Chat log from the meeting on 2021-01-26

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[10:57] Kayaker Magic: Welcome back Selby!
[10:57] Selby.Evans hi everyone --
[10:57] Gavin.Hird Hi all
[10:57] Selby.Evans recovering
[10:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[10:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Bill. wb, Selby.
[11:00] Ada.Radius Hi Jagga
[11:00] Gavin.Hird Hi Ada
[11:01] Ada.Radius Hi Gavin, Kayaker, Bill. HEY SELBY welcome back
[11:01] Selby.Evans hi everyone --
[11:01] Gavin.Hird Hi Ubit, Jamie
[11:02] Kayaker Magic: hehe, a tabby cat wearing a leopard skin skirt!
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: hmmm
[11:02] Jamie.Jordan Hi everybody
[11:02] Ada.Radius lol ya, I'm working on a mesh Bakes on Mesh skirt for the critters. So far not working all that well
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jamie
[11:03] Ada.Radius but this is the Arcadia old Loli prehistoric outfit
[11:03] Ada.Radius Hi Jamie
[11:03] Selby.Evans Hi Jamie
[11:03] Ada.Radius Hi Ubit
[11:03] Gavin.Hird playing with the chairs Ubit :-))
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: Selby all good?
[11:04] Selby.Evans Recovering
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: good to see you back :)
[11:05] Selby.Evans ty
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: so andrew, whats up ?
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jagga.
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Not much new this past week. Just one change related to mantis 8854.
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Good to see Selby and Bill with us again today.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I still wonder what happened to Sheerah and hope they are ok.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Who wants to kick things off today?
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: yeah another c&p of code with bad effects that 8854
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Bill, recall that I had trouble compiling with Gloebits a few weeks ago? I went and got your version and had the same problem. Then I tried doing a 'clean' build and everything works fine now.
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: and ppl forget we didn't changed llPassTouches and passColisions to match new sl
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: i fail to see much sense on the new sl one
[11:12] Bill Blight: ahh, well may have just had some leftover files
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Did you try a clean build with the code you had before you got Bills version?
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: ( also a fight with dbs and oars etc )
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Pius
[11:13] Ada.Radius Hi Pius
[11:13] Selby.Evans hi Plus
[11:13] Gavin.Hird Hi Pius
[11:13] Pius Noel: hi all
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: Not exactly, but I switched back to the official version and it also built OK after the clean.
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: you do need those entries on inis kayaker
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: if not using bill's version ( that just stripped those options out )
[11:14] Bill Blight: yeah, the auto version detection is kind of flakey at best, totally broken at worst
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: I have the INIs on the running copies, my problem was I could not get anything to compile, running it was secondary!
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: with forks etc  it is just impossible to know the version
[11:16] Bill Blight: you have the ini settings in there to tell it to use the new version?
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: all change the version ids
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: ( not to mention that dev stays on same for ages.. but changing a lot )
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: I'm talking about building OpenSim from a clone of master, with no changes, not a fork.
[11:17] Bill Blight: regardless their version detection does not always work even on core
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: yeah but even so, that version detection fails, acording to bill :)
[11:17] Bill Blight: and it HAS to be told to use the new version of requests
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: They have version detection at compile time?
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: no kay... at runtime
[11:18] Bill Blight: I forget who we went through this with a while back
[11:18] Bill Blight: yes at runtime
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: just add the ini entries
[11:19] Bill Blight: GLBNewHTTPFlow = true
    GLBNewLandPassFlow = true
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: so and hwat other noews you bring andrew ?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: guess so many typos on a single line
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: No other news today.
[11:23] Jagga Meredith: last week we discussed moving change region to the region help instead of general help, or possibly both.  Looked at the code, not sure if both is possible.
[11:23] Jagga Meredith: m_console.Commands.AddCommand("General", false, "change region",
                                          "change region <region name>",
                                          "Change current console region",
[11:24] Jagga Meredith: does that just populate the help system or does it add a working command?
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, AFAICT, it would only need the string "General" changed to move it.
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: i you not say "we discussed".... you spoke about it, i quietly ignored :p
[11:24] Jagga Meredith: figured that, I was looking at the possiblity of both places
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: i would not say..
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:25] Gavin.Hird it went to /dev/null
[11:25] Jagga Meredith: heh
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:26] Jagga Meredith: so I take it "both" is not possible and "move" died on the table
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: I have a question about how OARs are built: do assets in an OAR come from the asset server or from the local asset cache?
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be easy enough to test whether it can be in two places. Just copy the call and change the one string.
[11:27] Jagga Meredith: I can dig it
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: they came from where they are kayaker
[11:29] Kayaker Magic: From the local region database?
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: that is a total guess fail :p
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: assets location is assets services,  with cache doing.. cache
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: exceptions are local assets, like dynamic textures
[11:31] Gavin.Hird I suppose the cache can be inconsistent or invalidated at any time, so better pull from an authoritative source
[11:31] Bill Blight: I have to bail early, RL calls, see you all next week ..
[11:31] Gavin.Hird TC Bill
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: well fetch asset follows normal code path
[11:32] Selby.Evans bye, Bill
[11:32] Pius Noel: bye Bill
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: so.. checks cache, then grid service
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: cya bill
[11:32] Jamie.Jordan later Bill
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: bye, Bill.
[11:33] Kayaker Magic: How are mesh stored on the asset service? as XML or some internal format?
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: sl mesh format
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: LLM format! The binary format!?
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: that is not the same you see on viewer for avatars
[11:34] Ada.Radius how is it different?
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: still another binary format
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: Why am I not surprised.
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: no morphs for example :)
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: has all LODs and physics on a single asset
[11:35] Ada.Radius are the morphs actually in the avatar llm files?
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: unlike those things for avatars
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: thats the only thing that uses morphs
[11:35] Ada.Radius I know, I'm asking where they;re stored
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: ok those llm yes
[11:36] Ada.Radius in your opinion
[11:36] Jagga Meredith: Will the code compile properly in visual studio - if not, recommended development environment?
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: what code?
[11:37] Jagga Meredith: opensim
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: vs is .net native IDE
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I use Linux so I just compile from the command line using msbuild.
[11:37] Kayaker Magic whispers: won't msbuild run from a DOS box on Wincows
[11:37] Kayaker Magic: ?
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: It should but I haven't tried building OS under Windows in a very long time.
[11:38] Jagga Meredith: ok will give it a whirl
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: need to ask winsheeps ppl they may know about wincows
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well and that cmd looks like DOS but it is not DOS for ages
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Still works enough like DOS for the most part.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: and yes.. you can use msbuild on cmd line, if you can find it
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: runprebuild.bat tries to find one and creates compile.bat
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: guess in win normal is just to use VS
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: at least i do :)
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a compile.bat script I used to use to compile under Windows that is dated December 2012.
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: It has the line -> C:\WINDOWS\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v3.5\msbuild opensim.sln /property:Configuration=Debug
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: That should give a hint as to how to find msbuild in Windows.
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: you need to runprebuild.bat
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: nahh
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: hit is to just get vs and use it
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: other wise you will get to install compile tools anyways
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: msbuild is not shiped with .net
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: well a old .net4 version may
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: buat that is outdated now
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't recall installing additional tools in Windows but that was about 8 years ago that I was last using it. IIRC, I needed to install the .NET framework files via some area of Windows Control Panel.
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: framework is other thing
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: own installers etc
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: then tools are other thing..
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: and visual studio another things ( that does install also a lot of other things )
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: We are getting close to the top of the hour.
[11:48] Pius Noel: are you using VS 2019 or 2017?
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, how goes things with getting your machine up and running again? Any news on the viewer front?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: well compiling tools... always a pain
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: i have both 2017 and 2019
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: but still use 2017
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: opensim does compile with 2019
[11:49] Gavin.Hird The replacement machine is supposed to be delivered to the pickup point by 16.00 CET tomorrow
[11:49] Pius Noel: I've seen but never tried
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: i mean also compiles with...
[11:49] Gavin.Hird I also repartitioned the disk of an old MBP and installed all the dev tools + Win 10 on it so I have made some updates to the Windows version
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: MBP?
[11:50] Gavin.Hird Installing Xcode 12.4 right now, which is another hurdle to get the mac version to build at all
[11:50] Gavin.Hird Mac Book Pro
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: ah
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: ahh got you box back?
[11:50] Gavin.Hird tomorrow
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: ahh you hope .. ok
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Good to hear you should be back up and running at full speed soon.
[11:51] Gavin.Hird it should be just to plug in the old HD and it should be good to go
[11:51] Gavin.Hird but we shall see
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: or not see ;)
[11:52] Gavin.Hird if the HD is zapped, I can restore from backup
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: The old machine ran Windows?
[11:52] Gavin.Hird sure
[11:52] Gavin.Hird all Intel Macs usually do
[11:53] Gavin.Hird Apple provides all the required drivers
[11:53] Gavin.Hird you do waht is called a bootcamp install
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Lets hope that WIndows can handle a MB swap if it was needed on that machine to get it back up and running again.
[11:54] Gavin.Hird I did not understand that?
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, bootcamp.
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: win does handle mb swaps...  just may asked you to pay a new lic
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: It's ok. I have never touched a Macintosh since the very first version Apple released.
[11:54] Gavin.Hird Windows is installed on a separate partition
[11:55] Gavin.Hird so from  Windows perspective it is just another Intel machine
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: yeah dual booting
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: My GF bought a mac without asking my advice first. I told her "sorry I cannot help you with your computer problems any more"
[11:55] Gavin.Hird hehe
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: we do that for ages with windows/linux etc
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. When I did a major upgrade to my computer I lost the ability to run Windows without re-installing it as it wouldn't handle the MB swap.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: well i did ages ago.. don't like
[11:56] Gavin.Hird Mac has had dual boot since ... 1987 when Apple Unix was introduced
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: i changed machines keeping the same windows on disk, several times
[11:56] Gavin.Hird it had a rather convoluted boot process to get Unix kickstarted from Mac OS
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: win always found the hardware changes and fixed all
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: that until ms decided to glue the lic to the MB and some hardware components
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Older versions of Windows couldn't tolerate certain hardware changes.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: i did update hardware just like that..
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: move the disk.. and boot it on the new harware :)
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I heard that Windows 10 has "fixed" that issue. I heard it can tolerate hardware changes.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: win has failsafe drivers dor everything
[11:59] Gavin.Hird Windows 10 might, but MS office...
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: ms apps are like virus :p
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: dammm office changed the entire os on install
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: nonsense
[12:00] Jamie.Jordan win 10 can i've done it
[12:00] Gavin.Hird I'll probabably have to call MS Support, wanting to kill myself 30 minutes into the call
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: well win10 has lics glued to hardware etc etc
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: if you change the cpu, ou need to buy another lic, possible
[12:01] Pius Noel: yes, it can depend on the lic
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: damm marketing bs
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: like those crippled home editions
[12:02] Gavin.Hird on the dev machine Windows runs in vmware virtual machines, so that should be OK; but the Office license is a Mac version and it will not like the HW change
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: that did not used all the cpu cores, or all ram.. bahh
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: ohh ms did forbid running their things on VMs, bc of that etc :)
[12:03] Gavin.Hird not any more
[12:03] Pius Noel: not anymore?
[12:04] Gavin.Hird vmware asks if I copied or moved it and just fixes it depending on the answer
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I use virtualbox to run Windows so I can run one program.
[12:06] Pius Noel: I think server licensing is so complicated... I stopped people who asks giving advice.
[12:06] Kayaker Magic: I have to clean my gutters (in RL) before the storm hits here in a few hours.
[12:06] Gavin.Hird If I had Exsi installed then it probalby would be much more picky about lisencing
[12:06] Kayaker Magic: Gota run!
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Kayaker.
[12:07] Gavin.Hird but Fusion is the same as Workstation and they recon you don't run prod on it
[12:07] Pius Noel: bye Kayaker
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: The snow has been coming down here for quite some time.
[12:07] Gavin.Hird it will snow tomorrow which could twart my machine delivery
[12:08] Jamie.Jordan thanks for the conversation everybody was fun
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Just hope the snow doesn't start until after your delivery, Gavin.
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: yw, Jamie. Come back any time.
[12:09] Gavin.Hird it is supposed to snow from the morning on, but with a language with about 420 words for snow, we can probalby handle it
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I hear ads on the radio about a nordic country with many words for snow.
[12:09] Gavin.Hird ... it has snowed here before
[12:09] Gavin.Hird that is Norway
[12:10] Gavin.Hird we have the most words for snow of any country :-)
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I think it was a country with a name starting in S that had lots of words for snow but not as many as 420.
[12:10] Gavin.Hird Sweden does not have as many as we do
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I see enough snow where I am. I wouldn't want to live in a country that needs that many words for it.
[12:11] Gavin.Hird the weather in Sweden is less harsh as they have a very protected coastline in comparison
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope you get your delivery ok tomorrow.
[12:12] Gavin.Hird Norway has the full force of the North Atlantic or Barents
[12:12] Gavin.Hird we shall see
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at quarter past the hour. Any last minute OS related questions/comments for today?
[12:12] Pius Noel: I whish you good luck
[12:13] Selby.Evans Must go -- bye all
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Selby. tc.
[12:13] Gavin.Hird thx
[12:13] Gavin.Hird bye Selby
[12:13] Pius Noel: by Selby
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: That will do it for another week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

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