Chat log from the meeting on 2021-07-20

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[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02] Gavin.Hird Hi Andrew and Kayaker
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: and since portugal as almost no usefull content, 500/100 is a lost a pure publicity waste
[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Hello Gavin and Andrew and Ubit
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: but well nothing new, had always been like that
[11:02] Gavin.Hird no useful content? :-O
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: ofc not
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: just sutpid gov sites
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hi, Kayaker.
[11:03] Gavin.Hird sounds like you have some work cut out in front of you there Ubit
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: what?
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: And a big hello to everyone who comes in after I say Hello!
[11:03] Gavin.Hird create great content for Portugal
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: hi  :)
[11:04] Gavin.Hird Hi Jamie and Bill
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: by definition content in portugal is never great
[11:04] Gavin.Hird isn't that a bit pesimistic?
[11:04] Kayaker Magic: Hello Jamie
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: if gets closer to that, someelse copies it and takes the credits
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jamie
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: just historic fact gavin.Hird
[11:05] Jamie.Jordan Hi everybody
[11:05] Gavin.Hird at least you re-discovered America (a few hundred years afrer us)
[11:05] Gavin.Hird after*
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: when a country major export is stupid beach .. weall
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: well didn't spain did :p
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Hehe. A few THOUSAND years after the Beringians fourn it
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: columb was just a mercenary
[11:06] Gavin.Hird ok
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: tried to sell his thing to us, we refused, he went sell it to spain
[11:06] Gavin.Hird beach bums - sounds like a good export article
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: and rember the moron was trying to go to india..
[11:07] Gavin.Hird he did not know better
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: america just happened to be on his way
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: all did
[11:07] Gavin.Hird not sure what the vikings tried to discover
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: On to OpenSim: Did you see my mantis 8914 and the video demonstrating it:   ???
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: a old greak had already measured earth radius
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: he guy was just ignorant
[11:07] Gavin.Hird they just ran into it
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: that is why portugla did refuse his idea
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: but well america was there on his path :)
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: he actually did not reach america.. he did reack a island :)
[11:08] Gavin.Hird yes Kayaker. I said to Ubit you should be glad the plane caught up with you. In RL you would have crashed to the ground strapped to your set with the seatbelt
[11:09] Gavin.Hird seat*
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: yeah fun plane
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: i also shown Beq
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: ofc she says it is opensim
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: i think it is viewers
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: animesh is a hack
[11:09] Gavin.Hird probalby a combination
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: can't see how region can do that
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: specially that came for far and join the linkset
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: region just does not do such thing
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, it turned in to Wonder Womans invisible plane. ;)
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: that sounds like the animation engine updating the positions
[11:11] Gavin.Hird could be
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: I could try it in SL, but it would co$st a lot to upload, and there is no region large enough to turn around in...
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: but as i said on mantis.. some testing is needed
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: yeah test at sl would mk clear if viewer issue or not
[11:12] Gavin.Hird what turn radius do you need?
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: Oh, if I go slow enought it could turn around in a 1x1.
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: Oh, the strange sound (CACHING) was flying into a region that did Gloebits.
[11:13] Gavin.Hird Blake Sea sailing regions are pretty empty
[11:13] Gavin.Hird so you could try there
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: wb, Bill
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: I heard a rumor that LL is breaking up the Blake Sea so they can use Kitely-style regions on demand.
[11:14] Gavin.Hird Maybe Gloebit tought it was an avatar and tried to paster it to join a group
[11:15] Gavin.Hird Isn't that what they want to do anyway?
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: It does happen on non-Gloebit regions, I just happened to record that crossing.
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: yes sl plans to use regions on demand since ever
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: that makes a lot of sence
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: most regions are just empty 99% of the time
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: But without the Blake Sea, SL sailors will have no choice but to come to OpenSim!
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: the airplane mesh is large kay?
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: guess you just need to fly around to force regions to load
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: The airplane is a single prim animesh, pretty low poly, with 6 seat prims.
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: then guess they will stay while someone does see them
[11:17] Gavin.Hird so why would it cost so much to upload to SL then?
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: i meant its mesh part ofc
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: well it is the mesh and the animations iploads
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: Just difficult to think about paying to upload...
[11:18] Gavin.Hird I think animeshes are capped at 32k tris in SL
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: no idea why.... is is a service, should be payed
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: 100k maybe?
[11:19] Gavin.Hird what 100k?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: tris
[11:20] Gavin.Hird oh
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: 100k tris
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: beq also did mention that
[11:20] Gavin.Hird any mesh over 64k tris are split in parts by the viewer on upload
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: but the thing works fine untll cross
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Checking: the plane is 23K verticies, 38K tris. I got the mesh from a crazy Frenchman, I could pare it down easily by a few thousand.
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that the limit in OS? Last time I read about the triangle limits it is was less than 64k.
[11:21] Gavin.Hird so if the animesh is larger than that the viewer will have to reassemble the parts on region crossing
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: that is not low poly :P
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, that mesh shouldn't be a problem.
[11:21] Gavin.Hird agreed Andrew
[11:22] Gavin.Hird but you may not be able to set it as an animesh once uploaded to SL
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: I could try reproducing the problem on a smaller mesh in OpenSim first...
[11:23] Gavin.Hird yes
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: "
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: Currently an animesh object can have at most 100,000 triangles in its most detailed LOD. This 100,000 limit is based on estimated triangle count, so the actual number of triangles can often be a bit higher. Attached animesh objects, like other attachments, do not count against land impact.Jan 20, 2021
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: "
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: ahh the airplane is a vehicle or a attachment?
[11:25] Gavin.Hird the SL wiki says something about position and scale constraints
[11:25] Kayaker Magic: vehicle you sit on
[11:25] Gavin.Hird constraints are based on real.time bounding box maintained for rigged meshes
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, snakedance.
[11:26] Gavin.Hird so they may be triggered at some times and not others depending on the animations being played
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: hi snake :)
[11:26] snakedance moonwing: ~** HELLO!! **~
[11:26] Gavin.Hird Hi snake
[11:26] snakedance moonwing: my last dev meeting :(
[11:26] snakedance moonwing: ~** HELLO!! **~
[11:26] Jamie.Jordan Hi :-)
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: ?Why your last?
[11:27] snakedance moonwing: leaving osgrid and opensim in 2 days
[11:27] Gavin.Hird For performance reasons the box does not update every frame
[11:27] snakedance moonwing: continue iw ill sit and listen :)
[11:28] Gavin.Hird so it might have something to do with the bounding box
[11:28] snakedance moonwing: thank you gentlemen for all ur work over the years on opensim and osg :)
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: ( snake one issue we discussed [11:07:38] Kayaker Magic: On to OpenSim: Did you see my mantis 8914 and the video demonstrating it:   ??? )
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: yeha i think that is a viewer side thing
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: also no idea why the sound makes that ugly noise
[11:30] Gavin.Hird he recommended practice for now is to have a root prim that’s not a rigged mesh, and associate any physics representation with that root prim. The rigged meshes would then be non-physical children of this root.
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: unless kay did record something
[11:30] Gavin.Hird Also note that like rigged meshes on avatars, the rigged meshes in animesh objects are non-physical. The animation process only affects how things display on the viewer, so if you want to have a physics shape that lines up with your animesh object, you will need to manage the positioning and animations accordingly.
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: It sounded like he flew in to a region that had (a different) currency.
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: i guess the airplane is like that
[11:30] Gavin.Hird
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: or would had blownup
[11:30] Kayaker Magic: The sound was a local thing, the problem happens in OSGrid without the sound.
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: yes but sound should not do that also
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: but other issue
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: well a fix
[11:31] snakedance moonwing: ya'll adorable talking ur techie dev talkishness :)
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: use a larger region and never cross :P
[11:32] Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:32] Gavin.Hird infinite region
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: crossings are the only reason we have vars
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: and megas before them
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: simulation issues ( like precision etc) does point to 256m
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: also load distribution
[11:33] Gavin.Hird from reading the wiki, it does not exactly sound as if a plane is the design targt for an animesh
[11:33] Gavin.Hird target*
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: on a large area simulation like sl mainland
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: animesh is a hack :)
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: Agreed
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: to have something closer to our NPCs
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: wel and can be small attachments
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: It has advantages over NPCs: Anyone can run an animesh without OSSL permissions.
[11:34] Gavin.Hird like a lap dog
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: 1 on a normal avatar, 2 of a payed premium
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: btw they gave up premium plus ?
[11:35] Gavin.Hird so what's with leaving opensim snake?
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: ofc doing that does not have much effect.. everyone thinks there is a alt already ready to be uses
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: used :p
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: but details
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: more opensim issues?
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: err code changes last week
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: let me see if any
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: There were a few code changes made this past week.
[11:38] Gavin.Hird enabling NPC bu default
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: yeah that was one
[11:38] Kayaker Magic: Oh! I saw you "fixed" the stop an animation by name without inventory!
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: ann limit the max number of NPCs
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: and do not count NPCs for region number of agents limit
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: Yes also the llStopObjectAnimation no longer looks to inventory
[11:39] Gavin.Hird was that a hard limit?
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: there was no limit
[11:40] Gavin.Hird the limit you added
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: conf in ini fiie
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: default 40
[11:40] Gavin.Hird ok
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: also made a little change on getassets cap
[11:41] Gavin.Hird so we can fill a region with NPCs for perf testing
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: like udp did, it tries to detect requests at "the same time"  and only does one to outside
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: then giving the asset to all that did request on that "at same time"
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: that can happen when somone arrives or rez something
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: and all the other viewers request for the same textures etc
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: but a stats thing..
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: most time does nothing than add a bit more latency of its workings :p
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: ok guess those where last week code changes
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: we are here alive on them.. so guess they work
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:45] Gavin.Hird they worked on my test regions too
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:46] Gavin.Hird with my viewer...
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: btw for those visiting osgrid it is celebrating its birthdat, things going on all days of this week
[11:47] Gavin.Hird speaking of which: there was a new version published a couple days back
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: When I first tried to login today I thought this region had broken as it said it wasn't available and tossed me over to a plaza.
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: birthday..
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: possilbr Bill pulling the wrong cables
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, thanks for mentioning that. I usually wind up missing it.
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:48] Bill Blight: I'm going to blame Ubit's cats
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: well they do things yes :p
[11:49] Kayaker Magic: LOL
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Bill
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: What would we do without cats to blame for some of our troubles?  ;)
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: blame ex-wifes
[11:51] Gavin.Hird blame climate change
[11:51] Gavin.Hird most things can be blamed on that
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: climate change is bc ex-wifes
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks nods to Gavin
[11:51] Bill Blight: I have two ex-wives maybe I will split the blame between them ..
[11:51] Gavin.Hird see?
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: ohh ok ex-wives also
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't have a wife, ex, or otherwise to blame anything on.
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: I do have a cat. :)
[11:52] Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: can blame yr friends ex-wives..
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just a few minutes before the top of the hour. Any other last minute OpenSim items for today?
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: oops this ex-wives is on log.. ex-wifes also
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: but well facts of life
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:53] Gavin.Hird LL is testing am mesh optimizer to add to the viewer
[11:54] Gavin.Hird I wonder how many meshes that will trash
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: they to it already and do trash meshes
[11:54] Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:54] Gavin.Hird this is more trashing
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I tried to upload a small (500 tris) mesh to Kitely and it complained about some triangles (too small?). It was odd as I've uploaded the mesh to a different grid running OS before.
[11:55] Gavin.Hird maybe they found storing meshes in the cloud is costing them an arm and a leg
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: ahh beq does mention the sl test grid kay
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: [11:29:04] Beq Janus: do it in Aditi
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: [11:30:14] Beq Janus: what he just said about region size
[11:30:22] Beq Janus: does the bug only happen on var regions?
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: ohh good question..
[11:56] Gavin.Hird if you enlarge it on upload Andrew, it probalby will laod and you can resize it down in-world after
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: did chack that kay?
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that's an idea. I didn't have to do that before. The item isn't small as it is something you can sit inside.
[11:57] Gavin.Hird could be hidden geometry somewhere
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I think the problem may be when trying to use the mesh for physics. I haven't made a simplified mesh for use with physics yet. Just haven't had the time.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: most engines do have mesh optimizers now
[11:57] Kayaker Magic: I have some 1x1s here, I will try it there.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: they are a must
[11:58] Kayaker Magic: This airplane has it's own physics model.
[11:58] Gavin.Hird yeah, well, this one was in version 0.16 by the dev
[11:58] Gavin.Hird does not sound too good
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: think unreal made a large pub of their new thing
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: how it just optimizes all mesh etc
[11:59] Gavin.Hird most likey tested better than some random code you found on github
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: or was it unity ?? lol
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: think unreal 5 ?
[12:02] Jamie.Jordan it was unreal
[12:02] Jamie.Jordan 5
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: "
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: Nanite is Unreal Engine 5's new virtualized geometry system which uses a new internal mesh format and rendering technology to render pixel scale detail and high object counts. It intelligently does work on only the detail that can be perceived and no more.
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: "
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: that thing i think
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Last chance for any last minute items for today.
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: that matters even to professional 3d people
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Isn't that what most renderers do? Ignore the detail you can't see?
[12:04] Gavin.Hird that sounds like rendering the already uploaded mesh
[12:04] Gavin.Hird the LL code is optimizing when uploading the mesh first time
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: engines do it on game cooking
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: ie preparing
[12:05] Gavin.Hird at compile time
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: or that :)
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: guess this nanite is also at run time
[12:06] Kayaker Magic: I had some trouble with the optimization: If my ailerons are too close to the wings, some of the vertexes were merged and the wings bent with the ailerons. This did not happen in Blender, only in-world.
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: wlel GPUs do mesh tesselation on the fly now
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: and fake increased detail also
[12:06] Kayaker Magic: I had to separate the ailerons from the wing by 1cm in places.
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: at run time..
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: forget the nvidia name for that :p
[12:07] Gavin.Hird did you upload a mesh that was triangulated by Blender?
[12:07] Kayaker Magic: I've been leting Blender triangulate on DAE save.
[12:08] Gavin.Hird save it as quads and let the viewer triangulate it
[12:08] Gavin.Hird it might come out different
[12:08] Kayaker Magic: worth a try.
[12:08] Gavin.Hird yep
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Blender has a tris to quads operation.
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: not sure who to trust more.. blender or viewer on triangulation :p
[12:09] Gavin.Hird viewer
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: fun i would say blender :p
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: my bet is viewer does "oh a quad, let me make 2 tris "
[12:10] Gavin.Hird in some cases wit will triangulate the tris Blender (or other) produce
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: and nothing else :)
[12:10] Kayaker Magic: I got some advice from a proffessional mesh maker, he said trust the viewer.
[12:10] Kayaker Magic: But I had some failed uploads that worked with the blender one, so just stuck with that.
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: wle ive no idea :)
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: seems ppl do recommend modeling with quads??
[12:12] Gavin.Hird yes
[12:13] Gavin.Hird model with and export with quads. let the viewer triangulate
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: I typically model with NURBS.
[12:13] Kayaker Magic: Nurbs have to turn into triangles in OpenSim
[12:14] Kayaker Magic: ?Is that the sound of a NURB?
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: remeber that the low level mesh tools on opensim are not same as at sl
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: i mean on viewers for opensim versus for sl
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, yes but I don't turn my models in to mesh until they hit Blender for conversion to dae files.
[12:15] Gavin.Hird are they not?
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: no
[12:15] Gavin.Hird please elaborate
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: viewers for sl use havoc mesh tools
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: for opensim they have to use hacd
[12:16] Gavin.Hird havok is the physics and has nothing to do with how the mesh is triangulated
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: i said MESH TOOLS
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: why is havoc there in viewer for sl ?
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: or havok never remember the name :)
[12:17] Gavin.Hird to calculate the pysics mesh in a format that is used by havok
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: No
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: it is the mesh tools
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: convex decomposition etc
[12:17] Gavin.Hird and what is the mesh tools?
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: and guess LODs.. but not sure
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: but sure to mk the convex hull and decomposition if selected
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: old news..
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: and a reason why decomposition is not that recomended.. does crash a lot more on viewers
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: the hacd more than havoc
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: well the convex hull also fails..
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: on ocasions
[12:21] Jamie.Jordan have a great week yall
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: nad ofc both options create the same asset format
[12:21] Gavin.Hird you too
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: u2
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: bye, Jamie.
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to wrap up todays meeting. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: well hacd is not that bad, many engines use it
[12:22] Kayaker Magic: Bye all!
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: sure they will not use havoc :p
[12:23] Kayaker Magic: See you next week
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Good luck with whatever you wind up doing in RL, snakedance. If you ever decide to return we will be here as always on Tuesdays at this same time.
[12:23] Gavin.Hird Hve fun Kayaker
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Kayaker.
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: My cat stopped waiting for me. Time to track her down and see if she still wants attention or play time. :)
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