Chat log from the meeting on 2020-05-26

[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:05] Ada Radius: Hi Andrew
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: odd
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi Andrew
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Um... why is there something spitting out the letter t non-stop?
[11:06] Ada Radius: Ubit has nearly claimed responsibility
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: All the Objects that area search can find belong to Bill....
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: yeack don0t see it on lists
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: this was a test attachment
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless it is a worn object chatting
[11:08] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: i will leave the grid - please check it the t-noise is gone then
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: We should see the "sparkle" around the chatting object
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: well lets go to hurliman plaza again :)
[11:08] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: to ensure that i am not the orginator
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I just blocked the object and its quiet at my end.
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: i can't find it grr
[11:09] Ada Radius: Who is wearing stuff with scripts?
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: its s stuck prim somewhere
[11:09] Arielle Popstar: oh ok, that did it
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: took off my TP Tone
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: When I go in to block the object the Map button shows the object at the sink hole.
[11:10] Arielle Popstar: shows it at the corner of the sim
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: figures it is a attachment
[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: your mask :-)
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: If it was an attachment we would see one of us "sparkling"
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: If it was in the corner of the region, we shouldn't hear it from here.
[11:11] Arielle Popstar: i'm not sparkly?
[11:11] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: Hello at all - good evening
[11:11] Arielle Popstar: HI Bernd
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Evening Bernd
[11:12] Ada Radius: What will happen if estate owner deletes everything called Object? Which is not a bad idea in any sim.
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: The owner comes up as (Unknown). If it is an attachment shouldn't there be a name showing?
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: stop?
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: A lot of prims may also disappear.
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I saw an entrie build being ruined when that happeend
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: Who did what?
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sllokes like a swiss cheese
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: looked*
[11:12] Ada Radius: not that many prims
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I couldn't find any other object at the sink hole.
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you check the bit bucket?
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: well i can't see it
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: lets go to hurliman plaza
[11:16] Ada Radius: landmark?
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: It started up again when Ubit came back
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: mask or headset
[11:16] Ada Radius: Ya. So maybe Ubit goes to Hurliman and checks first?
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I have the object muted so I no longer see the text.
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: me too
[11:17] Arielle Popstar: me 3
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: How do I select it to mute it?
[11:17] Ada Radius: in the IM
[11:17] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have it muted -- I don't see the tees
[11:17] Arielle Popstar: r-click on it
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: click on the name in chat and select block
[11:17] Arielle Popstar: in chat
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Click the name "Object" in the chat window.
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: gone again, when Ubit left
[11:18] Arielle Popstar: scroll in history
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: left click! I've been right clicking in the chat!
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:19] Arielle Popstar: i see it running still when unblocked
[11:19] Ada Radius: You do know, in other group meetings, this one is referred to as the most technically adept?
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: hehe
[11:20] Arielle Popstar: oh
[11:20] Arielle Popstar: this is where all the bugs come from
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: LOL
[11:20] Arielle Popstar: ^^
[11:20] Ada Radius: hence the masks :)
[11:20] Arielle Popstar: ok well off to hurliman i guess
[11:21] Ada Radius: just block it. Ubit's still running this from a cell phone or something?
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: is that where Ubit went?
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, that is where he went. We can go there.
[11:21] Ada Radius: OK
[11:22] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Ubit ans Gavin are at hurliman
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to capture chat in case I get logged out during the TP.
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you probably compiled something into yourself :-)
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: well the other people refuse to come
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: refuse?
[11:23] Arielle Popstar: did you try sending them a tp?
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: well whatever
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: odd issue
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that messaging thing gone?
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: i did had a test prim with a say on script timer
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Ada: These chairs apparently think cats belong on the floor.
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: somehow it got stuck there
[11:24] Ada Radius: So I'll sit on the floor :)
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: more like in the floor right now
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I see a head
[11:24] Arielle Popstar: i only see your head on the floor
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll send Bernd a TP request and tell him its safe.
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Now you are a Cheshire cat head on the floor!
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: think i tested it only with my grid av
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: not sure
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: you dont remember these things?
[11:25] Kayaker Magic: UBIT!!!!
[11:25] Ada Radius: ROFL
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: now it started again
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: ohh nopes it is this one
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: oh it started again
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Its back again.
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: its Bernd
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: so it was this one
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Bernd.
[11:26] Kayaker Magic: At least that one was sparkling so we could see it.
[11:26] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: hello
[11:26] Arielle Popstar: oh no, it is ubit
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: its a test for a mantis issue
[11:26] Ada Radius: hi Bernd
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: well hope it will go out on next restart
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: if not it wll be fun :p
[11:27] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: he he
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have been holding back deploying your test code for a while :-)¨
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: If the fun and games have finished we can begin the meeting. :)
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: you always do that gavin :p
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: what viewer are you using Ada?
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: two moving targets are not exactly ideal for testing
[11:28] Ada Radius: um. Firestorm Beta that Beq handed me
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I need to keep it stable for viewer testing
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: ok in quick preferences there is a hover height that you can adjust your sitting height with
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: besides I have been building a railway
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: do you have hover set ada?
[11:29] Kayaker Magic: I'm using that same viewer Ada, and not having seating problems.
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ... which is a good way to test viewer stability
[11:29] Ada Radius: yes, I did adjust hover height. It's looking OK from here, maybe not caught up yet in the server
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: turn off the viewer AO Ada
[11:29] Ada Radius: it is off
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: fun one is in air, other inside the sit :)
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: cat sit poses may be different from human ones
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: you are some 20cm above the sit arielle
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is that a special rigged avatar?
[11:30] Ada Radius: for sits it shouldn't matter - hips need to land in the same place
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: i was but i adjusted myself
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: you will have to ask the server to update your scene
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: well guess that did not propagate
[11:31] Ada Radius: no, this is a shape with attached ears, whiskers and tail, and an Arcadia system space suit
[11:31] Ada Radius: retro, c.2010
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:31] Arielle Popstar: would a rebke help?
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: my avatar is also retro, shape from about 2008
[11:31] Arielle Popstar: attachment rebake?
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: u see me in air or normal?
[11:31] Ada Radius: my claim to creativity is the skin and eye textures :)
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same
[11:32] Arielle Popstar: i see you slightly sunk in the cushion
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: slef made skin and eyes
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: damm
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: this was working
[11:32] Ada Radius: and keeping my av complexity low
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus the shape and boots and sweater and jeans
[11:33] Ada Radius: Selby wins for low av complexity, he always does.
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: one of the dreamworld testers been mentioning an issue too with being thrown to sim 0,0,0 when trying to sit on a prim
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: my mesh boots pulls it up
[11:34] Ada Radius: ya, shoe and hair artists have no morals at all
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but my viewer does not even have the code for complexity, so meh
[11:34] Ada Radius: you're fine Gav at 17476
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: bring on the clones!
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: you're 17,476 Gavin
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: usually around 35,000
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I should be pretty fine
[11:35] Arielle Popstar: Andrew is the usual high complexity one
[11:35] Arielle Popstar: 330.000
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: I know. I need to find better mesh clothing.
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: damm why is avatar hover broken now??
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: fun fun fun
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you need to unbit it
[11:36] Ada Radius: @Andrew - the mesh looks OK, a little dense but you only have three pieces on. probably the textures. Unneeded alpha channels are a big one.
[11:37] Ada Radius: I take that back - your shoelaces are very dense
[11:37] Arielle Popstar: need some BoM clothing :)
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't make the mesh so I have no idea what feature it might be using.
[11:38] Ada Radius: it's your hair and your shoes, the usual culprits.
[11:38] Ada Radius: I just looked at the wire, the clothes themselves are nicely modeled
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: prim hair converted to mesh tends to be heavy
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sculpted hair too
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: converted to mesh even worse
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: that too
[11:39] Ada Radius: ya and gack. Easier to retopologize than try to fix prims and sculpts
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: prims are good for prototyping buildings
[11:39] Kayaker Magic: retopologize, my new word of the day!
[11:39] Ada Radius: yes
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to get the dimensions right
[11:39] Ada Radius: Ya, I always have problems with scale on big objects
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: its a bit of a mouthfull
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... perhaps the complexity counts all available LODs for the objects. I only see a total count of about 100k.
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: you could try undressing and we can see when it drops
[11:40] Ada Radius: LOD matters, that's a good set of clothing but maybe he or she set the LOD too high
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Arielle.
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: ;)
[11:40] Ada Radius: :)
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: laying the railway tracks in a radius of 250 meter was a bit challenging when it had a 1% gradient
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: thought i'd put that out as innocently ass possible
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: as^
[11:41] Ada Radius: snort. you meant ass
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Nicely done, Arielle.
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, what method are you using to make the train cars move?
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so far none
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. :)
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one thing at the time
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I have the train system from an oar (made by the DTL people, IIRC). I was working on simplifying it a bit.
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:43] Ada Radius: brb
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I had land next to railway on the Atoll continent, but I did not bother to find out how the trains moved at the time
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: It uses tracks sending out a beacon that is detected by the cars. The problem is it defaults to them off. If you reset everything all the markers turn off and the cars won't go anywhere and you then have to turn them all on by hand. Major pain.
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wow
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is that the invisiprim in the middle of the track?
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: Some trains llSensor for a sequence of names in track prims,
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm redoing the track segments to make the default on. Then you just need to turn off certain ones at junctions.
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: some trains record a list of positions in a NC
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: some trains move with physics, others with llSetKeyframedMotion
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, yea, an invis prim near each end of a track segment and maybe one or two more in the middle of a curved section.
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right I have noted those
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: KFM seems like the best choice. I haven't always had a lot of luck using physics to make something move.
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: KFM can easily cross region borders, cause it works with delta values.
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so far the tracks will cross 4 standard sims
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: The catch there is you need to occasionally reset the position to keep you from drifting too far off course.
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Depot so far is at grid.xmir.org:8002:Hengill
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: any updated info on the FS beta? Seeing it no longer logs into S/L saying to go get the release but there is nothing new on the FS site
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: @ubit
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no idea what's happening with FS Arielle
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: no but was hoping Beq might have updated Ubit on the status
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a viewer build with sufficient changes I will probably release tomorrow
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: mostly render, event handling and an optimization that improved inventory loading a bit
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, Anything new in it that is worth a mention?
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. :)
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: Gavin, what is the possibility of having a working revert last wear or attachment item worn/>?
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: revert last wear - what does it do?
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rever to the last outfit?
[11:52] Ada Radius: back
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or just a single item
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: say i try a new skin and dont like it, so now click a button and it reverts to last skin worn
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ic
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: instead of having to research for which one it was
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: same for say something like shoes
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: or dress etc
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: us guys only change outfit every 5 years
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: yes
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so we don't have the issue ;-)
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: if it was dependent on men we could do with text viewers ;p
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but I just think that wearing anew pair of shoes should change the current outfit and you can save that
[11:55] Ada Radius: I'm still interested in something Ubit said last week - a second system avatar. I started a draft of the retopo. If no one's really interested i can always sell it.
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but you can also cancel it, no?
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: NO BECAUSE IT SOON IS A CASE WHERE YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF OUTFITS
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: oops caps
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which should revert it
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is not waht I said
[11:55] Ada Radius: You can nest the outfits into folders
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: that cancel button rarely works as expected in my attemtps
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the current outfit (if saved) will be changed if you change shoes and it can be reverted with the current UI, although maybe a bit convoluted
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: yes Ada i would like to explore that idea too
[11:57] Ada Radius: There are many decisions, and would need a programmer (I am not) who can help with mapping in the xml files.
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not working in FS or my viewer?
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: when just putting a new outfit to gether though, it usually isnt saved till finished
[11:57] Ada Radius: But I can do the modeling and armature work
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: FS, sing etc at least say when changing a texture on something and then deciding to cancel
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: it doesnt revert but holds at the last selected texture even if not confirmed with ok
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it probably does
[11:58] Kayaker Magic: What programming is necessary Ada? XML is not a 'language'
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that part of the code is buggy
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: applying any texture and cancel just applies the texture anyway
[11:59] Ada Radius: no duh. and the xml files are flawed
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Is there anyone with a question but needs to leave soon?
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: yes thats what i find which is a pita when the original texture wasnt acvtually a seperate item in inventory
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: we started half hour late Andrew
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: gone forever :-))
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, but some people can't stay much past the top of the hour.
[12:00] Ada Radius: the armature needs to be revised, to make it easier to rig to, the avatar mesh can be knocked out in a few days, but then will need to be revised according to what's possible in the xml files
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: yes Gn aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatsright
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: not right^
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: like who cant?
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: i dont think Ubit is even here is he?
[12:01] Kayaker Magic: He was here twice a minute ago!
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the problem with most rigged male avatars is if you try and use the bones to change the shape it looks like a female very fast
[12:02] Ada Radius: I missed the RR discussion which I'm very interested in but I'll catch it in the log
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with the standard BOM avatar I look like I have very female tighs
[12:02] Ada Radius: @Gavin yes. That's one of the first decisions - make a separate male avatar, or morph it from the female the way LL did
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I would think bones aren't meant to be used to change an avatar shape.
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can possibly morph it like the DAZ Genesis
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but you need morph targets on the mesh
[12:03] Ada Radius: The appearance sliders affect the armature - length and position.
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like the priginal system avatar
[12:04] Ada Radius: Yes, we need morph targets on the mesh
[12:05] Ada Radius: And a team to work on it together. As I said, I can do the modeling and armature, and probably a bit in the xml file - armature definitions are off. But I'd need help figuring out the morph targets and ranges - I don't understand the xml for those.
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: no idea why hover is not working
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: we do send the change
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: fun fun fun
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: must be the mask holding you down Ubit
[12:06] Ada Radius: Starting with: what to call our male and female. My working file is currently Stella and Frank.
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it nor working in the sim you mean?
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or just you
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: how does it affect us wityh the various viewers?
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hovering fine
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: meaning updatesd system avatars
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: no its not
[12:08] Ada Radius: heh. viewer data goes to the server, which defines what everyone else sees. So many possibilities for problems...
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: we don't see the changes others made
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: i just checked the code path
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: it has worked Ubit
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: we do send the change to all
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: my partner and I test for that a lot
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: especially as she uses sing
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: ohh it works with coolvl
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: seems recent ones are ignoring the change
[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cool
[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: new cap maybe
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: it works with older versions
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: don't recall really
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: it is a parameter on agentAppearance
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: a vector3 actually
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: well regions are doing their job
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh, there is an upcomming change for LM handling in the SL viewer but it requires server side changes
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: bu both fs and singu are ignoring it now
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: let me see dayt
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL-13225 Show parcel owner's name and icon in landmarks.

Requires SL-13224 at server side
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: we are not sl
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: no idea of context of that
[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the viewer devs are mainly, so just giving you a heads up ;-)
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: damm wrong grid
[12:13] Ubit Test: but same
[12:13] Ubit Test: dayt also ignored the change
[12:14] Ada Radius: viewer devs are mainly what?
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL focused
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: secondlife
[12:14] Ada Radius: ah. ya. I have no interest in secondlife
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so they take all new SL features
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: no but what happens there is relevant for here
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or get roasted by LL/users respectively
[12:14] Ada Radius: That's OK, we want BoM too
[12:15] Ada Radius: the roasting, I'm used to. Why can't Ruth be just like Maitreya. Can't you.... yada yada
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: BoM is nice but we alternative routes
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: have^
[12:15] Ada Radius: I'd like that. The original UV mapping is not that great.
[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: my BOM avatar looks terrible (the shape that is) - impossible to make it look good
[12:16] Ada Radius: So that would be another decision on our theoretical new system avatar. Legacy UV, or current industry standards?
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: shouldnt be a difference?
[12:16] Ada Radius: The shape is a combination of data from the armature and the morphs
[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it looks like shit
[12:17] Ada Radius: nothing to do with BoM textures. But not all textures work with all shapes
[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: textures are fine, shpae is terrible
[12:17] Ada Radius: and BoM will make that more obvious
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: prob is we have people who could do viewer work in addition to Gavin but they been hesitant to commit to any specific opensim branch/fork
[12:17] Ada Radius: So fundraising is an issue? I agree
[12:18] Arielle Popstar: not a fundraising issue imo
[12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is that too Arielle
[12:19] Arielle Popstar: we couldnt afford to fund a viewer dev
[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: fixing up 12 yar old code is not particularly attractive to anyone unless you pay them
[12:19] Arielle Popstar: unless they were already willing
[12:19] Ada Radius: I can't work for free full time. A Patreon account for the project, with promises of something spiffy for the donors, would be appropriate.
[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I boycot Patreon, so there is that
[12:20] Ada Radius: ya I asked a few programmer friends to just look at it, they shrieked in horror and said burn it
[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[12:20] Ada Radius: Alternative to Patreon? I've checked others out and they're worse. FB in particular
[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I boycot FB too
[12:21] Ada Radius: what don't you boycott?
[12:21] Arielle Popstar: Bill was working on the viewer, Hy has done work on it and a few others but seems none are willing to do that on a commiutted basis
[12:21] Ada Radius: for fundraising?
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Facebook has an alternative to Patreon??
[12:21] Ada Radius: ya and it's worse
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Not that I care as I don't use FB.
[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Nobody in their right mind are on FB
[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless you want to be sold lock stock and barrel to the highest bidder
[12:22] Ada Radius: I have a lot of cousins, they're all on FB and constantly asking for money there for pet projects. Good causes, all of them. They've learned to send me alternative links to ways to donate.
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: It is used by at least one company that makes 3D printers as their "official" support system. :P
[12:22] Ada Radius: One advantage to Patreon is that you can set levels and make gifts to go with.
[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Pareon defunded a lot of very good creators, so they can stick it
[12:23] Ada Radius: do you know their reasons?
[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:23] Ada Radius: (creators can be horrible at handling money)
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the same type of reasons Youtube was caught with their pants down today auto remving any comment critical to China
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/05/youtube-auto-deletes-comments-with-phrases-critical-of-chinese-government/
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: well about last cod changes..
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: a lot of vodoo on opensim
[12:24] Ada Radius: ya I heard. I didn't hear about problems with Patreon. Ubit is right - this belongs in another kind of meeting
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: like this hover thing :p
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what about it Ubit
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: i did fix it a few months ago
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: now bahh dead
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all right :-)
[12:27] Arielle Popstar: whats the chances of getting the viewer devs to fix it for opensim?
[12:27] Arielle Popstar: or they going to insist it gets fixed server side?
[12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: first step is to unfix what was fixed
[12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I mean re-fix
[12:28] Ada Radius: Viewer and server devs will need to um talk to each other. Gavin is here, I don't see anyone else.
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: ohh my compiled version of fs also does it
[12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does the t?
[12:29] Arielle Popstar: is there a specific viewer dev meeting in s/l Gavin?
[12:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure
[12:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: every second Friday
[12:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: posted to YT
[12:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one sec
[12:30] Ada Radius: YT? sorry I am newish ere
[12:30] Arielle Popstar: open to the general public
[12:30] Arielle Popstar: ?
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: damm vodooo
[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: YouTube?
[12:30] Ada Radius: ah
[12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://www.youtube.com/user/PanteraPolnocy/videos
[12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: next one is on Friday and video paster a couple hours after
[12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: posted*
[12:31] Ada Radius: SL though? We need a team for OS viewers as LL would lose marketplace revenue if they were to fix the avatar.
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right now pretty much everyone are scrambling to fix the viewer for EEP
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: well im filing the hover on the Vodoo folder for now
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even Kokua are going to the leghts of licensing KDU
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: yeah sl wants epp
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: eep
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: leghts*
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: i stil did nothing more on it
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lengths* - jeez
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: as i said i need a tvp other than coolVL to go work working on it
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: tpv
[12:33] Ada Radius: I'm lost in the acronyms here
[12:33] Arielle Popstar: third party viewer
[12:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: KDU is a costly JPEG2000 library lmade my Kakadu something
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: yeap a viewer other than sl one
[12:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: used by the SL viewer
[12:34] Arielle Popstar: i suspect that this BoM one might be the last we see of FS and Opensim
[12:34] Arielle Popstar: if they even finally release an official one
[12:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they will first release a none eep viewer
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: they are on about to release for agers
[12:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then a eep viewer if thay maange to
[12:35] Arielle Popstar: thats what they say but time is running out for that
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: 6.3.9
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: in using its pre release version
[12:35] Arielle Popstar: they need to get up to speed with eep
[12:36] Ubit Umarov: ( hover vodoo aside) seems ok
[12:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: My observation is that the majority of FS features are rolled into the SL viewer very fast
[12:36] Ubit Umarov: fx is working on eep for sometime
[12:36] Arielle Popstar: yes i found the 64 bit version stable on both grids
[12:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so there might not even be a point releasing a new FS
[12:36] Ubit Umarov: just nothing public
[12:36] Ubit Umarov: not on their public code repo
[12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL also published a new logo last week
[12:37] Arielle Popstar: so just give people the Beta download for use here?
[12:37] Ubit Umarov: i asked for some bin
[12:37] Ubit Umarov: nothing..
[12:38] Ubit Umarov: this pre-release did come with -DON'T give to anyone warnings everywhere
[12:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: premium plus has been put on hold indefinately it sounded like
[12:38] Arielle Popstar: yes but it is now no longer an official beta according to them
[12:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they are running out of land (full sims) to sell
[12:38] Kayaker Magic: OMG! Re-designing the logo is one of the 10 deadly signs of a company that is about to go under!
[12:38] Ubit Umarov: but it is basicly like the last beta ppl did share around
[12:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so my nose says change of ownership
[12:39] Arielle Popstar: yes right fter they finish loading to the cloud
[12:39] Arielle Popstar: think thats why they been so gung ho on the "uplifting"
[12:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Oz recently said in an interview there won't be any uplifting till 2021
[12:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: complicated
[12:40] Arielle Popstar: finishing 2021
[12:41] Ada Radius: Kitely's been doing on-demand server resources for years.
[12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no regions till 2021
[12:41] Ada Radius: The same as LL says they're moving toward, slowly
[12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but they are not deploying regions to AWS which may place them anywhere
[12:42] Arielle Popstar: be interesting if s/l changes hands
[12:42] Ada Radius: no, it's on-demand worlds as well
[12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: If the DB/core servers and the region servers get too far apart the performance can suffer.
[12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: It also tends to lead to other strange problems.
[12:43] Ada Radius: because right now LL sims work perfect...
[12:43] Arielle Popstar: eek'
[12:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the minute you start to distribute your regions randomly and also resources, you get all kinds of latency issues
[12:43] Arielle Popstar: slow loading since they moved http
[12:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: scene loading in SL is horrible
[12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: right, Gavin.
[12:43] Ada Radius: yup
[12:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if I log in to my LL home, it takes 2-3 minutes before textures arrive
[12:43] Ada Radius: I heard, anyway
[12:44] Arielle Popstar: home for me is not bad but any club and it can get bad
[12:44] Arielle Popstar: looks like opensim
[12:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: worse
[12:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: much worse
[12:44] Arielle Popstar: say Lbsa on a busy time
[12:45] Arielle Popstar: havent seen it as worse
[12:45] Arielle Popstar: but then it can be pretty dependent
[12:46] Arielle Popstar: i ping 18 ms here but fastest in s/l is 118
[12:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: typically have 350ms in SL
[12:46] Ubit Umarov: scene loading is bad everywhere :(
[12:46] Arielle Popstar: ouch
[12:47] Ubit Umarov: and they do have cdn for assets
[12:47] Arielle Popstar: that didnt seem to help
[12:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to me it looks like if the CDN has not cached the assets close to you, it takes forever to drag them across
[12:47] Ubit Umarov: no big help when a region cna have GB of data
[12:47] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: Ok friends, I have to leave have a nice eve and keep healthy!
[12:48] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bernd. Thanks for dropping by.
[12:48] Arielle Popstar: tc Bernd
[12:48] Ada Radius: Stay safe Bernd
[12:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and I bet the CND will invalidat the cache pretty fast
[12:48] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: bye bye
[12:48] Ubit Umarov: it is viewers job to order the requests
[12:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Bernd
[12:48] Ubit Umarov: and it does a bad job
[12:49] Ubit Umarov: see to look to a texture from inventory, viewer askes for it 3 times
[12:49] Andrew Hellershanks: 3 times??
[12:49] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer can order what it wants, but if the closest CND node, say in Stockholm does not have my content, it has to drag it across the net or load from secondary storage before giving it to the viewer
[12:50] Ubit Umarov: eahc mesh or texture is 2 or 3 requests
[12:50] Arielle Popstar: so hammering the server
[12:50] Ubit Umarov: well bc LODs that is ok
[12:51] Ubit Umarov: but 3 if the higher lod is wanted. is silly
[12:51] Kayaker Magic: Common problem in bloated software. Watch Windows carefully you see it re-draw parts of the screen over and over sometimes for one change.
[12:51] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:52] Arielle Popstar: does LOD change the texture resoltion too?
[12:52] Ubit Umarov: yes it does
[12:52] Arielle Popstar: resolution
[12:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even the original 1984 QuickDraw - whiich was not bloated at all, did that
[12:52] Ubit Umarov: and they called it quick :p
[12:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it actually was very quick given it ran on a 4.75 Mhz processor
[12:53] Ubit Umarov: 4.75 mhz where very fast things :p
[12:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[12:54] Arielle Popstar: oh they do that on voice
[12:54] Ubit Umarov: at least deterministic
[12:54] Arielle Popstar: the s/l tpv meeting
[12:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the VAX ran at 1 Mhz and had 120 concurent users
[12:54] Ubit Umarov: one could say how may hours it would take to do something :)
[12:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: running code analysis on the viewer on a 24 thread Xenon takes only 22 hours
[12:56] Andrew Hellershanks: We are almost at the top of the second hour. This would be a good time to start wrapping it up for this week.
[12:56] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The good old days -- I started on a 1620 in 1962
[12:56] Kayaker Magic: I'm ready to call it quits.
[12:57] Ada Radius: @Selby wow.
[12:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I have work I need to get back to.
[12:57] Arielle Popstar: me 2
[12:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Any last minute comments or questions for today?
[12:57] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Must go -- bye all
[12:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Selby
[12:58] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bye Selby.
[12:58] Arielle Popstar: tc Selby
[12:58] Kayaker Magic: poof!
[12:58] Ada Radius: Be safe everyone
[12:58] Arielle Popstar: waves
[12:58] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, that will do it for today. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.