Chat log from the meeting on 2021-04-20

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[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02] Jamie.Jordan Hi everybody
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... Seem to be missing a few people.
[11:03] Jagga Meredith: got two questions
[11:03] Jamie.Jordan like everybody
[11:04] Jagga Meredith: I've got a random person I want to have God mode on my region.  She's already an estate manager.  what else do i need to do?
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, ok. Let's wait for a bit to give Ubit a chance to show up.
[11:05] Gavin.Hird Hi all
[11:06] Jagga Meredith: hi
[11:06] Jamie.Jordan hi
[11:06] Ada.Radius hi Gavin, Jamie Jagga, Andrew
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Gavin.
[11:07] Gavin.Hird Hi Ada
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ada
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ubit
[11:07] Ada.Radius Hi Ubit
[11:07] Gavin.Hird Evening Ubit
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: no hat ada?
[11:10] Ada.Radius mwaha glasses. To celebrate that I'm starting to crack the morphs code in avatar_lad.xml
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:10] Ada.Radius needless to say, the documentatio is either missing or wrong
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: well they are not there..  they are on the llm files :)
[11:11] Jagga Meredith: I've got a random person I want to have God mode on my region.  She's already an estate manager.  what else do i need to do?
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: well teh defines and transition btns are on the xml
[11:11] Ada.Radius no, Kayaker did a code dump of the llm files so I can read them. Some morphs are indicated there but not the skeleton morphs
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga has the first question today.
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: think there is a issue with collada and missing normals and bisomething
[11:12] Ada.Radius they are in avatar_lad.xml, but trying to convert them to Blender values has been difficult. Doable, but difficult. NO DOCUMENTATION lolol
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: there is a option on opensim.ini to allow estate managers to ne god
[11:13] Jagga Meredith: ok
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, but that would allow all estate managers to have god powers. Is that what you want?
[11:14] Jagga Meredith: sure
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: ;# {region_manager_is_god} {} {Allow region manager gods} {true false} false
    ;; Allow region managers to assume god powers in regions they manage
    ; region_manager_is_god = false
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I thought perhaps you only wanted one person to have the powers and not everyone who is an estate manager.
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, what is your second question?
[11:16] Jagga Meredith: my user still insists hes seen a security orb that PM's directly to user vs local chat.  anybody seen this.  Ubit says unsupported by code
[11:17] Jagga Meredith: unfortunately he's unable to come up with orb or code.  suspect this may have been on WL
[11:17] Jagga Meredith: SL
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: You could make a security orb send a message to a user. llInstantMessage, IIRC.
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: if he sees that, where is the information?
[11:17] Jagga Meredith: ok
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: well no idea
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:18] Jagga Meredith: but that shows up in local chat, right?
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: If the user has set their viewer to show IMs in local chat then that is where it will appear.
[11:19] Jagga Meredith: ok
[11:19] Jagga Meredith: will try
[11:19] Jagga Meredith: i'm done
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Are there other questions before we go back down the rabbit hole regarding avatar mesh, skeletons, and rigging?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: well on code changes
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: something happened.. don't remember what :p
[11:20] Ada.Radius which has nothing to do with open sim, except that occasionally Ubit does something very very nice for avatars :)
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: ahh a small fix on parcel avatar hide code
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: on direct login to region, a avatar could not see others on same parcel.. oops ;)
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: depending on timing.. in same cases all worked fine.. ofc
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Two changes regarding log messages and a change to address mantis 8887.
[11:23] Ada.Radius ty Ubit
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: If there isn't anything else we can return to the topic of mesh, skeletons, and rigging.
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:24] Ada.Radius I have gotten huge help from you guys, even when you're telling me I'm nuts to try
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: we said that?
[11:25] Ada.Radius Gavin did :)
[11:25] Ada.Radius and I AM nuts to try, the spaghetti.voodoo is worse than you said
[11:26] Ada.Radius but it's an interesting puzzle, and better armatures in Blender turns out to be useful to a lot of people
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: thing on that is that there are more than a ton
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: morphs i mean
[11:27] Ada.Radius ya
[11:27] Ada.Radius and several different kinds
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: no idea how long it took to make the original
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: even with the original proper toold
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: tools
[11:28] Ada.Radius right now I'm figuring out the skeleton morphs. I'll need a programmer who has C++ and Python to help, and found one, but he has limited time and doesn't dance for free
[11:28] Ada.Radius but if I can nail female to male skeleton morphs, I'll have proof of concept
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, tell the person they don't need to dance. ;)
[11:29] Ada.Radius haaa his words not mine.
[11:30] Ada.Radius There's one great SL Wiki page, I'll see where I put the link, where the essential bits of documentation are all labeled "?"
[11:30] Jagga Meredith: "not even wrong"?
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: why do u need a coder?
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: the slider translates into a blender key something
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: as i said one of those avatars packages does have several of the morphs
[11:32] Ada.Radius because there are too many morphs to do it manually in a spreadsheet. Once I figure out the formula from ancient Maya to current Blender, I need someone to pull the numbers out of the two xml files and turn them into the six values for each of the 159 bones in Blender
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: they did migrate them to blender..
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: well i think
[11:32] Ada.Radius LL provides broken armatures for Bento armature in dae files. There was a Blender download for an earlier armature
[11:34] Ada.Radius Avastar and Bento Buddy can be OK if all you're doing is making mesh attachments or animations. I think Avastar is pretty good for animating. But not so good for male mesh attachments. and my goal is to eventually find a way to add avatars to the viewer code\
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: yes but some did added the morphs
[11:34] Gavin.Hird Did you check the repository
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: think i seen them
[11:35] Gavin.Hird has both tools and models
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: no idea where now :)
[11:35] Ada.Radius yes, I downloaded all that stuff
[11:35] Gavin.Hird ok
[11:35] Gavin.Hird and all is wrong?
[11:35] Ada.Radius no Blender conversion. No one wants to pay thousands for Maya
[11:36] Ada.Radius The Bento armatures SL has made available are, and I quote from the Bento resources page "broken". Gaia Clary put that language in, lol
[11:37] Gavin.Hird Did you try to import the fbx to DAZ studio and export it using the DAZ to Blender bridge?
[11:37] Ada.Radius no - that's a good idea.
[11:37] Gavin.Hird it is worth a try
[11:38] Ada.Radius even if I could pay for Maya, it's not much like the 2005 version (which I did have at one point), the definitions for bone head and bone tail are different, hence the need to do a conversion that still matches the xml files
[11:39] Ada.Radius i can live with the left to right asymmetries, but a bone head connected to a bone tail - the tail and head should be at the same x y z point in space, and the xml files have mismatches.
[11:40] Ada.Radius so the conversion to Blender meant disconnecting everything. It still exported and imported OK, which makes no sense. So still a lot to figure out
[11:40] Gavin.Hird You can also ask for assitance / clarification / help in the SL creator forums and their creator meeting
[11:41] Ada.Radius snort. I read all that stuff. I'm occasionally the person answering questions, lol. When I can stand it. I know, I'm a total drama queen. But still.
[11:41] Gavin.Hird a lot of those people helped LL develop and debug Bento
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: That site is really slow to load at the moment. In what format are the files on that web page? fbx?
[11:41] Gavin.Hird so they are significantly more likely to help you than this meeting
[11:41] Ada.Radius some max, some dae, two blender files, and maya
[11:42] Ada.Radius no, you guys ask the right questions
[11:42] Ada.Radius logically
[11:42] Ada.Radius which is quite a common response
[11:43] Ada.Radius including my misspelling lol
[11:43] Gavin.Hird ok....
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: What is the extension on the Maya files?
[11:43] Gavin.Hird ma
[11:43] Ada.Radius and I love Avastar, I just don't think it's perfect
[11:43] Ada.Radius and I can't use it to make a new avatar for the viewer
[11:43] Ada.Radius ma
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I can check if my modelling program can read those files.
[11:43] Ada.Radius ty ty
[11:44] Ada.Radius what are you using?
[11:44] Gavin.Hird you still need to render your new avatar
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Rhinoceros 3D.
[11:44] Ada.Radius oo I haven't tried that
[11:44] Gavin.Hird together with the old
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: forget sl
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: sl is about mesh avatars now
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: they don't care about ruth
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: ada is talking about the system avatar..
[11:45] Ada.Radius yes. I've done that with the female, but the female to male morph - I've got the numbers, or at least most of them, but not finished building it.
[11:45] Gavin.Hird which must be rendered
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: its sliders and respective morphs
[11:45] Ada.Radius yes
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: er those morphs are meshes
[11:46] Ada.Radius some are, some are skeleton morphs, some are color morphs
[11:46] Ada.Radius some are physics morphs
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: as we change a slide, the result is the interpolation btw two meshes
[11:46] Ada.Radius yes
[11:46] Ada.Radius and the skeleton in some cases
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: well im talkining about the harder ones :)
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: others just change bones sizes.. easier
[11:47] Ada.Radius and volume bones, for which I have 6 numbers for the arm bones and nothin else, lol
[11:47] Gavin.Hird since OpenGL limits you to the same number of bones as the Bento character, you cannot use more bones
[11:47] Gavin.Hird so it can only be variations of the same skeleton
[11:47] Ada.Radius not that easy - the arithmetic of how the morph file changes the skeleton file. I have most of it, but not all for the female to male morph
[11:48] Gavin.Hird plus if you do anything more drastic all existing animations will be off or compleltely broken
[11:48] Ada.Radius ya - there is one skeleton. well two, as LL added "pivot" values along with "pos" values, which gaia says are for mesh attachments and the inworld armature, respectively
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: those keys map almost directly to blender keus
[11:49] Ada.Radius I'd love to improve the armature - it's not even close to industry standard. Kayaker persuaded me to stick to what we have, at least for now
[11:49] Gavin.Hird yes there is a separate one for attachments
[11:49] Gavin.Hird which you in theory could rig to
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: but don't know :)
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: attach points are other thing
[11:50] Ada.Radius can in fact rig to. The differences between the two are so small I can't figure out why they even did it
[11:50] Ada.Radius If I don't change the armature the attach points won't change
[11:51] Gavin.Hird so for all practical purposes you are stuck with the rigging you already have
[11:51] Gavin.Hird unless you want to break all content
[11:51] Ada.Radius so for now, I build a mesh that conforms to UV mapping, normals and the armature, but better topology. I've done that. I need to nail the femal to male morph - armature first, then mesh
[11:52] Ada.Radius boobs are an issue. the male system mesh is awful - the overlapping faces in the chest - because they made some unfortunate decisions in 2005
[11:53] Ada.Radius and BoM is in the code somewhere but not in the Character folder. C++ I am assuming but don't know
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: remember sl is a lot of hacks on top of original good code
[11:53] Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: and not all those hacks are good..  far from it
[11:54] Ada.Radius brilliant original concept yes. No QC, a bunch of geniuses with no project manager, looks like
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: the did a lot or crap with mesh avatars in time
[11:54] Gavin.Hird really Ada
[11:54] Ada.Radius didn't even check the math, or someone would have seen to connected bone head to next bome tail mismatches
[11:55] Gavin.Hird given the longevity of the SL project, those people did an outstanding job given the limitations at the time
[11:55] Ada.Radius ya, and now they profit from mesh avatar sales - no motivation to fix anything
[11:56] Ada.Radius so, and this is after talking to quite a few programmers, one option is to add two avatars to the viewer - male and female. Leave the old one in place.
[11:56] Gavin.Hird I don't think I want to sit and listen to someone spouting over confidence in own abilities, while having created nothing
[11:56] Gavin.Hird you all have a good night
[11:56] Ada.Radius over confidence? I'm telling you nothing of the kind. Not a programmer, lolol
[11:57] Ada.Radius so, any opensim stuff to talk about? talking about the viewer always upsets Gavin.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: parcel avatars hide works again..
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:58] Ada.Radius But. I did get some useful stuff to think about today and I think you very much
[11:58] Ada.Radius :)
[11:58] Ada.Radius I remember the complaints, I
[11:58] Ada.Radius I'll let peeps I know, know.
[12:00] Ada.Radius (it's true that the vision for a better viewer re character might never happen. but it's OK to try)
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, I just finished checking. I don't have a program that can read the Maya files.
[12:02] Ada.Radius thank you for looking!
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: yw
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: With that, we find ourselves at the top of the hour. Any last minute items for today?
[12:03] Ada.Radius ya I don't either. I posted a new armature - female only at this point - at Github/RuthAndRoth/Reference/Ada Radius that shows the most recent efforts
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: sounds good
[12:04] Ada.Radius couple of people are testing it on their mesh attachments, we'll see.
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: You seem to be making progress even if it is at a slower pace than you might like.
[12:05] Ada.Radius ya. It's an interesting puzzle
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Last call for any other items for today before we wrap up this meeting.
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:07] Jamie.Jordan thanks everybody
[12:07] Ada.Radius ty ty ty
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. That will do it for today. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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