moment it goes to another grid
[1:07 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Overall from my perspective I can see the creator information fine on oars just saved without any option as well
[1:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well and impossilble to prevent it form getting deleted or changed anyways
[1:08 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: besides the point
[1:08 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Possible that on grids that just go away overnight you get no return on the data requests and it just doesn't save anything there to database, but that's separate from oars entirely
[1:09 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: i like seeing the creator data because then i know who to go to if i want more of their content
[1:09 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The iar system uses a similar system to serialize the data and I can still see the creator data in my inventory from items I got from grids long gone so that data definitely makes it into the archive
[1:09 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: ok
[1:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: oops
[1:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i need go rl
[1:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: be back in 15min or so..
[1:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cya all that will leave, meanwhile
[1:10 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did want to talk about testing setups for dotnet, but I guess next meeting then
[1:10 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: time for a late lunch
[1:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh sorry vincent.Sylvester
[1:11 PM PT] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: have a great week yall
[1:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I asked whether anyone else had any other questions/comments just before the top of the hour.
[1:12 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Takes more than ten minutes to have a meaningful discussion about that :)
[1:12 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's fine
[1:13 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Next meeting, let me know that you have something you want to talk about to make sure you have enough time to discuss it.
[1:14 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything more for today?
[1:14 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: See you all later
[1:15 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Orbert.
[1:15 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That will do it for today. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[1:15 PM PT] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: bye all
