Chat log from the meeting on 2021-01-19

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[11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: might do it tomorrow
[11:01] Jagga Meredith: what's it do?
[11:01] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: can only buy it iSL, but I still get an allowance from LL, weirdly, so I had the Lindens
[11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is like avastar, but with a different focus
[11:01] Jagga Meredith: ah
[11:01] Chat Logger: Meeting chat logging has been enabled.
[11:01] Chat Logger: You can view the log at: https://web.youcantfixstupid.wtf/outreach/index.php
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I noticed you have to pay it in SL, but that's OK
[11:02] Pius Noel: hello everybody
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: YES. and as Avastar hasn't really adapted to Blender 2.8 and beyond - male avatars still borking, I'm looking forward to it.
[11:02] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Pius
[11:02] Jagga Meredith: hi andrew, pius
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: What is like avastar?
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Pius, Jamie
[11:02] Jagga Meredith: Bento Buddy
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bento Buddy
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Where does one find that? I know some people who may be interested.
[11:03] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hey Jamie! Any word on Selby?
[11:03] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: SL Marketplace
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL Marketplace
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: What's with Selby?
[11:03] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Welcome to Jamie, find a barstool and a beer :)
[11:04] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Selby has been ill, will be OK.
[11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the sound of Kayaker
[11:04] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hey Kayaker
[11:04] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: have been told he'll be back online around the 25th
[11:04] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: excellent
[11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok, I am sorry to hear he has been ill
[11:04] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi all
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: good he is getting well
[11:06] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: he's ok just a small inconvenience
[11:06] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: One of my New Years resolutions is to get better at texturing, so I've been learning Substance Painter, no time for Bento Buddy yet. And I've been working on Chris Mooney-Singh's Singapore Arts Council project, video just released
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks for the update on Selby. Look forward to seeing him again.
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Substance Painter is not ideeal for OS/SL texturing, but it sort of works
[11:08] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: of course i'll be poping in here with him from now on i hope
[11:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: It actually does work - AFTER I took a bunch of tuts on exporting textures. Can get AO, Normal, Specular, Diffuse maps out by making a new preset
[11:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: it took a few tries...
[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll give Bento Buddy a shot while waiting for my dev machine
[11:09] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: but now I have some new vocab - dithering, and I forget already the other term for padding the UV islands
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I passed on the information about it to some people who could use it.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, one person was trying to use Avastar but had to downgrade their version of Blender in order to use it.
[11:10] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya to a couple of years ago old Blender. suks. From the few frustrating conversations I had at the Avastar Discord channel, no one there really knows how to do the re programming
[11:11] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: nor actually understands the viewer Character files. They did a few years ago, so I'm assuming the Gaia team has changed
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to find out a bit about updating old scripts. I have a couple of Blender plug-ins for generating objects I would bring in to SL but they don't work with 2.91
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: SL/OS
[11:12] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: that would be great.
[11:12] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: The universe needs more python scripters
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: It is a language I find interesting.
[11:13] Pius Noel: I dont like python
[11:13] Jagga Meredith: never really looked at it
[11:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: It's what Blender uses
[11:13] Pius Noel: yes it is and I used it a few years ago for prototyoing
[11:13] Bill Blight: the last avastar I have works with 2.81
[11:13] Pius Noel: -o+p
[11:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: 2.81 works updating forward to 2.91 OK
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In my language, if we say something is pyton (python) it is really bad
[11:14] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: 2.79, not so much, though we can append from the older files OK
[11:16] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: My brain works OK in 3D virtual space OK, not at all with the left to right coding lines, so I'll need to find a python programmer if I'm to develop plugins for Blender, lol
[11:16] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: so I won't
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: The rock generator I have was written for Blender 2.68 so it is in serious need of updating.
[11:16] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya
[11:17] Bill Blight: python and lua are both like my kryptonite
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi steevi
[11:17] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: the new Blender interface rocks except for a couple of bugs in weight painting that come and go with each release
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: I have a question: I see the order that INI files are read when I start OpenSim, but it doesn't mention Regions.ini. When is that read, and can it access macros defined in the [Const] section of OpenSim.ini?
[11:17] steevithak x: howdy
[11:18] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi steevi
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, steevithak
[11:18] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kayaker brings us back on topic...
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I just wondered about writing scripts for OS using Python. ;)
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: regions.ini is other thing
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: no relation to main ini files
[11:18] Bill Blight: regions module is loaded when the regions module loads which should be last and loads in it's own module that can't read global [Const]
[11:19] Bill Blight: or what Ubit said
[11:21] Jagga Meredith: Found some stuff missing/inconsistent in help I'd like to submit patches for rather than going the Mantis route. How do I submit and where is code for help system eg. "help regions"?
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, what settings were you thinking about using in Regions.ini?
[11:22] Bill Blight: Patches/Feature requests need to be submitted via the mantis
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, which help?
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is there any help??
[11:23] Kayaker Magic: There are things like port number and region name I would like to pass back and forth.
[11:23] Jagga Meredith: ok
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, ok.
[11:23] Jagga Meredith: opensim console commandline help
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, that help information.
[11:25] Jagga Meredith: eg "change region" is missing
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Mantis is the way to submit patches. People have submitted patches via the mailing list in the past but would then be redirected to mantis so the issues and patches don't get lost.
[11:25] Jagga Meredith: ok. hint as to where code is?
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Development#Source_Code_Repository_Access
[11:26] Bill Blight: Region (Dev Outreach) # help change region

change region <region name>
Change current console region


Region (Dev Outreach) #
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, which version of OpenSim are you using?
[11:27] Jagga Meredith: yup, but it's not in "help regions" so you ahve to know it's there to know it's there
[11:28] Bill Blight: ahhh ok
[11:28] Jagga Meredith: 0.9.2
[11:29] Jagga Meredith: latest from the website
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: The command is added in the OpenSim/Region/Application/OpenSim.cs
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: file.
[11:30] Pius Noel: from the Home page? That's 0.9.1.1
[11:30] Kayaker Magic: I got a listing of all the help commands, cut it out, pasted it in a file, search for commands I need.
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: I seem to recall noticing the function was not in the help output a while back.
[11:31] Jagga Meredith: 0.9.2.0 Yeti dev
[11:31] Bill Blight: on the home page there is a link to nightly autobuilds ..
[11:31] Bill Blight: 11:28:25 - [LOGHTTP]: Slow SRestObjectRequest 3769 POST http://assets.osgrid.org:80/assets/ took 3112ms, 95bytes
[11:31] Bill Blight: oops
[11:31] Bill Blight: hehe
[11:31] Bill Blight: http://opensimulator.org/dist/OpenSim-LastAutoBuild.zip
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is not from the website but from the dev repository
[11:32] Jagga Meredith: oh ok
[11:32] Bill Blight: it is right under "Current Release" Labeled "Test package"
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would not development package be better?
[11:33] Bill Blight: the autobuild is for people who can't/don't want to, compile thier own
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: test package sounds like something to test the above with
[11:34] Bill Blight: not if you actually read the text
[11:34] Bill Blight: "A binary package automatically built from latest development code can be downloaded as"
[11:34] Bill Blight: "A binary package automatically built from latest development code can be downloaded as

OpenSim-LastAutoBuild.zip
Note that this is code in current development. It can occasionally be bad, so use with care.
Backup your regions, (grid,) and databases before any update, in particular to this test code.
Use the provided ini files examples to create your own. Do not use older ones
It is compiled in Release mode, as future OpenSim releases will be. This may make debug a bit harder.
Source code can be found at OpenSimulator source code repository"
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, I remember what happened. The "change region" command is in help. It just isn't in with the other region options where one would expect to find it. It is to be found in Help General. I complained about that once before.
[11:34] Jagga Meredith: gotcha
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It can occasionally be in ooops status
[11:35] Jagga Meredith: *whines* well, I wanna fix it
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: ooopd status :p
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: oops...
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ;-)
[11:36] Bill Blight: well, there will be no Autobuild if the code does not actually build, so it is just a touch better for peeps that don't know how to compile
[11:36] Bill Blight: where the dev code can be downloaded in "unbuildable" state
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, You or Melanie gave me some reason why "Change region" is in the general section instead of in the Regions section but I don't remember what was the reason.
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: no idea andrew
[11:37] Jagga Meredith: put in both?
[11:37] Bill Blight: I think I remember something about it not actually being a "region command" it is a server console access command
[11:37] Bill Blight: it does not actually affect the region, but where the console is
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the thing is it can build, but still be in oops status
[11:38] Jagga Meredith: Intuitively I wouldn't think to look in general help for something relating specifically to dealing with regions
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, I agree. That is why I couldn't find it one time when I was looking for it.
[11:38] Bill Blight: I'd agree, but I can see the underlying logic
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: well as bill said is is not a region comand
[11:38] Pius Noel: a devs point of view
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: but well details..
[11:39] Jagga Meredith: yep, but I'm primarily a user
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm both.
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: More user than OS developer though.
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: no matter what you do, you always need to dig around help when you need somethig
[11:39] Jagga Meredith: and it's in the "region" section of the wiki
[11:39] Bill Blight: I'm thinking it might be something you actually want to think "twice" about, so maybe a good thing
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: It may not be a region command but it is region related.
[11:39] Bill Blight: so you are not messing with the wrong region
[11:40] Bill Blight: I see both sides, so , I have no strong opinion either way
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: yes i keep loading tst oars on the wrong region :p
[11:41] Kayaker Magic: So put it in both places in the documentation
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: When I have three regions in one OS instance on startup I am in region (root). No idea what it considers root. The first thing I'd want to do is change region. As a user I would go to the regions section of help as the first place I'd look.
[11:41] Bill Blight: (one of the reasons, I don't run multiple regions in an instance, don't want one instance to kill more than one region when I screw it up)
[11:42] Bill Blight: region root affects all regions in the instance as far as global region commands go
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I don't do that for grids. I just do that to keep things a little simpler when I'm testing using my standalone.
[11:42] Pius Noel: what happened to me recently
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: I've noticed that when I am set to region (root), if I type 'generate map' it generates the map for all the regions in the instance.
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: That could be worse than just being set to the wrong region.
[11:43] Bill Blight: Personal Opinion, multiple regions per instance, is asking for trouble, and just inviting you to screw it up ...
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, About the only thing I do at the command line level is load on OAR.
[11:44] Bill Blight: still, on a wrong region, bam, screwed up
[11:44] Bill Blight: or crash one region, all go down
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: I like to leave map generation off and only ask for it at the console once in a while.
[11:45] Bill Blight: there are many problems caused by running multiple regions per instance, that people just blame on other things
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: No big deal. It is just my test area.
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: No one else has access to it.
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I find running multiple regions per instance generally works pretty good
[11:46] Bill Blight: one bad script, kills multiple regions, HG gets confused sometimes, YEngine definitely works better on single instance, there is also a point of diminishing returns on having all in one instance, especially if multiple vars
[11:46] Bill Blight: but I'll climb off my soapbox now
[11:47] Jagga Meredith: however, running multiple regions is doable, hence the need to fetch the "change region" command
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I only have vars in separate regions
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: instances*
[11:48] Bill Blight: yes but you would be a minority in that respect Gavin,
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can see that
[11:48] Bill Blight: I have see people with upwards of 100 regions running in one instance and they wonder why they have issues
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 12-ish seem to be the magic number
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I've never run more than 9 normal size regions in one instance and that was years ago. 100 in a single instance is ridiculous.
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: after that it goes downhill
[11:49] Jagga Meredith: I'm running 2
[11:49] Bill Blight: It is a good "beginner" thing but it does not scale well , to have multiple regions in an instance ..
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Is "change region" staying put, moving to the Regions section, or appearing in both places?
[11:50] Jagga Meredith votes "both"
[11:50] Bill Blight: (to me it is the old, "Drive it like you stole it" mentality, why test in a way that you would not actually use it. Or in a way that would get the best performance. But that is just me.)
[11:51] Kayaker Magic: Another subject: I had someone ask me why llReturnObjectsByOwner (and by Id) don't work. I see they were never implemented. Any good reason for that?
[11:51] Bill Blight: easier to do it from the viewer maybe?
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: They had a rental property script from SL that did the object returns automatically when someone stopped paying.....
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: I could borrow the code from Halcyon and submit it as a patch to OpenSim.....
[11:53] Bill Blight: Oh I can see the usefulness , certainly , just was my first thought why it never got implemented
[11:53] Kayaker Magic: (the code for llReturnObjectsByOwner is there in Halcyon)
[11:53] Bill Blight: maybe because group perms are/were such a mess , is a possibility too
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: that is limited use really
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, the documentation makes it look hella hard to figure out permissions
[11:55] Bill Blight: and something pretty easy to screw up
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I once saw the effect llReturnObjectsByOwner had on a build which was coollectively created by multiple users
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not a pretty sight
[11:55] Jagga Meredith: ouch
[11:56] Bill Blight: oh the agony
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: yeah guess ill not touch that
[11:57] Bill Blight: maybe we need a osReturnParcelObjects() with maybe an owner ID as a parameter
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: parcels renting is so a sl model...
[11:57] Bill Blight: or just leave it at everything on the parcel
[11:57] Kayaker Magic: Gavin: I'm wondering if the origin of the word "piton" for a climbing spike you bet your life on has any relation to your word pyton.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: well and that can be very slow
[11:58] Jagga Meredith: do we want to change its classification on the wiki? it's currently (i)
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the origin of the word pyton is the snake
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so when something is pyton it is as bad as an encounter with such a snake
[11:59] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: pythons are lovely creatures
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:00] Bill Blight: added "No Plans to implement at this time" to the comment on those two functions
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: yeah some have them as pets
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: till they do grow :)
[12:00] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: (and you thought I wasn't paying attention)
[12:00] Jagga Meredith: thanks
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just like the cute gator babies
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: police found onq here also recently
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: the poor thing lokd happy to see the police and beening captured :)
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, you could have changed the classification at the same time to that of "Not implemented".
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks for adding the note.
[12:02] Bill Blight: I did Andrew
[12:02] Bill Blight: just had not finished saving the page
[12:02] Bill Blight: changed it to "Not Supported"
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Problem with caching in Opera. The colour appeared on a forced refresh.
[12:02] Jagga Meredith: thanks
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any questions/comments from anyone who may have to leave soon?
[12:04] Jagga Meredith: (reminder - there's a motion on the table)
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: what table?
[12:04] Jagga Meredith: re: help
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Earthquake?
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: well with this talk all remember change region now.. no need for help... prog solved
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: prob..
[12:06] Jagga Meredith: [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Is "change region" staying put, moving to the Regions section, or appearing in both places?
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: We aren't quite that formal. I had asked for feedback. As someone else has run in to the issue as I once did I think it should be moved. It is probalby not a common issue as people are discouraged from running more than one region per instance.
[12:06] Jagga Meredith: I'm an old man. I don't remember if I had breakfast
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:07] Bill Blight: Who are you people, where are we????? Where are my pants???
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, just keep your camera pointing above your waist. ;)
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: yeah typical billl
[12:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I rememberered. Dilation increases the texture beyond the edges of the UV island. Dithering 8 bit, 16 bit etc, averages the edges so they're less pixelated.
[12:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and I'm only 70
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:10] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: a little knowledge, dangerous
[12:10] Kayaker Magic: I did not have breakfast! And now it is lunch time!
[12:11] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yup. I'm gonna go eat some.
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:11] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Next week sailors! bye bye bye
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, we will be concluding this meeting soon so you can go eat.
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is 9:11 PM here so no more eating today
[12:11] Pius Noel: bye Ada
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Bye, Ada.
[12:12] Kayaker Magic: Gee, thanks guys!
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything more for today?
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: oh no late night snak etc?
[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not even that :-))
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Probably wise.
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: As there is nothing further for today I will conclude as usual by saying thank you for coming. See you again next week.

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