Chat log from the meeting on 2021-04-06

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[11:04] Ubit Umarov: Oh here is andrew
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, I have arrived. :)
[11:04] Jagga Meredith: no issues today, jusst here for the company
[11:04] Gavin.Hird Hi Andrew
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: just when i started the log
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:05] Gavin.Hird maybe that triggered his arrival?
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: possible
[11:05] Chat Logger: Meeting chat logging has been enabled.
[11:05] Chat Logger: You can view the log at:
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:05] Jagga Meredith: hello
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm typing with a cat on my lap today. So far she hasn't tried to help.
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: she will
[11:07] Jagga Meredith: I have to deal witrh intermittant attacks by two dachshunds
[11:07] Ada.Radius cats gotta do what cats do
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: yup
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: so what opensim news do you ppl bring ?
[11:07] Ada.Radius Kitely new patches working well
[11:08] Gavin.Hird working on the viewer...
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: cool
[11:08] Jagga Meredith: aviworlds upgradeed their Robust (whatever that means)
[11:08] Ada.Radius texture loading
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: well whatever those kitely patches where :)
[11:08] Ada.Radius there's a blog - Oren's
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: the EEP  update?
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: Yes, Kitely has EEP now, took code from Master.
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: ie partical 0.9.2 merge
[11:09] Gavin.Hird clever
[11:09] Ada.Radius moment I'll try to find it, Kitely website needs work
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: partial even
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... no new commits this past week.
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: yeah none
[11:10] Gavin.Hird Easter
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: i have some code on disk, but no commits
[11:10] Ada.Radius
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: made some changes related to those lsl  allowed headers on http
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I think I heard some reference to it. :)
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: but no commit
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Last week I had questions about the time it takes to shut down and start up busy regions, I started playing with [RegionReady] to get notifications about that.
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: yes they also did merge com new OSSL code
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: ..some..
[11:12] Gavin.Hird I suppose Norway Easter is the extreme - everything basically shuts down on Wednesday at 14.00 and reopens Tuesday morning
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: I find most of the messages RegionReady sends to be useless. "I'm about to shut down CHUNK".
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: and who knows about those timings kayker??
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: gezz
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: above all, system dependent
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: region state changes..   a ton of variables gezz
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: On a different topic: I would like to read the code that reads things like mesh and textures out of inventory. Where is a good place in the code to study this?
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: I tried reading the OAR saving code and got lost....
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Neovo.
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Easy to get lost in the code.
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: inventory has no mesh
[11:17] Ada.Radius ?
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: inventory only has uuids of assets
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: I meant out of the archive
[11:17] Neovo Geesink: Hello Everyone here :-)
[11:17] Ada.Radius Hey Neovo
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: most assets are not decoded at all by opensim
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: they are just sent as they are to viewers
[11:18] Ada.Radius so from cache to viewer?
[11:18] Gavin.Hird what is the purpose of the exercise Kayakwer?
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: What I want to do is find a way to calculate the hash of an in-archive mesh that gets the same has as a DAE on the hard drive. In both cases, only calculate the hash of the vectors and normals and skip the triangles, for example.
[11:18] Selby.Evans Hi Neovo
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: if in cache, yeap
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: DAE means nothing
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: opensim knows nothing about DAE
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: DAE is only a input format VIEWERS accetp
[11:19] Gavin.Hird viewer world....
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: Yes, but I can read the vectors out of a DAE and they should be the same vectors as the ones in the LLM in OpenSim.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: and from that they create a special Mesh Asset
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: no relation to DAE
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Yes, if I can read that Mesh Asset, I can calculate the hash of the vectors in it.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov whispers: no they are NOT
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: and region side asset is not llm file format
[11:20] Ada.Radius what format is it?
[11:21] Gavin.Hird what is the end goal Kayaker?
[11:21] Bill Blight: You would have to build a module that taught opensim what a collada file is and how to read it .. and then build a translation table to the asset , or something like that
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: and are not the same.. they are  only have 16 bits resolution, etc etc
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Bill. Didn't see when you came in.
[11:21] Ada.Radius Hey Bill
[11:21] Gavin.Hird Hi Bill
[11:21] Bill Blight is sneaky like that
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:21] Bill Blight waves
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: To be able to look at an object in world, and generate a has fingerprint, compare it against a hash calculated from a DAE and say "Yes this asset matches that DAE"
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: well and mesh is also more than just vecotrs
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: Yes, but vectors are unlikely to change when loading into OpenSim
[11:22] Selby.Evans Hi Bill
[11:22] Gavin.Hird which achieves what?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: no that will not work
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: Collecting data to help file a DMCA takedown.
[11:22] Bill Blight: X in collada/dae is not the same X in the asset so , would not be easy
[11:23] Gavin.Hird oh gosh
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: viewers have options on the mesh convertion
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: there is no one to one relation to a DAE
[11:23] Jagga Meredith: Turns out I do have a question.  Is there a way of looking at inventory from LSL?  I want to write a dedupper.
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: there is a thing called security...
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: lsl can't have much access to users inventory
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: There are section of the DAE that should not change, I will only compare those sections.
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, Can't do it with standard LSL functions.
[11:24] Jagga Meredith: ok
[11:24] Gavin.Hird to file a DMCA takedown on topo will probalby not get you anywhere
[11:25] Bill Blight: Why do you think there is a section that would not change?  They are not even remotely close to the same format?
[11:25] Kayaker Magic: So where is a good place in the code to look at the decoding of assets into mesh?
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, the viewer
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: sl has the mesh asset format on wiki
[11:25] Bill Blight: Viewers make the conversion from dae/collada to asset
[11:26] Ada.Radius because all mesh is defined by points in space. different formats can be converted to and from each other.
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jamie.
[11:26] Gavin.Hird indra/llprimitive/lldaeloader.cpp
[11:26] Ada.Radius Hey Jamie
[11:26] Kayaker Magic: No, I need to see the mesh before it is sent to the viewer.
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: You can get the asset blob out of the database.
[11:26] Jamie.Jordan Hi everybody
[11:27] Bill Blight: yes they can be converted, but that does not mean they are the "same" , or even in the same location, which would change the hash, which would make a translation matrix required ..
[11:27] Selby.Evans Hi Jamie
[11:27] Ubit Umarov:
[11:27] Gavin.Hird plus the viewer will possibly re-triangulate the mesh
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: Bill! I didn't see you there! Glad to see you here again.
[11:27] Gavin.Hird it will split it in pieces if more than 8 materials
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: (some of those things do not apply to opensim )
[11:28] Gavin.Hird and a number of other things
[11:28] Ada.Radius ya, but retriangulation just defines edges
[11:28] Bill Blight: if they are stored in a different number of binary bits, it would make it really hard to compare a "hash"
[11:28] Ada.Radius doesn't change the vertices
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: well i already told that there is no one to one relation
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: whatever
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: the info is there
[11:28] Kayaker Magic: Yes, I am aware of differences between in-DAE and in-world mesh. I can read both and ignore the areas that change.
[11:29] Bill Blight: actually after import faces, verts, normals, tris, may all be different
[11:29] Bill Blight: viewers do some weird stuff on import
[11:30] Gavin.Hird not only on import - LOL
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: and dcma based on DAE??  nahh not really
[11:30] Ada.Radius that they do. But if we look at the wire inworld and compare to, for example, the wire for that same asset in Blender, they look the same, if they're the same asset. I prevented a fraudulent DMCA take down one time by posting those images.
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: or dmca :)
[11:30] Bill Blight: we had a discussion a long time ago how viewer import may increase the number of tris dramatically because it decides to triangulate the import
[11:30] Ada.Radius but it's not DMCa proof. A hash could be
[11:31] Kayaker Magic: Yes, I am aware of triangulation issues, that is why I suggested only hashing on vectors and normals.
[11:31] Bill Blight: Normals can change on import too
[11:31] Ada.Radius vectors alone could do it.
[11:32] Kayaker Magic: Please just tell me, where is a good place in the code to watch it fetching the data. Let me waste my time looking at the data.
[11:32] Gavin.Hird There is a setting on import "Calculae normlas" and the uplloader can change the angle
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: There would also be the issue of whether the mesh was uploaded with or without a physics mesh. If it has a physics mesh it might be a different one.
[11:32] Gavin.Hird so not even that is a fixed parameter
[11:32] Ada.Radius yesyesyes. but where are the vectors
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: only physics decode mesh
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: and stop calling vertices vectors.. gezz
[11:32] Kayaker Magic: oops
[11:32] Ada.Radius sorry, VERTICES
[11:32] Bill Blight: you would be best to start looking at the viewer importer to start
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:33] Ada.Radius points in space, whatever you call it
[11:33] Gavin.Hird yeah, look at the viewer code
[11:33] Bill Blight: even points in space would change, based on the size of the mesh on upload , distance between vertices
[11:34] Bill Blight: since you can resize the mesh on upload
[11:34] Gavin.Hird that is another param
[11:34] Ada.Radius yes, they would, and that could be a problem.
[11:34] Gavin.Hird rigging
[11:34] Ada.Radius but where to look? Does anyone know?
[11:34] Gavin.Hird I told you in chat
[11:34] Bill Blight: start with the viewer
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: I'd rather not look at the viewer.
[11:34] Gavin.Hird indra/llprimitive/lldaeloader.cpp
[11:35] Ada.Radius viewer won't help with this
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: start by the url i pasted above
[11:35] Gavin.Hird that exist in every viewer repository
[11:35] Kayaker Magic: I know Opensim stores the data in assets, reads it out, gives it to the viewer. Can't I catch that on the way by?
[11:35] Ada.Radius ya I've looked at that SL page, lololol
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: depends on what you are doing
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: can't answer you how to intercept that
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: both meshmerized decode mesh for physics
[11:36] Bill Blight: problem with a hash is , you will need the viewer involved, because of UUIDs and bit values, to find how/when/why it is setting them at the time of upload, because much of that can change once it is an asset
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: warp2d uses other to decode visual parts
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: warp3d
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: from libomv
[11:37] Gavin.Hird what the viewer gets back from the server is a binary blob respresenting th mesh which is primarily haded to the renderer
[11:37] Bill Blight: ^^
[11:38] Gavin.Hird + some code to place it in the scene and permissions etc
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: yes i pasted a url ablove with the format of that blob
[11:38] Kayaker Magic: Yes, the URL helps me figure out how to read it, now I want to insert some code to read it. I'll look at warp3d.
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: well viewers still need extra work before rendering..  but not that much
[11:39] Bill Blight: if you want to use hash based DMCA protection, you would have to do something like attaching the hash to it at the time of upload/creation, comparing it after it has become an asset is going to be like herding cats
[11:39] Gavin.Hird what is actually in memory at any time is depended on such things as whick LOD is loaded for the mesh
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: warp3d uses libomv
[11:39] Ada.Radius question to Gavin: where in the viewer are objects stored - or in cache? Is it all in objectcache?
[11:39] Bill Blight: of course then you would have to store the original has somewhere secure, that it could not be altered for later compare
[11:39] Gavin.Hird in memory
[11:40] Gavin.Hird they are never persisted to local disk, except as cache object
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: The Maker's Muse channel in YT some time ago talked about away to watermark mesh files that could survive a certain amount of alteration.
[11:40] Ada.Radius OK
[11:40] Gavin.Hird but they can be all over the place in terms of quality
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: sure it was abotu meshes or sculpt maps andrew ?
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: i see that about sculpt maps, ages ago..
[11:41] Gavin.Hird because meshes can be partly loaded for a scene at any time
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: will not work on meshes
[11:41] Ada.Radius I've been putting extra verts in my mesh lately - can't be seen by thieves unless they know enough on how to find them. And if they did, they's be making they own stuff.
[11:41] Bill Blight: yeah you can embed, small or hidden geometry in a mesh that unless the person goes looking for it, hard to find ... I do a lot of 3d printing so spend a lot of time on Maker's Muse
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: assuming the viewer will not complain about degenetated things
[11:42] Bill Blight: ^^^^^^^^
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: bc things can't be that small
[11:42] Gavin.Hird what is the monetary value of the object you try to defend?
[11:42] Ada.Radius They're uploading fine.
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: as i said resolution is 16bits only
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: You can take a look at (although it mostly deals with STL files).
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: Gavin: I'm not trying to defend the monetary value of any one object, I am trying to build a tool for all creators to use to defend their ownership.
[11:45] Gavin.Hird ok
[11:46] Gavin.Hird ypu probably know that a very large portion of all mesh in SL, not to mention Opensim are copied form other creators
[11:46] Ada.Radius So, if I'm understanding this correctly, gathering data would have to be by an avatar going to the thieves sim and getting the information into that avatar's cache?
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: many even created to things unrelated to sl or opensim :)
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Embedding something in the file is probably a better option when uploading (new) objects. As has been pointed out there are a lot of variables in how an object can be upload that will make comparisons of two mesh data blobs difficult.
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: (created for )
[11:47] Gavin.Hird exactly Ubit
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: I've seen a method for using alpha in textures to hid ownership information.
[11:48] Kayaker Magic: Going to the theives grid is not necessary if the stolen items find their way to other grids where you can gather data on them.
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Another possible option is the use of steganography.
[11:48] Ada.Radius ya, and a lot of that borrowing is legal. and some thieves steal, then file DMCA against the original creator. OR two people use the same reference source with similar, but each original, final results. This ain't easy. But more tools would help with OpenSim issues.
[11:48] Gavin.Hird So you are essesntially asking us how you can create a copybot viewer Ada?
[11:49] Bill Blight: regardless, opensim being opensource, viewer being opensource, would take about 5 minutes for someone to get around ...
[11:49] Bill Blight: LOL
[11:49] Ada.Radius no - I can copy stuff if I need to without one ROFLLLL. I'm pretty good at modeling
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:49] Kayaker Magic: I promise to use my power only for good!
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:49] Ada.Radius But my stuff is generally original enough that few people even like it well enough to steal
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, what modeller do you use?
[11:49] Kayaker Magic: BLENDER!
[11:50] Bill Blight whispers: if(hash == hash)
[11:50] Bill Blight: lol
[11:50] Ada.Radius Blender mostly. Also PhotoShop 3D and Substance Painter for texturing. And Marvelous Designer for first drafts on clothing
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, ok. I know of the first two. I'll look up info on the other two for reference (although they are probably Windows programs).
[11:51] Ada.Radius yup
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: We are getting close to the top of the hour. I have a viewer question for Gavin.
[11:51] Gavin.Hird Substance Painter runs well on macOS
[11:51] Gavin.Hird as does the others
[11:51] Gavin.Hird sure Andrew
[11:52] Ada.Radius ya, Adobe owns Substance now
[11:52] Gavin.Hird sadly
[11:52] Ada.Radius ya
[11:52] Gavin.Hird turning it into a subscription only hell
[11:52] Ada.Radius that too
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: :P
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: everything will endup in a single black hole
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: ( thats a possible theory )
[11:53] Ada.Radius but I can get something textured in SP in a few minutes, that would take me hours in Blender or PS
[11:53] Gavin.Hird or /dev/null
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: so same happens to software devs :)
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: My viewer question for Gavin is about support for 3D mice. I used to use a Space Navigator and it worked with the viewer. I've recently upgrade to a Space Mouse Pro and it doesn't work with the viewer. Any thoughts as to why or if there are (simple?) changes needed in the viewer to support it?
[11:54] Gavin.Hird which viewer are you talking about?
[11:54] Ada.Radius Though I may dump all the subscriptions - I'm burned out on contract work, so learning to be a better shopkeeper, which looks to depend on having thousands of objects out there that each get about $10/year or so
[11:55] Gavin.Hird the viewer has a library called libndofdev
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Sing, or FS. Since most viewer code is from a common base I thought the support for 3D mice might be (mostly?) the same across them. Just asking if you have any insights as to how it is handled.
[11:55] Gavin.Hird that supports 3D mice
[11:55] Gavin.Hird it is developed by 3Dconnexion
[11:55] Bill Blight: I used my space navigator in Firestorm
[11:56] Gavin.Hird unless they develop support for your mouse, chances are slim to none it will work
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: BIll, so did I. The other day I tried to use my Space Mouse Pro in FS and it didn't work.
[11:56] Gavin.Hird all viewers use the same lib
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, the device I have is made by 3DConnexion.
[11:56] Bill Blight: you may have to remap the space mouse a LOT
[11:57] Gavin.Hird right
[11:57] Gavin.Hird how recent it the mouse?
[11:57] Gavin.Hird is*
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: The FS viewer doesn't recognize its existance.
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: A few months old.
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I use it with Rhino and Blender.
[11:57] Bill Blight: I think there is a shim that makes it show up as a joystick ... might look for that
[11:57] Gavin.Hird ok, because that lib has not been updated for possibly a year
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, I already enable the spacenavd daemon when I need to use it with Blender. Used to that to make the SN work in a viewer. Doesn't help with the SMP.
[11:58] Bill Blight:
[11:59] Gavin.Hird there was a code update 30 oct 219 in support for a new version of libndofdev
[11:59] Bill Blight: old thread
[11:59] Gavin.Hird 2019
[11:59] Gavin.Hird s
[11:59] Bill Blight: but such a critter does exist somewhere on the interwebs
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: The viewer just reports "no device detected".
[12:00] Gavin.Hird and after that there has been a recompile in connection with porting the code for VS2017
[12:00] Gavin.Hird if the lib does not know about the device ID, then
[12:00] Bill Blight: you would need to shim it as a generic joystick
[12:00] Gavin.Hird unless there is some driver you can set fcompatibility mode
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: The device has been around for some time. Perhaps they have made some changes that affected the device ID and the NDOF library used with FS hasn't picked up the IDs for the newer devices.
[12:01] Bill Blight:
[12:01] Gavin.Hird whispers: you are running Linux, yeah?
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Yup.
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: No big deal if it won't work (for now). I just get used to using it when doing something 3D related.
[12:02] Gavin.Hird I think all viewers use the lib compiled by LL, and they surely have not updated the Linux version in a long time
[12:03] Bill Blight: When I first got my navigator a long time ago, it would not show up either, had to install a beta driver at the time I think .. which essentially fooled the system
[12:03] Gavin.Hird I would file a jira with FS
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, wouldn't surprise me. Probably doesn't get a lot testing. It isn't a piece of gear a lot of people will have unless they are seriously in to 3D (modelling).
[12:03] Gavin.Hird I have never tested it
[12:04] Bill Blight waves bye bye
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, that's an idea. The driver I've installed might be old. I'll see if there is a newer version available.
[12:04] Bill Blight: astalabyebye peeps
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: tc, Bill. Good to see you again.
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the hour mark. Any last minute items for today?
[12:05] Gavin.Hird last time the linux version was updated by LL was in 2015
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Ouch.
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: This version of the 3D mouse is newer than that.
[12:06] Gavin.Hird it is
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I just needed to updated to the latest FreeCAD for the device to work with it. Similarly I had to updated DAZ Studio for it to work with the SMP.
[12:07] Gavin.Hird file a jira with FS
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I can do that. I'll check if there is a newer version of the driver for Linux first.
[12:08] Gavin.Hird sure
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... my driver that lets the device work with Blender is dated 2015. :)
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Looks that is a good time to put a cap on todays meeting.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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