Chat log from the meeting on 2023-02-07

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[11:58 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby and Orbert
[11:58 AM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Hey, Andrew
[11:58 AM PT]  Selby.Evans hi everyone
[11:58 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: in WoW, I am often a tank
[11:59 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: cat #1 can eat in peace when she is ready as cat #2 stayed put when I went in to the kitchen.
[12:00 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, this isn't Wow. I see you as you normally are here with green outfit and wings.
[12:00 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Motoko
[12:00 PM PT]  Motoko.Karu hihi Andrew
[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The regulars for this meeting are here and it has just gone 2pm so we can start todays meeting.
[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[12:01 PM PT]  Sushant Crystal: Hello Andrew!
[12:01 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins and welcomes everyone
[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome, Sushant.
[12:01 PM PT]  Sushant Crystal: thanks :)
[12:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Regarding the code, there wasn't a lot of changes this past week. I do see that three new(?) ll functions were added. Namely, llLinkAdjustSoundVolume, and llLinkPlaySound and llLinkStopSound.
[12:04 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Changes to profiles and friends handling on dotnet6 branch, which I am testing backport to master for at the moment
[12:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Another change that was made was to the script syntax file.
[12:06 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, ok. I mostly check the master branch.
[12:06 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Ubit can probably explain best what's going on with friends and the cache, I don't quite yet understand it either :)
[12:07 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm making a copy of the source tree on my machine so I can checkout the dotnet6 branch
[12:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well as vincent and andrew told, last week code changes on master where the addition of some lsl methods
[12:09 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't realize we were still missing support for some ll functions.
[12:09 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: those are new at sl
[12:10 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: welcome, Edwin
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and are variants of older ones that allow a script on a prim to control a few things on another, using its link number
[12:10 PM PT]  Edwin Archer: thank you Lyr, sorry I am late
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we already had some ossl variants doing similar things
[12:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Edwin.
[12:11 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not exact behaviour
[12:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok.
[12:11 PM PT]  Edwin Archer: Hi Andrew, and everyone
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ours only allow to control one prim, while soem of those allow to control all
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: like do stopsound on all prims
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ie LINK_SET special link number
[12:12 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I will need to review the Profile related code changes to see if I need to copy some of that in to the OpenSimProfile module.
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: for example
[12:13 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks nods to Ubit
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in fact the recent changes to profile code where only on the reported online flag
[12:14 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: opensim suport for online detection is confusing, heavy and error prone
[12:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, in otherwords, typical coding style. ;)
[12:15 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well more that just code style..
[12:15 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: whatever
[12:16 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Too many cooks ruining the soup basically
[12:16 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i made same changes to try to improve that
[12:16 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: yes
[12:16 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester A lot of these places haven't been reviewed in years
[12:16 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: True, Vincent.
[12:16 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: still mostly only on branch dotnet6
[12:16 PM PT]  Sim Stats : This region is running, OpenSim Yeti Dev   3858cc9 (X64/Unix/DotNet) with YEngine, and ubODE Physics
[12:16 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not sure ill merge on master
[12:17 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some of the changes to need all the regions the avatr visit to be on same verion
[12:17 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I did and rolled it out for testing, see how that goes over the next couple weeks
[12:17 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I'm sure I'll hear from the residents if something blows up
[12:17 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bc some friends information does need to trvel with a avatar
[12:17 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, is the online status issues more of (or only) a problem when avatars are in different regions?
[12:18 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, sounds good.
[12:18 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on same regions did add a hack long ago showing online alwasy :P
[12:19 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: thos who did login here can test
[12:19 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: those who did log in on another region will not have all the information about online friends.. so.. it will fail still
[12:20 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It's a little improved over last week, I actually see everyone online that is on my list so at least didn't get worse
[12:20 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well last week this region was on older code .)
[12:20 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jagga. I think you popped in while I had my chat windows on the right side of my screen.
[12:21 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: part of issue is that a HG online/offline is only sent to the friend
[12:21 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that was not stored anywhere
[12:21 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: only did send the info to viewer and viewer did the store/caching
[12:22 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so a region or grid had really no information about that friend online status
[12:22 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so part of the information i told that does travel with the avatar is that, now cached
[12:23 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in theory avatars on same grid should not need that..  but fear in same cases it also needs it
[12:25 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: btw hte update of script syntax is just a consequence of adding things to lsl :p
[12:25 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is a file sent to viewers telling what LSL/OSSL methods a region has
[12:25 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, I did think of that and also verified that when I looked at the commit.
[12:26 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Another of our regulars is about to join us.
[12:27 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Misterblue.
[12:27 PM PT]  Misterblue Waves: hello all.. late as usual
[12:28 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: np.
[12:28 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: No physics related questions have come up (yet).
[12:29 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Let's see what else went on. I did more cleanup on mantis, have a handful of issues to retest still
[12:29 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That's an ongoing job.
[12:29 PM PT]  Misterblue Waves wipes brow and lets out a "whew"
[12:29 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:29 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Slowly clearing up now, more closed than being opened
[12:30 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Good to hear
[12:30 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester There are some old assigned tickets that I am not going to touch, they were self-assigned so should be handled by those people
[12:30 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: One of these days I'll try and catch up on summarizing the ChangeLog. I still have 2,000 entries to review from the mega code merge.
[12:30 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga.
[12:31 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal Hi, sorry late
[12:31 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: np, Cuga.
[12:31 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Before I open up the floor to general questions I do have one question to ask related to groups.
[12:32 PM PT]  Misterblue Waves: are people bringing up Vivox replacement audio services for OpenSIm?
[12:32 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hi MIsterblue!
[12:32 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Heya Cuga
[12:32 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I saw a mention of it this past week but nothing more than that.
[12:33 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester There is a ticket, I recently updated it even
[12:33 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, yes. That was why it came up on my radar this past week. I commented on the mantis.
[12:35 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Not sure what will happen with voice. We might have to *gasp* use FreeSwich *gasp* until another solution comes along. I hope not as FS has always been a major PITA to set up.
[12:36 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Back to groups.
[12:37 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was talking with someone this past week about groups support in OS. Seems that some of the dialog boxes seems to indicate they are waiting for a groups related response but don't get a response. What is the current status of groups V2?
[12:37 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the same status of last week
[12:37 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The person seeing the problem didn't know for sure which version of groups was being used. I suspect it was more likely it was V2 and not the phpxml based groups system.
[12:37 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:37 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:38 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: osgrid uses the xml one
[12:38 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:38 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: both are mostly in sync
[12:38 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester You mean like how it doesn't show group owned land and just says "loading"?
[12:38 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in term of features etc
[12:39 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, yes. That type of issue.
[12:39 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Yeah that's just not implemented and so the viewer just never gets data
[12:39 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what does not show group owned land?
[12:40 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester We'd have to somehow keep track of that land in a table, which would add even more data to already grossly overloaded groups design
[12:40 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I suspect there is several groups queries that are not implemented.The ideal situation would be to send something back to satisfy the query even if is nothing more than a "no data available" message.
[12:40 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you mean fore that sl only premium accounts thing?
[12:41 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Groups are also meant to hold funds, something we can't do either and external plugins have not done either
[12:41 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we never did support it
[12:41 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Not sure how you'd even implement groups holding money with HG members and such, can of worms
[12:41 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah we never did add that.. and no plans
[12:41 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, there are some accounting related functions that aren't supported.
[12:42 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The group owned land we could do keeping track of it gridside probably, but adding more to groups in its current state... doesn't seem wise
[12:42 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: If an HG user was part of a group that would really complicate things.
[12:42 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: group profile on ocasions does need a click on refersh to show members etc
[12:42 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some viewer thing..
[12:43 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I thank every day groups works properly, cause it has its moments from time to time
[12:43 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Short of a complete rewrite I'm not sure how to clean up groups. The tables are quite the mess.
[12:43 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It needs a review and rewriting of most of it, make it less of a clunky mess
[12:43 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester It does way too much data processing in code which makes it slow
[12:44 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, definitely. I often shudder when I see of the SQL queries that are used to get some of the information out of the groups tables.
[12:44 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester SELECT * like a caveman
[12:45 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester If I could find more time in a day I'd work more towards redoing that, I did start on using mongodb for its backend instead of sql
[12:45 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Those JOIN statements involving multiple tables are somewhat scary.
[12:45 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester The get routine needs to be much simplified to be basically instant, which it could be if the data didn't need tons of processing
[12:46 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, the problem with a rewrite is it would still need to be done in a way that allows continued use of SQL to be compatible with users/grids still running MySQL/MariaDB or PostgresQL.
[12:46 PM PT]  Sim Stats : This region is running, OpenSim Yeti Dev   3858cc9 (X64/Unix/DotNet) with YEngine, and ubODE Physics
[12:47 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Since the connectors are ancient too I have thrown those out too, starting almost completely from scratch on that trying to bring it forward
[12:47 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks thinks its been a while since he's seen the shouting of Sim Stats.
[12:47 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Course means this will take months to figure out
[12:48 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, connectors was the other big issue.
[12:49 PM PT]  Misterblue Waves: I've used MongoDB on other projects and it works (fast and easy to use) but the problem was that people usually don't have it. People either have or know how to set up SQL and know the commands needed. MongoDB is a totally new fish.
[12:49 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, True. I have certainly heard of it but I don't know anything about using it.
[12:50 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal It seems messy to require both mySQL and Mongo
[12:50 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester From what I gather you can still use similar syntax to sql for dealing with data, getting the document and then changing values of keys and such, making new nodes in the documents much like xml
[12:50 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: a non-relational database
[12:50 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: document oriented
[12:51 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, there are already three supported DB engines and Mongo would be a fourth if added.
[12:51 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester mongodb does "get me this document" which can be already formatted to what the viewer needs for groups and other data structures not requiring C# to do all manners of conversions just to output data. mysql is great for large things like useraccounts and such that you need to interface with externally more often
[12:51 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Mixing that stuff is not all that common sure, but it does happen
[12:52 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Most "modern" software becoming bloatware with ten containers just running parts of it, think we are still far from that
[12:52 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we do not want to keep the model of storing only "what viewer wants"
[12:52 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: It does sound like Mongo would be a better way to handle groups.
[12:52 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in fact that is a nonsense
[12:53 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we kinda do that, but jsut bc viewers and mostly the same
[12:53 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and we do that still with a very scary absence of any validation
[12:53 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: something i did add on same paths
[12:54 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Well I am not going to just stuff xml into it, but point being, instead of fetching select * on 5 tables and then building large arrays of things taking up 10 seconds instead fetching just a document for the group and grabbing the required data nodes for the request
[12:54 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and needs to be there on EVERYTHING
[12:54 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal So Mongo would be used as a single DB option for all of OS, but would be required if using V2 groups?
[12:54 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so yes regions will need to undecode all viewer assets, etc and VALIDATE it
[12:55 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester I am working on a combo connector that uses both mysql and mongodb for the parts that I think can benefit the most from either of those systems
[12:55 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester We do almost no input validation currently
[12:55 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Not even on things that known to cause issues like inventory
[12:55 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester Course more validation is also slower and you generally have contact to viewers to tell them to stop messing stuff up
[12:56 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well remember when all permissions where only viewer side?
[12:56 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:56 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Can you say robocopy?
[12:56 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: most goal of opensim was just to make something to seem to work..
[12:56 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks doesn't remember that far back which is probably a good thing.
[12:56 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins
[12:56 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: how it did it..  did not matter..  jsut.. minor details :P
[12:56 PM PT]  Misterblue Waves: griefing was amazing in those days, UBit :-O
[12:57 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo remembers...
[12:57 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well not all a few thigns did had ..hmm thinks
[12:57 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: things
[12:57 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we jsut need to improve
[12:57 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and to start is NOT think as vicent did :p
[12:58 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The one thing I still remember from earlier days is how walking on a prim larger than 10x10 acted like a trampoline.
[12:58 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we need to store OPENSIM data..
[12:58 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that may be like viewers one..  but validated etc
[1:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc it is a pain.. takes a lot of time.. uses more cpu...
[1:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so .. who cares.. :P
[1:00 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The hour has gone by quickly today. Before we wrap up todays gathering does anyone have any other questions/comments?
[1:00 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Do we have a set of "groups" functions that we know we want, and a set we can return NOPs for?
[1:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: The basics are what groups exist, who owns them, who is in them.
[1:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok.. rl calls me.. see you all here and there :)
[1:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Role information and management.
[1:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: have fun
[1:01 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: take care
[1:01 PM PT]  Motoko.Karu bye ubit
[1:01 PM PT]  Orbert.Tatham Peace, Ubit
[1:01 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: and thanks!
[1:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit. See you next week.
[1:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: No additional questions or comments for today?
[1:02 PM PT]  Selby.Evans Bye all
[1:02 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: No, and thank you *smiles* bye Selby
[1:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, bye Selby.
[1:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Lyr.
[1:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see anyone else typing so I will call this meeting to a close.
[1:03 PM PT]  Jagga Meredith: finished my bowling alley  it's outside
[1:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[1:03 PM PT]  Jamie.Jordan Thanks everybody
[1:03 PM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Great, Jagga!
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