Chat log from the meeting on 2022-02-08

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[11:02] Gavin.Hird Hi Andrew, Kayaker
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02] Misterblue Waves: hello all!
[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Hello all!
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Misterblue
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: Misterblue! Long time no see! Glad to see you here!
[11:04] Misterblue Waves: been re-visiting my previous projects and stomping grounds :)
[11:04] Jamie.Jordan Mr Blue welcome my friend
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:05] Gavin.Hird Evening Ubit
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Speaking of previous projects, I heard a rumor that the licensing for Unity has changed and it might be viable now for a continuation of Melane's new viewer project.
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: we never did that in unity
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: What engine did she use? I thought it was unity.
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: unreal
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: then a bit restart in xenko,  now stride
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Stride?
[11:08] Motoko.Karu
[11:08] Motoko.Karu
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: yeah think it is its name now
[11:08] Motoko.Karu sorry.. lag
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: yeah that, thanks
[11:08] Motoko.Karu np
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, that is what used to be called Xenko.
[11:09] Misterblue Waves: I've started working on my viewer again. First version is browser based but the next is whatever is right (unreal, godot, stride, ...)
[11:09] Vincent.Sylvester We really need a good text viewer, one that gets some more regular updates and actually works
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: radagast does not work?
[11:10] Vincent.Sylvester It does, unless you password is too long
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:10] Misterblue Waves: what functions do you need in a text viewer, @Vincent? just chat?
[11:10] Vincent.Sylvester Chat, maybe some estate and parcel controls, that's about it
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: guess inventory also
[11:11] Vincent.Sylvester You know administrative stuff you can't do via console
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Does radgast work on cellphones? I used Lumiya as a text viewer on my phone until it was abandoned. Doesn't work on my new phone.
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: to check notecards
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: think some still use lumiya
[11:12] Vincent.Sylvester I still have it working on my phone
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder if anyone has thought about using the rendering engine used in Blender.
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: at least i did a fix for it.. well like 2years ago now :)
[11:12] Vincent.Sylvester But it doesn't do vars
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: Lumiya still works on my 6 year old tablet.
[11:12] Vincent.Sylvester unlocked bootloader lineage os ftw lol
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: it does not decode all llsd xml right
[11:12] Gavin.Hird I suppose if you don't wnat your rezzed avatar to look like a brick, you'll need more or less full inventory access
[11:12] Vincent.Sylvester hehe true
[11:12] Gavin.Hird afaik you can't just log in a light weight text client
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: like <integer /> i remember
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: i had to take that out
[11:13] Vincent.Sylvester I like to set passwords starting at 20 chars upward of 64, radegast and I think lumiya barf at anything above 16 or so
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: most ppl want, is actualy chat with others
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: be intouch with friends..
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: the 3d around is just decoration, most the time
[11:14] Misterblue Waves: it would also be good for meetings like this. We really aren't using the 3D world features of this place
[11:15] Gavin.Hird then you can just make a meeting in any chat platform
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: 21W on my cpu where it could be 5
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: ;(
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: guess more on the gpu
[11:15] Misterblue Waves: I'm building a whole new protocol. Someday I will have to fight with UBit about getting a new ClientView added to the base :)
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: my tool does not show gpu power estimation :(
[11:16] Vincent.Sylvester If it makes sense I'm sure he'll add it, just gotta persistent, that's how I get things through ;)
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: well to add clients was the idea
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: now.. a bit hard since sl things everywhere
[11:17] Misterblue Waves: SL is wandering off in their own direction, and, with new consultants (<wink/>) they might change things alot
[11:17] Gavin.Hird ha!
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: voice comes to mind
[11:17] Gavin.Hird I saw Meta will add a safe space around all avatars
[11:18] Vincent.Sylvester SL is, as usual, just spiraling around the toilet bowl lately
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: Meta? Isnt that company dieing soon?
[11:18] Motoko.Karu lol.. have to remember that one.. <the toilet bowl comment>
[11:18] Misterblue Waves: yes, HiFi had that in their first version. Meta is learning all the things SL had to learn. They are starting from scratch
[11:18] Vincent.Sylvester Anyone else getting basically flooded with "metaverse" related emails lately?
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: think meta is a bit more ahead sl
[11:19] Misterblue Waves: either "metaverse" or "crypto". There is a lot of pump-and-dump going on
[11:19] Gavin.Hird One would hope so, but the rumor if its death is so far exaggerated
[11:19] Gavin.Hird of its*
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: looking to others thinks, like sansar, space, etc
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: and many other things around in the things that can sell oculus
[11:20] Misterblue Waves: anyone work with an LOD system?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: a big drive he has i guess.. sell oculus things :P
[11:20] Misterblue Waves: I wonder how it is usually implemented
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: lod as level of detail ?
[11:21] Misterblue Waves: yes
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: that is a bit a viewer side thing
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: well and mesh makers
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: The adds for Unreal5 claim that their engine takes care of LOD for you.
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: yeah they do
[11:22] Misterblue Waves: I'm working on converting OS content to GLTF and then auto LODing it into lower rez region segments
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: and on huge mesh also
[11:22] Vincent.Sylvester Bounding box distance to camera or maybe even object center, then er... oh what was it 30 meters for first level then 90 and finally 256 something like that
[11:22] Misterblue Waves: There is a lot of decimation tech out there so I thought I'd just use it
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: fs shows the transition points per mesh now
[11:23] Vincent.Sylvester Subdivision is a subd9 or whatever that is called library, what blender used to use like 5 years ago
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: well viewers auto lod is not that great
[11:24] Gavin.Hird the anicnet GLOD library will be replaced in the viewers soon
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: and just blind decimation may not do it
[11:24] Misterblue Waves: some of  the geographic viewers have world defintion files (like Cesium's 3D Tiles (
[11:24] Gavin.Hird cant recall the name of it at the top of my head
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: yeah they talk about that
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Here is a demo showing UE5 doing LOD for you:
[11:24] Vincent.Sylvester I looked at that code just two weeks ago too already forgot, I'm getting old lol
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: i did some crude/basic lod for the unreal viewer
[11:26] Misterblue Waves: there was the old Sirkata project that implemented automatic LOD
[11:26] Vincent.Sylvester Object size is also part of calculations on the viewer end when it starts switching to different levels presumably based on reducing polygons in the scene, there was something in there about the bounding box playing a role in calculations
[11:26] Vincent.Sylvester Percentage of screen real estate
[11:27] Misterblue Waves: and then, renderers like Unreal have amazing auto-LOD tech built in
[11:27] Vincent.Sylvester Which is all for naught anyways in a lot of cases because people still upload with same LOD for all levels
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: yeah nanite seems nice
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: ( nanite is the unreal lod thing )
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: so what news do you have?
[11:31] Vincent.Sylvester The recent changes to the inventory flags stuff nuked a bit of inventory for people, evidently HG transfer without export perms happened quite a bit, so that was fun
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: what change to inv flags?
[11:32] Misterblue Waves: I updated my opensim-docker project (
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: ty misterblue
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: i don't remember change to inv flags
[11:33] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, was that something you did Vincent?
[11:33] Vincent.Sylvester The stuff about the export perms from that one mantis, after that folks started complaining about missing inventory, still not exactly sure how that is related either
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: do remember to allow landmarks exports when others are bloked
[11:34] Vincent.Sylvester I only know that I did not find the items in assets so they must not have transferred yet were in user inventory... not sure how that's possible, my best guess is cache
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: nahh don't thing code changed anything, but fix the issue at hand and let landmarks always pass
[11:34] Vincent.Sylvester Upgrading binary removing the cache, fireworks
[11:34] Vincent.Sylvester But that's the nature of bug fixes, you win some you lose some
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: and those code changes here relevant only when a option to not export is set to true
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: where
[11:36] Vincent.Sylvester I think that is part of the problem something not obeying "no export", but eh that's just how it is now
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: (OutboundPermission option )
[11:36] Vincent.Sylvester Other changes were mostly cosmetics refactoring code and something about ARM chip support
[11:37] Vincent.Sylvester Some fix to estate also
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: yes we got contribution on changes to makefiles to allow build of some unmanaged libs for aarch64
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: inlcuding already compiled ones
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: for bullet and openjeg
[11:39] Misterblue Waves: now that Raspian is available in 64 bit, I can have all my old RaspPi's running simulators LOL
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: yeah this are for the 64 rasp i think
[11:39] Gavin.Hird except there is no mono 64-bit for Raspian that can compile opensim
[11:39] Gavin.Hird MS has siad there never will be one
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well guess that person has it running somehow
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: in fact not idea what is MS word on mono things
[11:41] Gavin.Hird they have said it will not be updated
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: what they say it totally unreliable
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: is
[11:41] Kayaker Magic: Dang, 64bit Raspian was my next question. Will MicroSquishy do a 64bit DotNet for ARM?
[11:42] Gavin.Hird .Net5
[11:42] Gavin.Hird yes
[11:42] Gavin.Hird already exist as far as I know
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: the way ms now is trying to kill mono future is in fact irritating
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: Mike Chase has OpenSim running on DotNet, but only on WinCows servers.
[11:42] Gavin.Hird MS use it in Visual Studio for macOS running on Apple Silicon
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: not sure he has..
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: he was working on it, i guess
[11:43] Vincent.Sylvester You cannot develop anything past 4.8 because the documentation is, excuse my french, horseshit. With .net core and standard and that crap it became a total mess to build anything let alone platform independent
[11:43] Vincent.Sylvester MS is killing .net as they usually do with all things eventually
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: ms killed core and standard now
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: everything they told about that was sent to trash
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: since :net5 and 6 unify it all ( they claim )
[11:45] Vincent.Sylvester You go to the docs to find a function for something, turns out that doesn't work, stackoverflow then says to use something else, but that is only available in old .net and back you are at MS docs trying to figure for what exactly the thing is now, total mess
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: well any rush to move to dotnet is still a waste of time
[11:46] Misterblue Waves: Need to refactor some of the base libraries (PrimMesher, libOpenSim, ...) and move a bunch of code around in OS. I've been  thinking of pushing a version of OS to .Net6/Standard2 but it's a bunch of work
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: the way they still keep changing
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, sounds like the typical disparity between the docs and code.
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile ppl do things to easy the porting
[11:47] Misterblue Waves: Prebuild needs some work to handle the new .csproj file formats
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: yeah it does
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: some that used it, just gave up and only use direct slns and csproj
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: like cinder radagash ?
[11:48] Misterblue Waves: I would like to be able to have a prebuild.xml that says "Standard 2.0" and have the right stuff built
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: uff need to change it to the new file formats
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: and options
[11:49] Misterblue Waves: Cinder did a lot of good work in that direction. She had a standard2 version of primmesher and libreOMV up on the NuGet repository at one time
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: wlel its suport for vs2017 was kind of ahack already :)
[11:49] Misterblue Waves: haven't checked in a while
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: yeha think she did replace image code, but a crap slower lib they recomend now
[11:50] Misterblue Waves: not sure OS core is up to NuGet unless we hosted our own repository (so we weren't loading possibly random things)
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: nuget is uselss :p
[11:50] Vincent.Sylvester Amen
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: and yeah does polute our machines
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: loading crap to a folder somewhere
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Isn't that something used when building Android apps?
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:51] Vincent.Sylvester nuget the nodejs of the C world
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, no. I think that was Glade.
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: packages handler
[11:52] Misterblue Waves: I'l looked at libOMV a bit but it needs a bunch of refactoring to make it a set of libraries since functions are co-mingled with usage code so one can't easily separate functions
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: xenko at a point wnet all nuget
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: and from a few library files it went to 300 nuget packages
[11:53] Misterblue Waves: OS doesn't use NuGet. It just drops DLLs into the bin directory. Raw DLLs that are built from libraries we control
[11:53] Misterblue Waves: OS could use NuGet if we used our own repositories and controled the binaries. That what we do with PrimMesher, etc now
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: yeah the older cleaner and controlable way
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: and what the point MB ?
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: just to look modern and fancy on kids eyes? :)
[11:54] Vincent.Sylvester It was not that long ago when there was a issue in libomv with some locking or timing, not having control of that would have been a huge pain
[11:55] Vincent.Sylvester I don't even remember what that was specifically, but we had to decompile the finished library to fix it cause something was being "optimized"
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: no idea. but you do get strange issues vicent :p
[11:56] Vincent.Sylvester Probably why I don't win the lottery huh lol
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: dhehe
[11:57] Kayaker Magic: I don;t in the lottery because I don't buy tickets. Buying a ticket does not increase the probablility of winning by much....
[11:57] Misterblue Waves: despite the get-off-my-lawn vibe, I use libraries in multiple places (PrimMesher, Meshmerizer, AssetLoader). It would be nice to access Robust from other world asset tools (Blender plugin?)
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Just under five minutes to go in the hour. Any other OS related topics for today?
[11:57] Jagga Meredith: Whatever my MariaDB issue was, it hasn't reoccured.
[11:57] Misterblue Waves: I like things broken up into easily loadable pieces
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, that's good to hear. Hope it stays that way.
[11:58] Jagga Meredith: *notes* increating from 0 to 1 is a 100% increase in odds
[11:58] Jagga Meredith: s/increating/incrementing/
[11:58] Gavin.Hird nah, I'm working on plan B, and it is building and running in SL
[11:59] Misterblue Waves: I have been using MariaDB with no problems. That's what I encorporated in opensim-docker (running two containers with one being the stock MariaDB image)
[12:00] Jagga Meredith: I don't like things that break and magically fix themselves.
[12:00] Vincent.Sylvester Remains to be seen where they are headed and whether creating a specific mariadb connector next to the standard mysql one would benefit performance
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Neither do I, Jagga.
[12:00] Jagga Meredith: sticking with MriaDB regardless
[12:00] Vincent.Sylvester I still think changing groups uuid mess from varchar bytes to actual uuid might help with query sizes and thus performance, but I have had no time to get into that
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: in some cases issue is why SQL at all
[12:01] Misterblue Waves: @Vincent, true. MySQL is going enterprise and it's hard  to configure and control
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: other forks moved to other types of dbs with some sucess it seems
[12:02] Misterblue Waves: @UBit, just use the filesystem?
[12:02] Gavin.Hird some success
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: no   other things ( that endup doing that ) :)
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: like (key value) only things
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: most our regions db is insave
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: insane
[12:03] Misterblue Waves: DB's are best if one is making selection queries. Simple key=>value lookup can be done easily
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: those prim tables  filled with columns we never use
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: ie never access independently
[12:03] Gavin.Hird padding
[12:04] Misterblue Waves: we'd need a different DB if we needed complex queries (select all objects that have a resolution greater than .5 and are more than 50 meters away)
[12:04] Jagga Meredith: apparently dbase is still out there.  I miss dbase.
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: thing is that we have no complex queries on most things
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I used to use that too, Jagga.
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: we save and read a prim only as a unit block
[12:05] Kayaker Magic: The most complex queries I ever use in OpenSim is for admin tasks from a PHP WEB page....
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: so it is actualy a (key, value) thing in pratical terms
[12:05] Misterblue Waves: Robust has a filesystem store, right?
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: with value a serielized info
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: only fsassets i think
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: and direct file is not that cool
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: dbs try and to optimize disk access
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: and do..
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: in fact some demand own filesystem
[12:07] Gavin.Hird at some time the filesystem becomes unpossible to back up and restore
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: well the new viewer cache  for examle
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: was a step back
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: old cache was better
[12:08] Misterblue Waves: I've found some OS's that don't do very well with accessing random files in multiple level directories. Thrash, thrash, thrash
[12:08] Jagga Meredith: ORACLE used to want its own multiple raw filesystems
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: yes operating systems filesystems are not that good for DB work
[12:09] Jagga Meredith: granted, I had a pet stegosaurus at he time
[12:09] Kayaker Magic: I've seen some very poor performance from the mysql that comes with that DreamGrid system, what mysql is that running on WinCows?
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: hte usual  generic/specialize things
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: apache
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: oops
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: mysql
[12:10] Gavin.Hird mysql generally runs like shit, untuned it is even worse
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: but ofc in several areas our code makes any db just 2 slow
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: well and even workse on sqlite
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: one day should rewrite all that trash
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:13] Gavin.Hird fix the postgres code, sunset mysql and you will get a much more performant system
[12:14] Misterblue Waves: what's the feeling of the Task system for .NET? Should we retire SmartThreads and move to a Task scheduler?
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: think smart is still a lot better than native threapool
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: that is currently leaking threads on mono
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: and still has starvation issues
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: the asnwers to those issues is "you application is bad.. should not request so many threads so fast)
[12:17] Selby.Evans Bye All
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: only good application for ms guys is one that does nothing, so no bugs :)
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: cya selby.Evans
[12:18] Misterblue Waves: bye Selby
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: but those where they answers to thread starvation issues..
[12:18] Misterblue Waves: not fast enough :)
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: wem but its doing better on windows
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: just smart allows also for several independent pools
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: etc
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: ohh and fun fun
[12:20] Jamie.Jordan gret meeting thanks yall
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: the main threadpool  is made of a global FIFO one and one per thread that are LIFO
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: time coerence means NOTHING to them
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Jamie. tc. See you next week.
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: ( and the LILO and per thread, can't ever work well, and prevent pseudo starvation )
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: but well it is what it is
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: irritating that mono will get no fix
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: well the leak i see seems to have small impact on memory
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: but  duhh
[12:23] Misterblue Waves: the Task system allows adding custom schedules and multiple scheduling pools. It's the official wrapper around threads :)
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: taks is a stupidity
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: it converts all code into a complex and heavy static stage machine
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: a lot slower and with more leaks that other methofs
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: ahh and more prone to starvation, because is actually uses more threads
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: i used task async/await on the http server
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: BAD
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: moved back to EPA model
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: or how it is called
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: We are almost half past the hour mark now. Time to wrap it up for today if there are no final comments for today.
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see anyone typing so I will call this gathering to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:28] Motoko.Karu Thank you.
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: Task only allow somewhat easier to reado  very low performance code
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: ofc ms tells it the best since .net 4.0 where they introduced it :)
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