Chat log from the meeting on 2021-02-16

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[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03] Jagga Meredith: here
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: hi andrew
[11:03] Gavin.Hird up north the number is over 320
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: well texas is most the time the oposite i guess
[11:03] Gavin.Hird right
[11:03] Gavin.Hird so the insulation is to keep heat out
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:04] Jagga Meredith: still ugly for people on home med equipment when power goes out due to AC brownouts
[11:04] Kayaker Magic: If you look outside to my right, you will see my first attempt to make an animesh sail, flapping in the 'wind'. (the animation is rotating on the wrong axes. Work in progress)
[11:04] Jamie.Jordan hi everybody
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: hi jamie.Jordan
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: hi pius
[11:04] Pius Noel: hello everybody
[11:04] Gavin.Hird yeah, it moves
[11:05] Jamie.Jordan and yes it's cold here :-)
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Supposed to flap by rotating parts around z, it seems to be rotating about Y.
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: well they do move.. somehow kayaker
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ada
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: but can't tell they do look like sails sorry ;)
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: Ada! Look at the sail outside to my right!
[11:06] Ada.Radius Hi everyone, sry I'm late
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: hi ada.Radius
[11:06] Gavin.Hird Hi Ada
[11:06] Pius Noel: hi Ada
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see anything. Are the sails still there?
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: there ... outside, at yr left.. hmm or right lol
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, they are outside the building.
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: left
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, I see them.
[11:07] Ada.Radius did you look at bone roll?
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: No time to look at anything yet!
[11:09] Pius Noel: looks interesting. I never tried anymesh so far.
[11:09] Ada.Radius bone roll will tell you which way the bone is going to move on each axis - start by zero-ing it out, then if you still have rot problems in world you can try changing the orientation in Blender, and.or changing bone roll settings
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: My goal is to use animesh to do more than dancing avatars! Flapping sails! Rippling waves! Flapping flags!
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: at lbsa there is a osgrid logo waving
[11:10] Ada.Radius mine: scarves, medieval bliaut sleeves, feathers
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: well as a logo can wave
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: flowing capes!
[11:11] Ada.Radius K is trying to do it without the gawdawful texture load of flexies or alphas
[11:11] Ada.Radius and will do it, this is close
[11:11] Ada.Radius wings and tails, that would be a great use. I'm using flexies temporarily
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, sculpt animation or transparency animation uses lots of server resources, while animesh is done by the viewer!
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: You can do wings and tails with the Bento bones for them.
[11:12] Gavin.Hird poor viewer
[11:12] Kayaker Magic whispers: HA! It is th viewer's turn to carry the load now!
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: well animation is something viewers must do
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: gpu helps a lot
[11:13] Ada.Radius this is stuff the viewer should be doing.
[11:13] Gavin.Hird did it not always? :-)
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: dunno possible there was a static no animation avatar once? :)
[11:13] Ada.Radius before my time, I joined SL in 2006
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: When I animated dinosaurs, I had to use the server to move all the child prims. Animations did not used to work on mesh, animesh is the answer!
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: well av animation is a fundamental thing
[11:14] Gavin.Hird a static no animation avatar is easy. just upload an unrigged avatar mesh
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: But I struggle to learn how to set it all up in Blender
[11:14] Selby.Evans hi everyone
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: wc selby.Evans
[11:14] Gavin.Hird Hi Selby
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby.
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: Ada is little cat on my shoulder telling me how to use Blender.
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: well about opensim
[11:15] Pius Noel: Hi Selby
[11:15] Ada.Radius lotta steps in Blender for animating mesh. You're further along than I am in some areas.
[11:15] Ada.Radius Hi Selby
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: again not much activity on code during last week
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: let me see
[11:16] Ada.Radius and today I learned some stuff too - not all the definitions in avatar_skeleton.xml matter when uploading an edited armature
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: yeah "minor cosmetics" :)
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: today hmm and yesterday i did add a resquested ossl function
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: mantis 8865: add experimental osNpcLookAt
[11:17] Gavin.Hird I look forward to your major cosmetics commit
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: it makes region send a viewer effect packet to all viewers
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: effect of type lookat
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Today I ran across a new (to me) plug-in for blender ->
[11:17] Ada.Radius what does npcLookAt do? related to the morph xml file in viewer Character folder?
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: so the npc head can turn to a target
[11:17] Ada.Radius ooo
[11:18] Ada.Radius so yes
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, sounds like another step forward in to making people think an NPC is a real avatar. :)
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: viewers do send lookat all the time
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: it is a needed thing
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: in fact tunring it off means sending it fixed lol
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: but not that clear i kept seeing the +
[11:19] Ada.Radius attentions.xml and attentionsN.xml
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: yeah related to that
[11:19] Ada.Radius which are confusing, why both?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: added experimental
integer osNpcLookAt(key npckey, integer type, key targetkey, vector offset)
[11:20] Ada.Radius can it be used in animesh avatars?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: returns < 0 if error ( bad keys etc.. )
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: no animesh are not avatars
[11:20] Ada.Radius I know
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: well i assume not
[11:21] Ada.Radius less load on the sim for similar effect, so would be great if they could be scripted to look at
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: i onlu made it for npcs.. that first argument must be a npc uuid
[11:21] Ada.Radius OK
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: type:
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: NPCLOOKAT_NONE = 0;
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: no idea what they do lol
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: most just did the same on the little tests i made
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: those do map to the attenctions
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: CLEAR might stop the "look at".
[11:23] Gavin.Hird if there is a LOOKAT_MOUSELOOK I suppose that is what a script does to force an avatar into mouselook
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: it actually does not
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: but there is also "NONE".
[11:23] Ada.Radius I'll hand that information off to Iain McCracken, who will know what to do with it. We're working with the Kitely Singapore 1830ish replica. Some animesh characters, some NPC. Look at would be very very helpfful
[11:23] Gavin.Hird not sure that is very useful for an NCP
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: no much point on a npc mouselook :p
[11:24] Gavin.Hird my point :-)
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: but viewers to send that when we are on mouselook
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: so others do want to know it ??
[11:24] Ada.Radius look at for NPC? yes they will
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: well i didn't test that, that much,,
[11:25] Ada.Radius to set up the "extras" actors for video
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Does that work for looking at both objects/prims and other NPCs/avatars?
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: the target UUID can be a avatar or a prim
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: the noc will look to the offset, relative to it
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... you can have a guard NPC watch you as you walk by. :)
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: will try to lool
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: and look
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: yeah you can
[11:26] Ada.Radius (@Andrew, ty for link, new to me too)
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, I found that in relation to the MakeHuman program.
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: oops
[11:28] Ada.Radius I like the MBLab characters better than MakeHuman - either way, making walks is a booger
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: forget that this region may be on older code
[11:28] Gavin.Hird I think I am going to take the plunge on Bneto Buddy
[11:29] Gavin.Hird Bento
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, if you can do mocap to get a BVH file and apply that to the mesh it would simplify things.
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: errr where is the bot?
[11:29] Ada.Radius I got it but haven't had time to try it out. Kaylee West is using it for the animesh background characters in the Singapore sim
[11:29] Gavin.Hird he has published a series of videos on animesh the last couple weeks
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: guess that failed
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: duu
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: its there behing kayaker
[11:30] Kayaker Magic: Ada and I are tinkering with getting Blender to make mesh avatars, animesh, animations without expen$sive plugin$
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: see the bot?
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: i see it following me
[11:31] Kayaker Magic: Cool!
[11:31] Gavin.Hird it does
[11:31] Gavin.Hird nice
[11:31] Ada.Radius yes. I have two armatures donated at GitHub/ruthAndRoth/Reference/Ada Radius - one that works better with blender, then swap in the one that will actually export to the viewer
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: just this code
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: else if (msg0 == "lookat" && npc != NULL_KEY)
osNpcLookAt(npc, 3, "284b2787-d3e7-1e9a-010b-c3c099f86a42", <0,0,0>);
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: and only once
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: viewers that where here, do the rest
[11:32] Ada.Radius vy vy cool
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: hmm exorcist effect?
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: ohh nopes.. it does not twist the neck :)
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, MBLab is a fork of the Manuel Basitioni LAB program. I'm definitely going to check that out.
[11:33] saycount: Start
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[11:34] saycount: Stop
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: well some one did ask for this.. and was actually easy to add
[11:34] Gavin.Hird good work
[11:35] Kayaker Magic: Ubit should be allowed to have some fun!
[11:35] Ada.Radius yes - after Manuel left the project a few other people took over. I like the original better except for having to use an old version of Blender, which is a showstopper for me. It makes some nice characters. Which I then want to completely redo - retopologize and redo the UV maps if I want it for inworld.
[11:35] Ada.Radius I think Bento Buddy will automatically convert the MBLab armature to OS armature
[11:36] Ada.Radius but the vertex weighting will probably be off
[11:36] Ada.Radius maybe
[11:36] Jane Doe: You will pay for this with your liiiiiivvveeessss!!!.....
[11:36] Ada.Radius haaaa
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: well and this was this week code :(
[11:37] Ada.Radius Kayaker and I are also trying to figure out how to teach rigging, so far no joy,but Selby has given much good advice
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: basicly..
[11:37] Kayaker Magic: I have a grid setup question to ask:
[11:38] Kayaker Magic: I know this grid that has two instances of Robust. One on ports 8002,8003, the other on 8012,8013. In the region instances, the OpenSim.ini files use 8013 for assets 8002 and 8003 for everything else. Seems to have been working fine as a closed grid. But when I upgraded the system to allow HyperGrid, the 8002 Robust started creating its own fsassets folder and anything I bring from another grid has "missing from assets" errors. What can I do to fix this?
[11:39] Ada.Radius I'm gonna love the new code Ubit, after I get a lot of help with the scripts :)
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:39] Kayaker Magic raises his hand.
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: you should not see 2 instances of this grid assets
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: only one
[11:40] Kayaker Magic: They did two instances to divide the load, will the grid runslower with one instance?
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: that is not for you
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: ngix does balance
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: So many options and tools for helping to create avatars:Avastar, Bento Buddy, MakeHuman, MBLab, and DAZ Studio. Probably Poser may belong in that list.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: AssetServerURI = ""
[11:41] Gavin.Hird lots of options to make avatars. the issue is rigging them
[11:42] Ada.Radius ya
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: It is an independant grid, not related to OSGrid.
[11:42] Gavin.Hird and producing stuff the avatar can wear that fits
[11:42] Ada.Radius more rigging
[11:42] Gavin.Hird yep
[11:42] Gavin.Hird and that is actually the harder rigging in most cases
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, true and some of those items supposedly also help with rigging.
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: wel osg uses a proxy to do some loadbalance btw 2 assets service instances
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: or did at some point
[11:43] Ada.Radius why we're trying to teach it. some fine artists are halted right there. It's not difficult actually, just very detailed and infor from LL is useless
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: Dan tells me he has several instances, uses some linux load balancing code to distribute the load.
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: uses a proxy service
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: ngix or something
[11:45] Gavin.Hird 8002 is supposed to be behind the FW not accessible to normal users of the grid, 8003 is supposed the be the public port
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: yea, ngix, or something like that
[11:45] Ada.Radius another resource: GitHub/RuthAndRoth - Ai Austin, Serie Sumai and I have been scouring the web to find old LL files to help disentangle the spaghetti.
[11:45] Ada.Radius Fred B also
[11:46] Jagga Meredith: last week I was having trouble with out of memory errors. Moved minecraft to another server. Switched to Yengine. Still getting errors. Would increasing ScriptStackSize and ScriptHeapSize help? What values? I've got RAM to burn. 64bit Win 10
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: depends on the errors.. we can't guess :p
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, good question. I've had a region with thousands of scripts but never needed to change those settings.
[11:47] Gavin.Hird last time I tried Roth it gets oversize thighs and tiny hands on the male avatar
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: How long does it take before the region throws an out of memory error?
[11:47] Gavin.Hird it looks completely out of proportions
[11:47] Jagga Meredith: Andrew coupel of hours
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Was there any script in particular that was added to the region before you started getting the out of memory errors?
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I would also suspect any scripts that originated from SL.
[11:49] Ada.Radius Roth2v2 has been out for a few months. Guys who want to look macho seem to like it - I consulted with quite a few lol
[11:50] Ada.Radius BUT depends on the viewer. It's tested on FS
[11:50] Gavin.Hird why would it depend on the viewer?
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: viewers impact macho level? :)
[11:50] Ada.Radius I don't know
[11:51] Ada.Radius well, obviously if it's a pre-Bento viewer it isn't going to work. I don't know why other viewers have not displayed the fingers correctly.
[11:51] Gavin.Hird there is a hidden macho debug setting
[11:51] Ada.Radius haaa
[11:51] Gavin.Hird did you know know about that?
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: or a pre mesh viewer :)
[11:51] Ada.Radius right
[11:52] Ada.Radius Ai Austin did all the testing. If it got past him, we released. Serie Sumai did the importing, boxing, scripting etc
[11:52] Jagga Meredith: Andrew not that I know of
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: see seems ll are going to change the jelly things
[11:52] Ada.Radius to what?
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: they will simplyfy them more
[11:52] Gavin.Hird if you test an avatar for correctness the best thing is to upload to SL and test with the SL viewer
[11:53] Ada.Radius ah OK
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: so they just look humanoid
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: guess ll is forgetting non humanoid uses
[11:53] Ada.Radius Ruth and Roth have always been meant for OS grids. I know people are using them iSL, but I haven't provided support for it. I think Austin has though
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, I think it more likely that a single script is doing something like growing a list continuously until it runs out of memory. I think you may need to a search to find out what script it is that causes the problem.
[11:54] Gavin.Hird since the SL viewer is the reference implementation for all the avatar and rigging
[11:54] Gavin.Hird it is the right too to use for testing
[11:54] Gavin.Hird whispers: tool*
[11:55] Jagga Meredith: just checked. my out of memory errror is NOT logging. Onscreen only. Lose the console prompt. Sometimes crashes completely and goes away.
[11:55] Jagga Meredith: Will check for errant scripts inworld.
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Disable the scripts in some of the scripted objects until the problem stops then re-enable the scripts of those scripted objects until the error reappears.
[11:55] Jagga Meredith: ok
[11:55] Ada.Radius boo hiss, and they suk. Why I spend a few hours a month deconstructing the Character xml files. Eventually the spaghetti will be sorted out and wound into nice yarn balls. Eventually we need an OS viewer that disregards LL's screwups
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: with yengine
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: about land does list scripts also
[11:56] Jagga Meredith: ok
[11:56] Gavin.Hird I am looking forward to your reference implementation Aada
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: that includes memory use
[11:56] Jagga Meredith: yep
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: you can see it here i think
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: well or not.. ive privs here ;:)
[11:57] Jagga Meredith: me no
[11:57] Ada.Radius Kayaker is working on the llm files, I am working on the xml files. We'll have to switch places at some point while I work on topology that works with the UV maps, the LOD and the morphs.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: well you can on yrs
[11:57] Jagga Meredith: ok
[11:57] Ada.Radius long term project, no funding.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: err that on 0.9.2
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: 0.9.1 does not have that script info on about land
[11:58] Gavin.Hird so meanwhile testing with the SL viewer will be the right thing to do to make sure it works on all viewers and not just one
[11:58] Ada.Radius I think Austin did that. My job was the Blender.
[11:58] Jagga Meredith: I'm runing 0.9.2
[11:58] Gavin.Hird The FS viewer is an godawful collection of code
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: you can't mess up the xml files
[11:59] Ada.Radius all the viewers are godawful re Character
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: they need to be identical on all viewers
[11:59] Ada.Radius well you should mess up the xml files - they're beyond incompetent
[11:59] Gavin.Hird and that is your opinion Ada ;-)
[11:59] Ada.Radius yup
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: ( i mean viewer avatar xml files )
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: yeah.. but need to be the same on all viewers
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... I just found the Script Info button in About land under latest FS. Is that size the size of all memory used (script + variables)?
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: or compatible
[11:59] Gavin.Hird there is something called backward compatibility with existing content
[12:00] Ada.Radius I've converted avatar_skeleton.xml to blender values and built armatures in Blender based on those values. I know that one well. It's um "flawed"
[12:00] Gavin.Hird and existing viewers and grids
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: not defending the xml files .. just that they need to the the same on all viewers :)
[12:01] Gavin.Hird exactly Ubit
[12:01] Ada.Radius don't see why we can't have both. Up to a point. Can't use mesh now, that was made for pre-Bento armatures, for example - it doesn't fit because LL changed avatar height.
[12:02] Gavin.Hird you probably can have both, but someone needs to both code it into the vieer and server to handle both, but more important render it
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: and who made those was not bad
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: the damm system is very flexible and extensible
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: petty ll does not seem to know it anymore
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: doing all that stupid mesh crap
[12:03] Gavin.Hird the limitation is the numbers of active bones on the current avatar is because of OpenGL and GPU limitations
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: guess they had to relearn a bit to do BOM
[12:03] Ada.Radius and never documented it in the first place. Mesh attachments were a bad solution to not dealing with the Character folder
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: yeah kayaker got a ll answer on that at a viewers meeting :)
[12:03] Ada.Radius BoM is cool, I like it. Closer to the way Unity handles it
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: ll just learns from other games
[12:04] Ada.Radius I'm wearing a Bom body right now, and BoM skirt.
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: all it is is simplifications of gaming models
[12:04] Ada.Radius the texturing is all in BoM laers
[12:04] Ada.Radius ya
[12:05] Ada.Radius AND despite wearing quite a complex avatar, my av complexity is less than 20K
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: and idea it is is old and not up to date is not that right
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: just we can't download 50GB of contents a AAA game has now can we?
[12:06] Ada.Radius nor should we
[12:06] Gavin.Hird we can, but be prepared for out of memory errors
[12:06] Ada.Radius I stay in OS because the shared flexiblity of the experience is better than Unity
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: not wiht my net :p
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: 50GB is several days lol
[12:06] Gavin.Hird ouch
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: very slow tps :)
[12:07] Gavin.Hird can we get Ubit a fiber connection?
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know how long it would take me to get that much data but that would be half of my monthly traffic allowance.
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: no idea when fiber gets here
[12:07] Jagga Meredith: start a fund for Ubit?
[12:07] Gavin.Hird GofundHim
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: all places around have it
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: not this damm hole
[12:08] Ada.Radius I want fiber too and I'm in the effing Bay area, across a small bay from Linden Lab. We live in an uncivilized world
[12:08] Gavin.Hird then you must move
[12:08] Ada.Radius to South Korea or Singapore, ya. Or the Netherlands
[12:08] Gavin.Hird I think you mean Banana republic?
[12:08] Jagga Meredith: it seems to be random. I'm in a crappy area of town. I've got fibre. Some Ritzy neighbourhoods still don't
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: offering yr home gavin?
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: No fiber in my area. I can get higher download speeds and unlimited traffic but it is like $40/month more than we are already paying.
[12:08] Gavin.Hird I have a spare room
[12:09] Ada.Radius it does seem to be random
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: MUST KEEP HEATING ON 356 DAYS!!
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:09] Kayaker Magic: Slumber party at Gavin's!!!
[12:09] Ada.Radius :)
[12:09] Gavin.Hird it is on 365 days
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: oops 365 also
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: and 1/4
[12:09] Ada.Radius ah I think he has at least two weekends of summer
[12:09] Jagga Meredith: never turn off furnace or put winter clothes away here. Snow every month
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are in a place that needs heat 365 days, move.  ;)
[12:10] Jagga Meredith: 30C temperature swings in one day
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: well thats a lot of places andrew
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:10] Gavin.Hird I have central heating and I use a whopping 29-45 kwh/month depending on which month it is
[12:10] Jagga Meredith: if you don't like the climate, wati 5 minutes
[12:10] Ada.Radius why I left northern New England, decades ago.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:10] Kayaker Magic: In norther California near the coast, I think it snowed twice in the last 30 years. Melted in 10 minutes.
[12:10] Gavin.Hird that includes hot water
[12:11] Ubit Umarov whispers: ofc in other places it is air cooling 365 days :)
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: ofc in other places it is air cooling 365 days :)
[12:11] Ada.Radius ya
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: We are past the hour. Any other questions for today?
[12:11] Gavin.Hird so my heating bill is usually in the order of $3-5 per month
[12:11] Jagga Meredith: nope
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: uff we never happy
[12:12] Jagga Meredith: gavin mine's 29
[12:12] Jamie.Jordan *•.¸'*•.¸ ★ ¸.•*´¸.•*
[12:12] Jamie.Jordan .•*★¨`• Aρρlɑuѕɛ •¨`★*•.
[12:12] Jamie.Jordan ¸.•*`¸.•*´ ★ `*•.¸`*•.¸
[12:12] Ada.Radius ty ty Jamie
[12:13] Gavin.Hird 29 is not much
[12:13] Ada.Radius and ty to all for great discussion. I got stuff to take away and use
[12:13] Gavin.Hird I think there is something wrong with the meter, but I am not going to tell anyone
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: 29-45 kwh/month ?? nust have good isolation
[12:13] Jagga Meredith: I'm on natural gas
[12:13] Ada.Radius Got to go, RL RL
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: damm good one :)
[12:13] Gavin.Hird houses here are built for cold
[12:13] Jamie.Jordan sorry wrong key :-)
[12:14] Jagga Meredith: the refinery's the other side of the river
[12:14] Pius Noel: ty all... there is always something new to learn here
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: even so 45kwh is nothing
[12:14] Gavin.Hird I agree
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: in heating
[12:15] Pius Noel: today it was at least that script info button :)
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: For me it was that script info button and MBLab.
[12:15] Pius Noel: MB lab too :)
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: just my pc and a tv is 200kwh per month
[12:15] Jamie.Jordan thanks everybody see you next week
[12:16] Jagga Meredith: hosting SIL's server. KVM rocks
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: As we are talking heat/cold I'm thinking there are no more OS questions for today. If that is the case I'll close the meeting.
[12:16] Pius Noel: cu next week
[12:16] Kayaker Magic: Buy all!
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: well a few lights.. and a few more things..
[12:16] Pius Noel: bye all
[12:16] Gavin.Hird this is not electricity. It is hot water for heating piped from a central boiler somewhere
[12:16] Pius Noel waves
[12:16] Selby.Evans bye everyone
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: no ill not buy anything !
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: That will do it for today. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:16] Jagga Meredith: ttfn
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: cya ppl leaving
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I can't afford all.
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Jagga

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