Chat log from the meeting on 2020-07-14

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[11:02] Grid: Teleport completed from hop://
[11:02] Grid: The region you have entered is running a different simulator version.
Current simulator: OpenSim Yeti Dev 10:10:12 07-14-2020 (Unix/Mono)
Previous simulator: OpenSim Yeti Dev b598573f41: 2020-05-22 16:55:20 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:02] Telehub: Welcome back to, Dev Outreach, Andrew Hellershanks.
**During meethings, all chat is logged.**
[11:02] Bill Blight: Ahhh Andrew's cat must have gotten the message ...
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: well and never tested altitude changes
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: also bc there is nothing i can do.. its viewer side check and change
[11:03] Ada Radius: Hi Andrew
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks waits for his chair to appear
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: well not wl viewers.. but will not add those checks
[11:03] Gavin.Hird Hi Andrew
[11:03] Bill Blight: when things slow down a bit, I'll make a parcel and some sky platforms at altitude
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03] Bill Blight: Howdy Andrew
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Good to see you again, Bill.
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: 2 lazy to test :p
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome, Jagga.
[11:04] Jagga Meredith: hi
[11:04] Ada Radius: I doubt if anyone here is lazy. Differing priorities, yes.
[11:04] Bill Blight: No no .. Ubit is lazy ...  :P
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Programmers are lazy by nature. :)
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: nahh im lazy by nature
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:05] Ada Radius: heh
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: ohh why is ppl going to my test region now ?
[11:05] Natasha.Thiebaud Hello :)
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Natasha
[11:05] Gavin.Hird are they?
[11:05] Ada Radius: Hi Natasha
[11:05] Bill Blight: Greetings
[11:05] Natasha.Thiebaud ty
[11:05] Gavin.Hird Hi Natasha
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: duhhh lazy and silly
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: forgot that my test region is there in view range Duhhh
[11:06] Bill Blight: Just an FYI, I have outreach checking for updates auto again, except 2 hours before and after the meeting, it sends a region notice when it is going to update ..
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: so experience with c# jagga ?
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Good to know. No more updates kicking us out in the middle of a meeting. :)
[11:07] Natasha.Thiebaud is covid here too ? i mean , masks are required ? )
[11:07] Jagga Meredith: more C.
[11:08] Bill Blight: Covid-64 the computer virus
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: yeah that ubit guy now and then did commits in midlde of meetings
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: then rushed ask bill to stop the update :p
[11:08] Jagga Meredith: I u nderstand C#, just haven't had much chance to use it
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Natasha, we can use every other chair if you are worried about distancing. :)
[11:08] Jagga Meredith: *sneezes*
[11:09] Natasha.Thiebaud ok now i am safe
[11:09] Natasha.Thiebaud )
[11:09] Jagga Meredith: *coughs and hacks*
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Who wants to get us started today?
[11:09] Ada Radius: no jokes, I actually have Covid-19 iRL.
[11:10] Natasha.Thiebaud by the way to see yoru usernames on here, i needed press twice trim option in viewer preferences
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: think you where going to start
[11:10] Natasha.Thiebaud unless i saw only unknown names
[11:10] Jagga Meredith: oh, sorry
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, sorry to hear that. Hope it doesn't get too serious.
[11:10] Bill Blight: uggg that sucks
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: well i do wear a mask here, just in case :P
[11:10] Ada Radius: :) It's OK, they have to be good jokes is all ROFLLLL
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: but going ok with it?
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:10] Ada Radius: I lived. It's a long term recovery. Damage.
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: well about meeting..
[11:11] Bill Blight: I'd not know if I got it, I'd be dead ... (immune system still not up to normal levels)
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: code changes..
[11:11] Jagga Meredith: having a weird bug on a grid. not sure what they're running for code. intermittely when you right-click an avatar and select profile, you get yours instead of theirs. what module would that be in?
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: not much
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: im just having a fun fight with c#
[11:11] Ada Radius: I have crap for immune system, you might live too.
[11:11] Bill Blight: if you are in god mode, you will see your own profile
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: and its "fun" features
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: fun as in plain stupid
[11:12] Bill Blight: if you click them and get an attachment
[11:12] Jagga Meredith: aha!~!!
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I noticed that Ubit has been working on environment related code changes. I thought I saw a reference to being able to have it generate rainbows, or was that done through some other technique.
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: think i finaly found why LBSA was hitting 20GB of memory usage
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: wel at least i hope
[11:13] Gavin.Hird why was that?
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: fun crap things
[11:14] Gavin.Hird in code or in-world?
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: use of Action delegates creates static objects that hold references foe ever
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: a fun memory leak
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: perfect legal and correct code == big memory leak
[11:15] Gavin.Hird Just an update tot eh Apple ARM transition: there will be no support for discrete GPUs
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Not good, but good that you found it.
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: well it is a problem
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: all new apis are based on Action
[11:16] Gavin.Hird there GPU will be on-chip, share memory with the CPU and is a tile based GPU which is very unusual
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: or many new apis
[11:16] Gavin.Hird LL getting nervous about it
[11:16] Jagga Meredith: how will athat affect us? I don't think we're tiled
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: gavin, macs are consumer toys
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: rich consumer toys
[11:17] Gavin.Hird basically the entire viewer will have to rewritten in Swift
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Swift?
[11:17] Gavin.Hird because the Metal frameworks more or less only work with swift now, and swift cannot use any c++ code
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: ppl payed for a i5 that was there totally under power and thermal throtteling
[11:17] Gavin.Hird
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: so the toy could be thin, and the batery last
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: apple is just mirrors and smoke
[11:18] Ada Radius: what language is the system avatar mesh written in?
[11:18] Jagga Meredith: so I need to learn a 17th language?
[11:18] Gavin.Hird the avatar mesh is defined by dae and xml
[11:19] Ada Radius: ya, but the mesh itself is in some kind of maching language
[11:19] Ada Radius: machine
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: on viewers own sl mesh format
[11:19] Gavin.Hird the viewer is written in c++ and opengl
[11:19] Ada Radius: so, c++. ty
[11:19] Gavin.Hird the entire UI is based on an opengl library
[11:19] Gavin.Hird not supported on the new Apple HW, so that will have to be completely rewritten too
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, the mesh is just a data file.
[11:20] Ada Radius: I know. I need to read that data, or find a programmer who can.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: libomv has a tool to decode those files
[11:20] Ada Radius: ty!
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: fear half broken
[11:20] Ada Radius: It would be better if all the avatar code was in dae/xml?
[11:21] Gavin.Hird it is generated code
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: If it hasn't changed location,
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: andrew
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: we do not use that
[11:21] Selby.Evans hi everyone
[11:21] Gavin.Hird from a model exported to dae and imported to the grid
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: gezz
[11:21] Ada Radius: Hi Selby!
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby.
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: well we are talking about system avatars right?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: no DAE on those
[11:22] Bill Blight: Howdy Selby
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, right. That was the old version.
[11:22] Ada Radius: OK, that's good to know. I assume originally a Maya dae set of files. several of which, for each body part, the LOD, and the rest the morph targets
[11:22] Gavin.Hird the system avatars are also modelled in Maya as is all LL provided content
[11:22] Ada Radius: system avatars yes
[11:23] Ada Radius: ya. Blender is better, easier to handle software upgrades
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: and cheaper :P
[11:23] Ada Radius: plus a whole lot cheaper, even if you have to find a python programmer to do plugins
[11:24] Ada Radius: so how was it generated from the dae files?
[11:24] Bill Blight: dae should die ... just my personal opinion ...
[11:24] Ada Radius: @Bill - what would you replace it with?
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: There was another program for creating mesh avatars but that project got abandoned.
[11:24] Bill Blight: GLTF
[11:24] Ada Radius: ah. yes. OK
[11:24] Ada Radius: also doable in Blender
[11:24] Jagga Meredith: *googles MAYA - faints*
[11:25] Gavin.Hird you can make avatars in any modeller that can rig and export to dae
[11:25] Ada Radius: I didn't faint, I did get angry...
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, it is a program often used by people making movies.
[11:25] Jagga Meredith: ah ok
[11:25] Bill Blight: well you can make avatars in anything, and rig them in another
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: ( llm files )
[11:25] Natasha.Thiebaud by the way, is opensim Dev team interested in a patch that alows to display profile pics using LSL ?
[11:25] Ada Radius: Yes. The armature system for defining bones is different in Maya than Blender. I managed to do a conversion in Blender, which is when I found the bugs in avatar_skeleton.xml
[11:25] Bill Blight: (any, meaning any 3d program , mostly)
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: ( like avatar_lower_body.llm )
[11:26] Jagga Meredith: I'd like that
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: that contains the mesh, morphs etc etc
[11:26] Bill Blight: Avastar is still pretty nice
[11:26] Ada Radius: yes. if I could decode the llm files, I'd have a shot at making new mesh that was compatible.
[11:26] Gavin.Hird Rememer Maya is the reference implemenations
[11:26] Ada Radius: an old version of Maya...
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: don't we have a patch for that waiting?
[11:26] Natasha.Thiebaud Hallo i asked about something, are you interested or not ?
[11:27] Jagga Meredith: I am
[11:27] Natasha.Thiebaud 3 years ago i made such a trick i based it on llreqestdataprofile thing
[11:27] Gavin.Hird Maybe do a rebake Natasha, you are rather cloudy
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: as i said libomv has a half done tool to real llm
[11:27] Bill Blight: Post your patch to the mantis for others to look at ... But the issue is not everyone uses core profiles, but would still be nice
[11:27] Gavin.Hird Selby too
[11:27] Ada Radius: @Natasha - you mean use the same profile pic in OS that we have stored in SL?
[11:28] Ada Radius: I see Selby and Natasha fine in my viewer
[11:28] Natasha.Thiebaud yes but you know Ubit i becoem impatient if i need to wait next fwe years ))
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: ( and the libomv we use is at )
[11:28] Natasha.Thiebaud yes same profile picture withotu using web tricks
[11:28] Bill Blight: I see everyone fine except natasha's face .. lol
[11:29] Ada Radius: ha I thought that was a mask
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: well ive a problem with profiles waiting
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: i did rewrite a lot of it back yeackk bad
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: they are just a total cpu/net eaters
[11:29] Kayaker Magic: Natasha's face just rezzed for me!
[11:29] Gavin.Hird you cleared up Natasha :-)
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: bc viewers ask about ALL friends profiles at login
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: fs by default, others as option
[11:30] Jagga Meredith: even from grids that don't exists
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: that is a HUGE spam
[11:30] Gavin.Hird it is Ubit
[11:31] Bill Blight: people don't delete people from their friends lists when a grid vanishes so it just keeps trying to talk to it ..
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: and i will need to give up caching them because od that
[11:31] Ada Radius: I'm not sure I want my different grid logins synced. I have uploaded the same profile for all, I think.
[11:31] Jagga Meredith: yup
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: or a region like LBSA will that the entire opensim community in memory cache :P
[11:31] Gavin.Hird you also have personal grids being available only part time
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: BAD.. just BAD
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: a faliled http takes ages
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: and must take ages..
[11:32] Bill Blight: it should try to access the grid url and if no answer give up till next relog
[11:32] Jagga Meredith: that would miss a kitely coming up
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: ann natacha,,, such thing needs to use the dataservice method
[11:32] Natasha.Thiebaud yes
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: or will kill the script engine
[11:33] Bill Blight: not really because it talks to grid services not regions
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: the http needs to be async
[11:33] Natasha.Thiebaud i used llReplaceDataProfileImage new function i made
[11:33] Natasha.Thiebaud llReuqest sorry )
[11:33] Natasha.Thiebaud and only problem with was with Bill grid
[11:33] Natasha.Thiebaud since he has secured
[11:33] Natasha.Thiebaud his profile srvice
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: even the osnotecard we have is bad, bad idea
[11:34] Bill Blight: I don't use core profile services on my grid ..
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: it was made to avoid the dataservice, but the dataservice IS needed
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: so the asset fecth does not block the script engine
[11:34] Bill Blight: (and I am going to be shutting my grid down BTW, just can't continue being financially strapped)
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: well ossl did got some bad things in time :p
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: :(
[11:35] Bill Blight: (not to mention stress level, my ticker can't take it ... LOL )
[11:35] Natasha.Thiebaud ah so if i am here, then i also ask about importal patch : llRequesrUserKey ))
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: i did started uisn c# async/await things
[11:35] Natasha.Thiebaud immortal*
[11:35] Gavin.Hird I understand that Bill
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: now i may just revert all that crap back
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: C# new things are just scary crap
[11:36] Natasha.Thiebaud Bill you were and mnayeb you are fan of my patch you were helping me with it, so how it comes, it is still out of core
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: tools should never be done by amatours
[11:37] Bill Blight: I'm not a core dev, just a whipping boy
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: and now a lot of .net is done by amatoues
[11:37] Bill Blight: :P
[11:37] Ada Radius: you mean we should all be getting paid for this stuff?
[11:37] Natasha.Thiebaud right ) but you cud vote on it or what
[11:38] Bill Blight: I actually like that patch but I think Ubit might have found issues, I don't remember, log has fogged my brain since then
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: ( the myth that opensource code is better.. is just that.. a myth.. most time it is just bad code )
[11:38] Bill Blight: lot*
[11:38] Natasha.Thiebaud yes Bill, but admit that process lasts years ))
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: ( yes i know that includes opensim :p )
[11:39] Bill Blight: the best things about opensource code, is also the worst things about opensource code
[11:39] Ada Radius: plenty of bad "professional" code out there. I agree that professional standards are a good idea. But amateur, in the definition of "doing it for the love of it" is OK.
[11:39] Jagga Meredith: I've seen nasty "professional" code. *whimpers*
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: at least tools that others depend on should be a lot better
[11:40] Bill Blight: bad code, did someone say Micro$oft
[11:40] Gavin.Hird such as in Intel processors...
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: sure many "pros" are bad also
[11:40] Jagga Meredith: don't start
[11:40] Ada Radius: agreed. Quality standards that are well defined and published.
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well im on a cross road
[11:40] Bill Blight: once a bad piece of code is accepted as the "NORM" it can take years to work around it ..
[11:41] Gavin.Hird what cross road Ubit?
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: revert all the new features i did add to safec c3.0 or so code.. or .. whaever
[11:41] Ada Radius: ya. e.g. LL
[11:41] Jagga Meredith: "but we've always done it that way"
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: that bug that did show up on .net4.8 is still around
[11:41] Bill Blight: I'm with you Ubit, what looked good on paper, does not function well in execution ..
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: i had to hack around it
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: JIT just fails to honour basic C# features
[11:42] Gavin.Hird the bug you needed mono 6.10 for?
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: its also on windows
[11:42] Gavin.Hird ah, ic
[11:42] Gavin.Hird then it is a feature
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: Action now creates static classes
[11:43] Bill Blight: of course one of the biggest issues with opensimulator in general is the various versions , keeping them talking to each other. Since we know how "often" people will accept NEW things. ..
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: that hold references for even
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: .. for ever
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: 20GB of those in lbsa case :p
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: and it is totally hidden
[11:44] Natasha.Thiebaud persoanlly for myself problem is: i have created toens of my patches and if Ubit makes another 100 patches withn fw days it is impossble to merge it in normal time, how you do that guys if you run yor brancches that are so far from main code ?
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: it is compiler/jit generated code
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: wel and let me not rant about GC crap :p
[11:45] Natasha.Thiebaud and that halts me from updatig to newer version = vision fo spednign weeks or months ot merge with ubit new code
[11:45] Bill Blight: my fork is about about 6 months behind now since my health issues ... I'm almost giving up on brining it in line with core, since ubit went on his EEP spree ...
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: sure opensim use is totally outside of "normal" code c# devs have in mind
[11:46] Natasha.Thiebaud so you share analogous opinion, Bil as myself
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: in fact the GC ones seem to only think about old android versions now..
[11:46] Bill Blight: well , that is the thing about opensim , it is a framework, devs/grids can choose to use as is , or patch it , but either way it is up to them to stay updated or not
[11:46] Gavin.Hird rewrite it server side swift since the viewer will have to be rewritten too ;-))
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: on a machine with 256GB of ram they tell to split a array in bits of no more than 80KB
[11:47] Natasha.Thiebaud but this way, the only updated eprosn is Ubit in 100% )) so there appears quesiton how to live :)
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: eprosn ?
[11:48] Natasha.Thiebaud person )
[11:48] Bill Blight: person
[11:48] Bill Blight: I read typnese
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:48] Bill Blight: typonese even
[11:48] Gavin.Hird typhonese
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: btw.. the inworld restart
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: that is a TOTAL fail
[11:49] Bill Blight: and has been for years
[11:49] Gavin.Hird since when Ubit
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: since ever
[11:49] Bill Blight: it has NEVER been a good idea
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: i did disable the console comand
[11:49] Natasha.Thiebaud cant you prepare parallel exe as monit works ?
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: not only opensim code was actually not done to suport that
[11:49] Gavin.Hird I noticed, but I wondered if it had deteriorated further because of all the recent canges
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: but .net fails to suport that also
[11:49] Gavin.Hird changes*
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: like those hiddend static things it creates
[11:50] Bill Blight: yest best way is to shutdown the process and restart it .. not a "live" restart
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: on c# we can't EVER clean a scene data
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: even if our code did it right, and it does not
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: Dan runs lbsa under a simple script
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: so inworld shutdown is a full restart
[11:52] Natasha.Thiebaud he sues monit or cron
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: bash script
[11:52] Natasha.Thiebaud yes
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:52] Bill Blight: I restart mine with a script also .. using a cron job for auto updates
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: nah he just uses a simple script
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: monit or other supervisor is another option sure
[11:52] Natasha.Thiebaud but how his simple script knows to start ?
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: I also use bash scripts to (re)start regions.
[11:53] Gavin.Hird I restart simulators when they stop colliding in bullet. that usually takes 4-5 days
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: wel its a simple script, but not mine, so ill not show it :)
[11:53] Natasha.Thiebaud :) his script needs to know when to start to run exe
[11:53] Natasha.Thiebaud or it scans >? every 60 seconds lol
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: nahh a lot simpler :)
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: ( linux only )
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: not sure how to do simiar on win
[11:54] Bill Blight: #!/bin/bash

if [ -z "$1" ];then


LAST_UPDATE=`git show --no-notes --format=format:"%H" $BRANCH | head -n 1`
LAST_COMMIT=`git show --no-notes --format=format:"%H" origin/$BRANCH | head -n 1`

git remote update > /dev/null 2>&1
if [ $LAST_COMMIT != $LAST_UPDATE ]; then
echo "Updating your branch $BRANCH"
git pull
<your update commands here>
echo "No updates required"
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: but i never played much with win scripts
[11:54] Natasha.Thiebaud ok
[11:55] Bill Blight: that is just the script that checks for new commits, I have other bash scripts that shutdown and restarts the region
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: btw we even have a module that does restarts
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: i didn't touch it.. just.. don't use it
[11:57] Bill Blight: and breaks stuff just as bad
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: as i said only way to restart opensim is to kill it and start a freahs instance
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: anything else is disaster to happen :p
[11:58] Bill Blight: and it is not a specific opensim issue, is is the fact that .NET/MONO never fully cleans resources on a soft restart
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: yeap as i said
[11:59] Natasha.Thiebaud by the way, in the past, you have added so called GridServices account. it is clear for what it is has been made, but you think it is safe ?
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: yeah as safe as a account is
[11:59] Natasha.Thiebaud i see, well ))
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: a god account..
[12:00] Natasha.Thiebaud right,
[12:00] Bill Blight: as long as you don't give it a password, nobody could log in with it anyway
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: ( note that i said "as" :not "is" :p )
[12:00] Natasha.Thiebaud i meant other thign if it coems to secure
[12:00] Natasha.Thiebaud i made a toy
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: i have extra check even
[12:00] Natasha.Thiebaud it is grid weapon
[12:00] Natasha.Thiebaud based on this account
[12:00] Natasha.Thiebaud you made
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:01] Natasha.Thiebaud ok ))
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: well i need that so grid can issue god comands to regjons
[12:01] Natasha.Thiebaud precisely
[12:01] Natasha.Thiebaud but personally
[12:01] Natasha.Thiebaud i wud do that in other 3way
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: if that is not safe, then no gods are
[12:02] Bill Blight: any account with god privs should be able to issue commands, via that user, should not have to access that account directly
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: gos can issue comands directly
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: don't need that account
[12:02] Bill Blight: yeah what I typed is not what I meant
[12:02] Bill Blight: LOL
[12:03] Natasha.Thiebaud i added other key andoher name
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: well i used irc knowhow on that :)
[12:03] Natasha.Thiebaud plus checks
[12:03] Bill Blight: should have said, "not via that user"
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: that is how grid with superbots work
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: chanserv, nickserv etc
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: those are users with ircop rights
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: at least in early implementations
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: "users"
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: ircds only seen a comand from a ircop..
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: same idea
[12:05] Natasha.Thiebaud one of my ideas, is, that every god power from withn viewer shud be logged in soem way
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: wel if any knows what a ircop is :p
[12:05] Bill Blight knows what an ircop is
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: or irc LOL
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: yeah you are old Bill
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: and connect on a irc network now :p
[12:06] Bill Blight: I also know what arpa net is
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: see Old :p
[12:06] Jagga Meredith: *was ON arpanet*
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: IRC still has its uses.
[12:06] Bill Blight: IRC is still very useful
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: it is
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: not that Discord bs
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: well more opensim news?
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: ahh
[12:07] Gavin.Hird
[12:07] Bill Blight: I turned on the IRC module, after fixing somethings, and had a IRC channel for each region again , for a while
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: i did fix the fixed skys assets eep viewers need
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: they worked.. but where of wrong type.. oops :p
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: osgrid is now updated, so the prim at lbsa can be used to update grids uinsg HG
[12:08] Bill Blight: Ubrokeit strikes again
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: the ones that already had them.. will need to delete them from assets first
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: or just update to 0.9.2 :p
[12:09] Bill Blight: That too
[12:09] Kayaker Magic: Required reading for IRC users:
[12:09] Bill Blight: my theater region has eep , so when you walk into the main theater room it gets darker, works great ...
[12:09] Bill Blight: (look to the south of here)
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: well some of that also works on WL
[12:10] Bill Blight: yep
[12:10] Natasha.Thiebaud two years ago, fly man wrote: llGodLikeRezObject is overruled by another function that only works by logging in with a special viewer. But that is not true, i have made it work and problem was rather in wrong config than in code of it
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: i made parcel crossings change WL enviroments also
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: just not altitude
[12:11] Natasha.Thiebaud it works with every viewer and it only neds attnetion of readign the code
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: well any viewer that does see wl changes
[12:11] Gavin.Hird can you m ake an option to turn off parcel WL on a region by region basis
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: singu currently does not
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: can't be turned off for epp viewers
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: so.. confusing option
[12:12] Gavin.Hird sure it can, just needs a bit more code added to the viewer to handle it
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: ( eep viewers detect the crossing alone and react )
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: and there is a estate option for that
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: just uncheck parcel owner can override...
[12:14] Gavin.Hird and it works?
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: puff parcels env gone
[12:14] Gavin.Hird for eep I mean
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: it is a eep option
[12:14] Gavin.Hird ok, good
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: u need a eep viewer to see it on the UI
[12:15] Natasha.Thiebaud last question: i has there appeared sort of road map Ubit in aspect of developing opensim ? i am asking because maybe you wud like other eprsons to do thigns that are in plans and not some isolated problems ?
[12:15] Gavin.Hird you need a viewer that expose the UI for it
[12:15] Bill Blight: I can vouch turning off the " parcel owner can override" works ... Or you can just manually set it in the db
[12:15] Bill Blight: parcel owner can override, is not on by default
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: road map? What is a road map?  ;)
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: like something not "go fix the next bug" road thing?
[12:16] Natasha.Thiebaud plan what to do )
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: or " lets break that other code"
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:16] Natasha.Thiebaud because i was tryign many times to offer sth, and i got disappointment, so maybe i was in wrong locations of code
[12:16] Natasha.Thiebaud and you wanted me
[12:16] Natasha.Thiebaud to deal with somethign other ?
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: well i do have some "road maps" about what im doing
[12:16] Natasha.Thiebaud i am tryign to explain it logically
[12:17] Bill Blight pictures Ubit looking at google maps , trying to find opensim
[12:17] Gavin.Hird unfotunately there are some external factors to the plan what to do called Apple., Microsoft, Linden Labs just to mention a few
[12:17] Natasha.Thiebaud so share it
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: like taking that http library out, making it low level opensim ocde
[12:17] Gavin.Hird unfortunately too often the what to do is scramble to keep up with the 3 mentioned
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: still more cleanup needed on that
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: and http server handling
[12:18] Bill Blight: road maps are like plans, they never survive first contact with the enemy (community)
[12:18] Gavin.Hird or reality
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: .. replace all crap XML things one day by a proper binary thing..
[12:18] Natasha.Thiebaud because actual way, only you offer ideas and rest must accet it ) and others wud like to offer help as well
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: i jusst don't like protbuf
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: a pain to use etc etc
[12:19] Bill Blight: only core developers can technically "help" everything else is suggestions ...
[12:19] Bill Blight: sadly
[12:19] Natasha.Thiebaud but core developer is huamn not alien race )
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: but on the http code i decided to update to the async/await model
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: not i have cold feet on that..
[12:20] Gavin.Hird not or now?
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: how much new .net bugs i got on that..
[12:20] Bill Blight: but core developers are the only ones that have access to actually help, and they have to be accepted by the gods on high
[12:20] Ada Radius: who are the gods?
[12:20] Natasha.Thiebaud i disagree )
[12:20] Bill Blight: You can disagree all you want, but try to push a commit and see what happens
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: (back to the opensim is not a democracy issues? )
[12:21] Natasha.Thiebaud i know what happens = nothing haah
[12:21] Bill Blight: right, so like I said, it is a "suggestion" unless you have access
[12:21] Natasha.Thiebaud one day i remind
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: well opensim core i mean
[12:21] Natasha.Thiebaud i was promised by oen eprson
[12:21] Natasha.Thiebaud person*
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: i did accept a few patchs from you :P
[12:21] Kayaker Magic: The WEB page has a process for how to become a core dev, it has catch-22's in it, nobody can ever become a core dev.
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: only refused a few..
[12:22] Ada Radius: So it's a disaster of an organization.
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: and have one or 2 "forgotten"
[12:22] Bill Blight nods at Kayaker
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: :P
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Any one can attach a patch file to a bug report in mantis for review and possible acceptance in to core.
[12:22] Gavin.Hird is it an organization even? :-)
[12:22] Ada Radius: probably not. Doomed, sounds like.
[12:22] Bill Blight: well not just bug reports, they can be flagged as feature requests and attach a patch
[12:23] Bill Blight: people have been saying it is doomed for years now .. Ubit is still kicking ...
[12:23] Natasha.Thiebaud well i say it in such a way, wghat happens in opensim when you Ubit retires or you will be missed ?
[12:23] Ada Radius: no one kicks forever, as you and I well know
[12:23] Bill Blight: it is the very definition of a dysfunctional family but yeah ..
[12:24] Natasha.Thiebaud maybe there should be set some thought to accept new persons in a case
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: opensimulator was created with very strange over optimistic ideas about humans
[12:24] Bill Blight: (I could rant about this forever and have before, but until the keys to the kingdom are shared , new people are shit out of luck)
[12:24] Ada Radius: gotta have a team for longevity. And sanity. Compromises, yes. If everyone is a bit unhappy then it's a success.
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: and now virtually impossible to change some of those "rules"
[12:25] Ada Radius: why
[12:25] Natasha.Thiebaud i think it is very easy to changem, it onyl needs good willing
[12:25] Bill Blight: well the one in charge of the rules does not even obey them ..
[12:25] Gavin.Hird does that mean it is unpossible?
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: well there is a rule that only active members have rights
[12:25] Bill Blight: can we say "White Rabbit" again ...
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: so.. well dunno
[12:26] Bill Blight: technically by the rules, Ubit you are the ONLY active member
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: yeah kinda :)
[12:26] Bill Blight: Anybody else submitted a commit in the last 6 months?
[12:26] Ada Radius: so you can change it.
[12:27] Bill Blight: the "keys to the kingdom" are the problem, Ubit does not have them ..
[12:27] Natasha.Thiebaud and who has keys ?
[12:27] Ada Radius: who does? and how to get them?
[12:27] Bill Blight: she who shall not be named
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, may be the only active member as far as making code changes.
[12:27] Natasha.Thiebaud lol
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: and im totally not focused on such issues
[12:27] Bill Blight: Andrew the rules say, if you have not submitted code in 6 months you loose your rights and are "chasing the white rabbit"
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks pushes that statement under the rug  :)
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: yeah there are a few we do consider active despite that rule
[12:28] Ada Radius: RuthAndRoth effort, much less essential than OS, had the same problem when Shin Ingen had to leave unexpectedly. Other people stepped up and regrouped, but there was damage. Some data lost forever. That will happen to OS, but its survival less certain.
[12:28] Natasha.Thiebaud i n my opinion commit that replaces letter A with letter B doe snot count
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: that would exclude andrew currently :p
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I became a core dev from being involved in OpenSim mostly unrelated to coding.
[12:29] Bill Blight points to himself, for being left out in the cold .. LOL
[12:29] Gavin.Hird some are by default active, even when they not are
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: opensim data is a bit more disperse
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: at least code
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: we have 3 repos for code
[12:29] Ada Radius: Kitely will be the last one standing, as I see it. Is that what you really want?
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: one manually updated :)
[12:29] Natasha.Thiebaud Andrew as you remind in 2016, 2017, i was very very active, was givng every fwe days a patch and what ? ))) so i want to know if it is worth to do anything ))
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: stop complaining.. you patchs acceptance rate was not bad :p
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: your..
[12:30] Bill Blight: You don't work on opensim to get something, you work on it because you love it .. if you want kudos, this is really not the place for you ..
[12:30] Natasha.Thiebaud i do not want to spend long nights on tests ))
[12:30] Natasha.Thiebaud ok Ubit )
[12:31] Ada Radius: no one here is looking for kudos. obviously
[12:31] Natasha.Thiebaud well i am european, maybe imaptient )
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: well for opensim standards :p
[12:31] Bill Blight: you don't even want to know how many sleepless nights and HOURS, DAYS I spent with ubit working on things ... (and I don't care about that) just saying, I do it because I love it ..
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Natasha, Good to know. However, I don't remember what was going on, or what I was doing, that many years ago. :)
[12:31] Gavin.Hird Ubit is European too
[12:31] Gavin.Hird and so am I
[12:31] Natasha.Thiebaud i know )
[12:32] Bill Blight: the most I have gotten for my effort was , threatened to be kicked out of IRC for not agreeing with "someone"
[12:33] Jagga Meredith: *ahem*
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: well someone wanted to kick me out of core also
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: details :)
[12:33] Bill Blight: and nobody at this meeting is that "someone"
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I might guess who that might have been doing the threat but that should happen.
[12:34] Bill Blight: yeah I remember that Ubit, I laughed for a few hours over that one
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: um... should not happen.
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheesh. Typos. :P
[12:35] Bill Blight: again this is the issue with one person having the "keys to the kingdom" and wielding them like a hammer
[12:35] Natasha.Thiebaud but who is ? you mean Melanie ?
[12:35] Ada Radius: So. If Ubit says he won't work on OS anymore, what will she who must not be named do?
[12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: One thing about working on open source projects is you need to learn to deal with differing personalities.
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: wel lets not go there
[12:35] Ada Radius: that's true in any project.
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: no need to go there today
[12:36] Bill Blight: Yes Andrew , agreed, but when one person has all the power there are few ways to compromise
[12:36] Gavin.Hird no it is Mylanta
[12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, true. There are often few that hold the keys in any project.
[12:36] Ada Radius: It was a hypothetical, said by those concerned about Ubit, who is in an impossible situation.
[12:36] Bill Blight: few, but not usually ONE
[12:36] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:37] Ada Radius: and (this is obvious to an outsider like me) not a competent ONE, in admin.
[12:38] Natasha.Thiebaud i simply saying would like to feel helpful and withotu it
[12:38] Natasha.Thiebaud i lose wiling to do anyhing
[12:38] Natasha.Thiebaud i clsoe myself in my room = grids
[12:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Before anyone starts coming to blows here it is over half an hour past our usual hour. Are there any last questions before we wrap up todays meeting?
[12:39] Natasha.Thiebaud and create patches that no one wil see
[12:39] Jagga Meredith: Having a problem outside of opensim code. My region is on server inside a router that doesn't support NAT hairpinning. Trying to find workarounds other than VPN. Done my googling but coming up short. So far have iptables and dnsmasq. Anybody have a hint?
[12:39] Ada Radius: no one is coming to blows. Everyone here is on the side of the angels.
[12:39] Natasha.Thiebaud :)
[12:39] Bill Blight: if your router does not support it, get a new router ... there is no good way to work around it ..
[12:40] Bill Blight: it is all a kluge to get around it, and not reliable
[12:40] Gavin.Hird I got an Edgerouter-X to solve the issue
[12:40] Jagga Meredith: ok
[12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Natasha, if you want people to see them, you can mention the work you are doing on the mailing lists and you can file a mantis with a patch or add a patch to an existing mantis.
[12:40] Gavin.Hird Ubiquity
[12:40] Bill Blight: I use a linux box , IpFire
[12:40] Gavin.Hird
[12:40] Natasha.Thiebaud i was doing it Andrew
[12:41] Bill Blight: Ubiquity makes great stuff
[12:41] Ubit Umarov: btw refused patchs are not deleted by us
[12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, having a single main active developer isn't a good situation and is something that should be addressed.
[12:41] Ubit Umarov: some can be useful for other people
[12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: I've had a single line patch refused. :)
[12:41] Bill Blight: it is not even the "One active developer" it is the fact, that "NOBODY ELSE HAS ANY LEVEL OF CONTROL"
[12:41] Natasha.Thiebaud ok sorry but got bad day when i removed my work i was stressed
[12:42] Ubit Umarov: i was not thinking about that.. :)
[12:42] Bill Blight: And the group does not even follow it's own rules ..
[12:42] Ubit Umarov: just telling :)
[12:42] Bill Blight: should replace the the whole rules thing on the site with , "Because they who shall not be named said so"
[12:43] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:43] Bill Blight: can you tell this is a sore subject with me ...
[12:43] Ubit Umarov: well and about more concrete opensim issues?
[12:43] Ada Radius: Some people think that hierarchical authoritarian structures are better than collegian, more democratic structures.
[12:43] Ubit Umarov: oh?
[12:43] Ubit Umarov: oops
[12:43] Bill Blight: LOL
[12:44] Gavin.Hird it depends on the situation
[12:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, :)
[12:45] Natasha.Thiebaud there cud be list announced on web and actualised evey wekk and ppl wud give problems and others coud solve them
[12:45] Bill Blight: umm
[12:45] Bill Blight: mailing list
[12:45] Ada Radius: There does need to be a team leader, for a healthy project, but that team leader has to 1) show up and 2) be accepted by most. If not, unhealthy, likely to die.
[12:45] Bill Blight: both dev and public
[12:45] Bill Blight: and the archive can be viewed
[12:45] Gavin.Hird Sweden handled Covid-19 in a collegian, more democratic structure, and llok where that got them. The surrounding countries did in a hierarchical authoritarian structure at governement level and did very much bettere
[12:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Part of the problem with reviewing code submissions is that it needs someone who knows the code base. I have too much on the go to spend time learning the deep innards of it so I am not in a position to judge whether a patch is going to add/fix a problem or break something.
[12:46] Natasha.Thiebaud yes Andrew
[12:46] Bill Blight: I have to run, dinner time ....
[12:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Lack of documentation is also an issue that makes it harder for new people to get involved.
[12:46] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bill. Enjoy your dinner.
[12:46] Bill Blight grumbles about the situation and poofs ..
[12:47] Natasha.Thiebaud See You Bill )
[12:47] Gavin.Hird Bon apetit Bill
[12:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Natasha, that would be one possible approach.
[12:47] Jagga Meredith: mee too. Excellent meeting. learned a lot
[12:47] Natasha.Thiebaud tell it please
[12:48] Jagga Meredith: I used to write documentation for a living
[12:48] Jagga Meredith: that's one thing making it difficult for me to grasp the code
[12:48] Andrew Hellershanks: We have been going for almost two hours. It is time to wrap it up for this week. Sorry if we got a little side tracked and you didn't get to ask a question.
[12:48] Ada Radius: I have to go too, RL is no longer patient. Thank you everyone! Most interesting and i did get valuable answers.
[12:49] Jagga Meredith: I did. got my answers
[12:49] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ada.
[12:49] Selby.Evans bye all
[12:49] Ubit Umarov: bye
[12:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye everyone. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:49] Gavin.Hird Bye Andrew

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