Chat log from the meeting on 2021-03-09

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[11:01] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Cats sit on the bar, eberybody know dat.
[11:01] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody
[11:01] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:01] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Just barely got my standalone reinstalled and my inventory reloaded in time to get here.
[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Hi Jamie.
[11:01] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Hi Andrew.
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: There we go. Much better.
[11:02] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: The very moment I recovered from jab#1 my modem or router, maybe both, went down, and installing new ones triggered every known DNS error I could research. Glad to be back here.
[11:03] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Yikes.
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Wes.World, Glad you made it. Welcome to the dev meeting.
[11:03] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Thanks. I've been looking forward to meeting everyone.
[11:04] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Will I need audio for the meeting?
[11:05] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Question before we actually talk OS dev: has anyone tried to decipher LL's definition of avatar complexity? I looked at their rendering costs website, stuffed it in a spreadsheet and am trying to figure out what they think they mean in the arithmetic
[11:05] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: no audio, all text
[11:05] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Thanks, Ada. Ntmu btw.
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Just a heads up. We are almost at that time of year when parts of the world start messing with the clocks. If you are in a part of the world where the clocks change twice a year keep this in mind for the next few meeting. If you don't you will arrive at the wrong time for the meeting.
[11:05] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: which time zone are you using for these meetings?
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Wes, the meetings are done in text chat only and logged. The log is posted in the Office Hours section of the Open Simulator wiki pages.
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Selby.
[11:06] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Selby
[11:06] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Thanks Andrew. i did read the last meeting.
[11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:06] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Ada, it says 19:00 UTC on the website.
[11:07] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Hey Selby.
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: PST probably is a better reference
[11:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya I know, but I don't know whether you're using Pacific daylight dates or UTC daylight dates
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as it changes when the US does
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: This meeting is scheduled for 11:00 grid time
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, Pacific Time. Best thing to do is log in here before Tuesday after your clocks change and look at your time vs. grid time and work out what will now be 11am grid time on your local clock.
[11:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: OK, so PST, PDT i assume
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: This meeting is scheduled for 11:00 grid time (19.00 UTC if grid time is PST or 18:00 UTC if it is PDT)
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is PST
[11:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I actually live in PST/PDT so I can be lazy
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: grid time also changes
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: a mess :)
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I can never keep track of which half the year is ST and which is DT.
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: opensim should use UTC only
[11:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: So, no, on Avatar Complexity. I can see why everyone hates it.
[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nothing like the old railroad times
[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha
[11:08] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: lol
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, I've never looked at the LL definition of avatar complexity.
[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: don't have the code in m viewer, so never look at it either :-)
[11:09] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'll ask Beq if she'd consider making it more predictable, and measuring the actual viewer costs for FS. I know what she'll say, no time to deal with it. But I can ask
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: and they did change it :)
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I just know that in the summer I'm four hours behind UTC and five hours behind during the winter.
[11:10] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya, and didn't update for Bakes on Mesh nor Animesh attachments
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: and guess they will change it again
[11:11] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: But I'm helping set up a project that will mean supervising artists, lots of them, and I need parameters for avatar that won't kill viewers nor servers. Avatar Complexity is As Good As It Gets.
[11:11] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and it's not good
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: yeah it is a metric
[11:12] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: If it's the one I'm thinking of, Ada, I'd love to hear more about it.
[11:12] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: it is a mess
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: seen a 990k avatar a few days ago
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: and it was naked :)
[11:12] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Wow.
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, tell people they don't need to model find detail that will (mostly) never be seen.
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: s/find/fine/
[11:12] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Rendering_weight
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: well seems it was wearing clothes. but they never did rez for me
[11:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'll need to talk about topology, materials, rigging, lotta issues
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: think that is a older thing ada.Radius
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: hmm or not
[11:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'm sure it is, I looked at the page history lol. But I haven't found a newer
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: tell them no avatar should ever exceed 32k tris - same with worn clothes
[11:14] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: hair and shoes are the real boogers
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: yeah think that was related to LI
[11:14] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: My old hair back in SL was more complex than my entire avatar.
[11:14] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I could hand them my spreadsheet. Except. These are artists. Some are also techie, but now this kind of techie.
[11:15] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: not
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: shoes are tiny in most scenes and does not need much geometry that a good texture cannot fix
[11:15] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I agree
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: teach them to model low poly
[11:15] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: The fashionista aesthetic (coughs up furballs) likes avatar complexity that's over 300K. They're proud of it actually
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is an art because you rely more on clever texturing
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: hair is always a a heavy thing
[11:16] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: hair could be better. I may have to learn to like making it so I can show that a well structured mesh with a minimum of alpha channels (a real killer) can be done
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: well gavin's hair excluded
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: That's the ultimate in low impact hair. :)
[11:17] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: lol
[11:17] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: LL's formula uses a multiplier for each prim or mesh or sculpty link that uses an alpha channel
[11:17] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: huge
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually it is the same as your, except the geometry is hidden inside the skull
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: inst hair a morph?
[11:18] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: so a 300 prim wig, with each prim displaying an alpha texture, and most do, racks up numbers
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: avatar hair is a morph
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or a handful of morphs
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... I do see hair inside your avatar head, Gavin.
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: that is base avatar one...
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which you can save and and wear
[11:18] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: all the system avatar parts use morphs. the hair layer has more LOD levels than the other parts. But most people hide it for their avatar
[11:19] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: the llm files are: Hair, Head, Eyeballs, Upper, Lower, Skirt
[11:19] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: each with their own morphs, LOD definitions.
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:20] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: If Kayaker were here he could talk more about the LLM files - that's what he's been working on . I've been working on the avatar_lad.xml side
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the trick is to morph the hair and the skull so the combination hides the avatar hair geometry
[11:20] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: no - that's done now with alpha layers OR Bakes on Mesh. Bakes on Mesh is better
[11:20] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: right, and morphs.
[11:20] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: both
[11:20] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: all three, lol
[11:21] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I hand out lo-lag hair layers like candy. I've seen some that use 1024x1024 alpha textures to hide it. The browshaper is in the Hair layer, for reasons no one can fathom.
[11:22] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: anyway. OpenSim server dev talk? I'm taking too much time with my issues
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: hmm?
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: morphs are no used on mesh avatars
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: not
[11:23] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: that is correct
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't wear any alpha layers to hide the avatar hair, Ada
[11:24] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: why Kayaker and I are trying to re-engineer the system avatar.
[11:24] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't either re alpha layers on hair. But many many do
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: make sure you know how to render the re-enginerred avatar too
[11:25] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: that's the thing, aint it
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: that will just work
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: if xml files are not changed etc
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so as I have said before, your consers are beter placed with LL who actually have the resources to do something about it
[11:25] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I haven't ventured out of the Character folder, though some of the avatar rendering information is not in the Character folder
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: or should :)
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: conserns*
[11:26] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: LL is not going to do it.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: mesh avatars is is big business
[11:26] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yup
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, nobody in opensim are able to rewrite the viewer
[11:26] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: follow the money
[11:26] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: nobody yet.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: BOM was already bad enough for it
[11:26] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: BoM actually does make more efficient avatars at least. more like Unity
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do you have any idea what it cost to actually hire someone who has the skills to properly work on the renderer?
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: bom is a step into system avatars :)
[11:27] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: but unity is another beast
[11:27] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: about $200K I think
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: you can make characters in several ways on it ( or ue4 )
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no, we are talking up to 7 digit yearly salaries
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: unity is actually free now
[11:28] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kayaker are doing a lot to de-tangle the spaghetti, just cuz.
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: utill your sells reacha value
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: think ue price model is like that also
[11:28] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and that work helps inform other projects, and vice versa.
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: the number of gamedevs outthere exploded
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can it handle dynamic content?
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or existing content?
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: ofc not
[11:30] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: like that farkakta avatar complexity calculation, where the LOD calculation doesn't even come close to the actual LODs in the viewer Character folder files.
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, then you put yourself in a Sansar position
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: guess some small parts.. slowly
[11:31] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: maybe. Or we think outside the concrete military-style bunker-thought box.
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: performance depends on optimized and pre computed things
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: like light effects blabla
[11:31] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and since this is a dynamic game, optimized.
[11:32] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: There are some brilliant things LL did. the few bone-headed things need fixing and LL, now that it's owned by a venture capital group, will never do.
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Here comes Kayaker.
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Kayaker. :)
[11:32] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hey Kayaker. Been talking about you and the llm files.
[11:32] Kayaker Magic: Sorry I'm late.
[11:32] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Hey Kayaker. Ntmu.
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If you want to have everyone recreate all content, you can do whatever you want :-)
[11:32] Kayaker Magic: That is why my ears were burning!
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:32] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: they do look kinda pink...
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: well sl is the only ll product now no?
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Kayaker
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: they did add some sansar features to it already
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: and will add more
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: like the move of servers to the cloud
[11:33] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I would like to think toward the Blender model. Nonprofit foundation, huge community support and input.
[11:34] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: a few paid devs
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: next they will just stop servers that have noone like kitely does
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: if they don't already
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: adn it is possible they will change the building model
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: I noticed that you can set up Yeti so that you can view distant regions, even when there is a gap of no-land between the region you are in, and the distant one. When did that start working?
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: restrict it to registered builders
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: and on special regions ???
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: nothing that new on that kayaker
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they announced that Ubit?
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: i think...
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: AFAIC remember that worked back in 2014
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: i did ear one of them speak abotu that on a conference
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: speak and announcement are to different things :-)
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: it its the only way to improve preformance.. so..
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: 3D needs optimized content and as i said pre computed things
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: even load times
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: see on consoles the gpus read contents directly from the ssds
[11:38] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya but we having fun creating our own worlds
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: cpu loading is 2 slow to load new game levels (ie regions )
[11:38] Kayaker Magic: Speaking of nearby regions, I saw someone put 9 2x2 vars around a 4x4 var region, and she said it worked fine. Is there any improvement (perhaps in the viewer) that would make that sort of thing work better?
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: ofc this is about user created content
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: if they touch the main region viewers will blowup
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: one region can only have ONE other region per side
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: i mean glued to it
[11:40] Kayaker Magic: I flew around the central region, crossed a few borderes, did not have a crash!
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: it does blowup viewers on closing regions
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: gezz me and bill spent a few ours on a grid and here checking that
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: a few hours
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what is the use case Kayaker?
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... how do you put 9 2x2 around a 4x4? That doesn't seem to match up.
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: two on ssome sides, 1 on others, I forget the arrangement.
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: Plus kitty-corner ones.
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: One side must have 3.
[11:44] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: I have a similar arrangement on my server and also no issues.
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: (no offense intended Ada)
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: With the corner ones, you could put 12 2x2's around a 4x4
[11:45] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Yep.
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: In the past, when I did things like that, it would work for a while, and then the viewer would just crash out.
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: im not going to repeat what i said
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: you know better... fine.. enjoy
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: gezzz
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: If you want to keep the land square it would be 8 2x2's and four 1x1s for the corners. :)
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: I heard you, just wondered if things had changed.
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: ( just do not dare mantis about it :p )
[11:46] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: I would presume the use case is importing OAR's of different sizes into a server adjacent to each other.
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they have not Kayaker
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, you know people will, and have often, mix and match region sizes.
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: no more coments on that
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: I've heard people say there are combinations that work, 2x2's next to 4x4's but not next to 3x3's....
[11:47] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: I'd say it's a very common practice, especially with things like Dreamgrid out there.
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Wes, if they do and it breaks, they get to keep the pieces. ;)
[11:48] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000 shrugs.
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: We are close to the top of the hour.
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Before you arrived I was giving everyone a heads up about the upcoming clock change time of your. Keep it in mind so you don't miss a meeting.
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I published a new verier version yesterday which has a function ported from Firestorm to show the physics model of a mesh when you edit it
[11:50] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: nice
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: DL at the susual place
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usual
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: ( one day he will had the LODs also .. / me runs and hides )
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: add even
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is also a built in pose stand now, but a bit short of aniumations as we don't know how to distribute them to the grids
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: son only A-pose supported
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: that fs pose?
[11:51] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I thought I didn't need it, as avatar attachments only need a tri for physics. But I just started a project with more complex hard surface modeling and ya the right physics model is a puzzle
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: fs posses
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: poses
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: A-pose it built into the viewer
[11:52] Ubit Umarov whispers: what tri for physcis ??
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: I like what Alicia did for her (universe/world?) project where you can edit a mesh inworld. That would be an interesting feature to have.
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: OK, here's some help I could use: I set up a grid and it never gives "your friend has logged on" notifications when your friends log on. What did I do wrong in the INI file to break that? In the log, I do see an error about DataSnapshotManager.NotifyDataServices, could that be related?
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: avatars NEED NO PHYSICS
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: geezzz
[11:52] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: A pose and T pose would do it.
[11:52] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: @Ubit, ya, except people are rezzing them out to make animesh
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but there is no default t-pose built into the viewer
[11:52] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and forgetting to set to phantom
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: still no need
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: they do have a convex hull
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it would have to exist on the grid for the viewer to use it
[11:53] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I agree, but stuff breaks if ya set it up wrong, so now I'm importing at least a tri with everything
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: no physics == automatic convex on ubode
[11:53] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya.
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: a stupidity on bullet.. but does not matter :p
[11:54] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: :)
[11:54] Ubit Umarov whispers: wel stupidity is a bad word.. delete it :)
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: just adding a mesh with one tris is bad
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: stupidity is a stupid word?
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 whispers: every time restore from backup actually works it is magic :-)
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: oen tris is nothing
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: one
[11:55] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: people get fixed wrong ideas on how to do stuff, then magic thinking takes over. We do what we can
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: ubode will not like it that much
[11:55] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: So with a lot of grids seeming to move to 0.9.2.2, it seems like a great time to update the documentation. I'd be happy to help with that.
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, my first thought is to check references to Friends in the ini files.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: and a tris doing what??
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: that tris is setup to collide with what?
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: terrain ??
[11:57] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: my own magic thinking - when I upload with a tri in the physics tab, at least (cube is prolly a better idea), less stuff breaks when people use it for things I never intended.
[11:57] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I certainly don't want collitions
[11:57] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: collision
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: well you do know that viewers do always upload the convex hull right?
[11:57] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: can have like 256 tris or so.. but always there
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: actually 256 verts..
[11:58] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: so I'm guessing that for some outlandish uses for things, the viewer code might not take into consideration also. That's a guess.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: convex assets have not tris
[11:59] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: what do they have?
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: verts only
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Wes, That would be good. Documentation always needs to be done. I would suggest mentioning your offer in the dev mailing list. I'm not sure what docs need to be udpated, or what new docs are needed.
[11:59] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: verts no edges? OK. And aha that explains a few things
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: verts on a convex shape define the entire topology
[12:00] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Thanks, Andrew. I'll do so. Tackling some kind of upgrade instructions first would seem to make the most sense.
[12:00] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Then I'd be happy to take on the main documentation of installing a new instance.
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: ofc tris are created by gpus and physcis engines
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: bc they do like them :)
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: but the asset on convex does not have them
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: as i said.. redundant
[12:01] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ah. OK. might need that redundancy for some weird scenarios
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: (ll are clever )
[12:01] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya sometimes
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: well think havoc does have functions for those convex cloud of points
[12:02] Ubit Umarov whispers: or cloud of convex points?
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: or.. well that :)
[12:02] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: thinks I might have to experiment with importing clouds of points. Just cuz.
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: wel the laser things do that all the time now
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: ppl even get full tris from cloud of points that are concave or generic
[12:03] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I did not know that. aha and ty. I need to look out beyond av making from time to time
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it renders so fast
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: i mean those RL 3d laser scanners
[12:04] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: but details
[12:04] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I kind of knew that, but didn't think about virtual world use of it
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: just a mesh for avatar has no need for physics data
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: unlike others
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: ( as current uses .. )
[12:05] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: right, and if people only used av stuff for avs, that would be OK. But they don't. They blow them up to sim sized sculptures then IM me that stuff isn't working.
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it needs one quad to upload
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: quads are gone :p
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: well openGL had them and did remove
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they get converted by the viewer to tris on upload
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Blender can use quads.
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: and no not need for upload
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you should do all your modeling as quads
[12:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: quads are better for lots of the workflow - rigging and texturing. But everything inworld is a tri. Or as Ubit points out, a point.
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I generally do my modelling using NURBS. :)
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: don't thing you should do model with quads
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: in fact quads can't rep some shapes
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you might have to make a tri in a pinch here and there
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: er i did said a point..
[12:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: rigging and texturing - quads much better. But then figure out triangles either before exporting or rely on either Blender's or the viewers triangulation.
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but animating tris get messy
[12:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: chop chop
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: i only said that a convex shape can be stored just as its points
[12:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya animating tris is horrible
[12:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: but should test as tris before exporting
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know anything about tri or quad count until I export to a format for use with Blender or SL/OS.
[12:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Must go -- bye all
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: We are past the top of the hour. Kayaker, as you came late, did you have any questions before people start leaving?
[12:09] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Bye Selby.
[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye Selby
[12:09] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: @Ubit, but now I know that about convex hulls, and my busy mind will think of a way to misuse that information :)
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Selby. Bye. thanks for coming.
[12:09] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bye Selby, tc
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: ubode could do quad colisions faster than the 2 tris needed for same area
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: bau nahh
[12:10] Kayaker Magic: I asked the one about friends logon notifications....
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: well a box is programaticly collided more or less like quads
[12:10] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: I have an issue getting groups running, but I can open a Mantis if that's more appropriate.
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Yes, you did. Is the problem only with local users, HG users, or both?
[12:12] Kayaker Magic: Only checked with local users so far
[12:12] Kayaker Magic: Dos DataSnapshotManager.NotifyDataServices have anything to do with it?
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I wouldn't have expected it to be a problem with local users.
[12:13] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: have a great day everybody very interesting meeting. enjoyed it
[12:13] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: You too Jamie.
[12:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: :) bye Jame
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: DSN doesn't have anything to do with friends info, afaik.
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Jamie.
[12:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: i have to go too, rl rl rl
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ada. See you next week.
[12:13] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Bye Ada, ntmu in world.
[12:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: be safe everyone
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Interesting. The small cat turned big for a just a fraction of a second before disappearing.
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Any last minute items for today?
[12:15] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Nope, just that groups issue.
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Wes, I think I missed your question about Groups. What was the problem and which version of groups are you using?
[12:17] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: I just installed my own standalone HG about a month ago. I was trying to enable Groups V2, but realized I was still on SQLite. So I basically blew everything out and reinstalled using MariaDB and now have Groups "running", but when I try to login my avatar, i get a console error and my client hangs.
[12:17] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Like I said, I can open a Mantis.
[12:18] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: I have console output of the error log too.
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: hard to help from that data
[12:18] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Well, obviously I'm not giving you all the details here.
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: yeah mantis is there for reasons :)
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Wes, The usual first thought is there is a problem with the configuration. Double check the DB connection strings used for the groups tables.
[12:19] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: I know I'm connecting to the database, because the console comes up. It wouldn't do that before. It's probably something very simple, so I will open an issue for it.
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: ok
[12:20] Kayaker Magic: You need to enter the DB connection parameters in several places....
[12:20] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: The real problem is that the documentation on setting up groups has some majr errors in it I think.
[12:20] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Yeah, I saw that Kayaker. Hopefully I just missed one.
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Wes, Fixing them can be your start on doing documentation work.
[12:21] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Oh, definitely. That's my intention.
[12:21] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: I figured now is a great time for me to be looking at it, sicne I'm coming at it from a new user point of view.
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:22] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: I write documentation for my job all the time anyhow.
[12:22] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: It's second nature.
[12:23] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Okay. I'll open a Mantis and send an email to the mailing list about my desire to help with documentation.
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I also document a lot of the stuff I work on for myself and for work.
[12:23] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Awesome. It definitely can be helpful.
[12:24] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Especially because my memory is terrible. lol
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Don't forget to include the error message(s) in the mantis. Use an attachment to the mantis if the amount of log text is too long.
[12:24] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: I definitely will. I have it sitting in a Notepad, ready to go.
[12:24] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Hey, Kayaker. You have a minute?
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Wes, I know what you mean. I figure something out and if I don't document it my mind may forget it while I work on the next project.  :)
[12:25] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: lol. Yep.
[12:25] Kayaker Magic: Sure, whats up Wes?
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at almost half past the hour. This is a good time to wrap things up for this week.
[12:25] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Nm. Mind if I message you?
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:26] Kayaker Magic: OK
[12:26] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Good call, Andrew. Nice to meet all of you.
[12:26] Wes.World @theshire.techzendo.net:59000: Seriously. Thank you for all that you do.
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice to meet you, Wes. Drop by any time.

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