Chat log from the meeting on 2020-03-10

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[11:00] Licu.Rau hi selby
[11:00] Gavin.Hird Hi Andrew
[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:00] Kayaker Magic: The meeting can start! Andrew is here!
[11:00] Selby.Evans Hi Andrew
[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Kayaker
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Everybody asleep at the keyboard?
[11:05] Licu.Rau no no, meditating
[11:06] Selby.Evans Just no problems
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I mentioned the meeting in IRC to see if Ubit will join us.
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: I'm hoping Ubit will join us soon, then the real meeting can start.
[11:06] Gavin.Hird He probably did not realize the US switched to summertime this weekend
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, right. Yes, the time change does mess up things for a couple of weeks.
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: OMG I *HATE* Daylight Wastings Time with a passion.
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I forgot about the time change or I would have pointed that out at the last meeting.
[11:07] Gavin.Hird it is easy to forget
[11:07] Gavin.Hird comes as a surprise every time
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: Not only that, but my stupid government changed the date of the switch in 2007, so people get even more confused.
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I would prefer to stay on clocks ahead an hour as the sun sets later.
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, same thing happened here a few years ago.
[11:08] Gavin.Hird here up in the north that does not work so well
[11:08] Gavin.Hird the sun would not be up till after 9:30 or even later in the morning
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: I own clocks programmed before 2007 that switch on a different date, and if I don't remember that and switch them manually, they switch a second time later.
[11:09] Gavin.Hird in the winter that is
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: The clocks are turned back for less time so I don't change some of my clocks. I just know they are an hour ahead.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome, Licu. Always nice to see some new people attending these meetings.
[11:10] Licu.Rau thank you
[11:11] Licu.Rau i came here sometimes in the past
[11:11] Licu.Rau but now that i have some difficulties to find a stable dev for Craft I have more interest in the meeting
[11:12] Licu.Rau and also for the ministerial grid edMondo
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: That sounds like a good place to start todays meeting.
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: What do you mean by a "stable dev"? Are you referring to a person or the latest version of Open Simulator code?
[11:13] Selby.Evans The big news in US Covid-19 Universities shifting to on line classes. Should be thinking about virtual worlds Management viewpoint
You need not even think about epidemics.
You don't have any buildings to sanitize.
You don't have any buildings to clean and secure.
Nobody gets raped on a virtual campus.
Nobody needs to park on a virtual campus.
[11:13] Licu.Rau well, the latest version I am testing is one of 24 february
[11:14] Licu.Rau in the regions in which i am testing it users are experiencing some issues, I think bad communications between server and viewer
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: That sounds a bit old.
[11:15] Licu.Rau things like prims modified in size and in a few seconds back to the previous size
[11:15] Licu.Rau i would like to understand better this problem
[11:16] Licu.Rau what is old, the issue or the dev?
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: It does sound a bit like some update messages aren't getting handled properly between OS and the viewer.
[11:16] Gavin.Hird the issue was observed in some dev versions
[11:17] Licu.Rau can it be something related to udp?
[11:17] Gavin.Hird yes
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: The version of OS you are using. The most recent change to the OS code was made today. There have been many changes since February.
[11:17] Licu.Rau yes, I am going to compile it
[11:18] Gavin.Hird I had to revert the virvox changes as the server could not log into their server any more
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: UDP can be part of the issue. UDP packets aren't guaranteed to get through in the order sent.
[11:18] Gavin.Hird possibly a linux only issue, and Ubit added another change I have not tested yet after I discussed it with him
[11:19] Licu.Rau linux issue? also related to threading?
[11:19] Gavin.Hird no - certificate handling
[11:19] Licu.Rau ah
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, mantis 8331 talks about issues relating to Vivox.
[11:19] Gavin.Hird yes, after It did not work, and then it also did not work for Ubit on Linux
[11:20] Gavin.Hird he had only tested on Windoze
[11:20] Gavin.Hird I'm going to make a new test tomorrow
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Licu, are you running OpenSim on Linux or WindCows?
[11:21] Licu.Rau Linux
[11:21] Licu.Rau debian in Craft and RedHat in edMondo
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Which version of mono are you using, Licu?
[11:21] Gavin.Hird ... there are viewer issues galore that needs to be sorted right now
[11:22] Licu.Rau with this dev it is 6.8 I think, moment checking
[11:23] Licu.Rau Mono JIT compiler version (tarball Wed Jan 15 10:20:48 UTC 2020)
[11:23] Licu.Rau viewer issues are about cache, is there something more?
[11:24] Gavin.Hird heh
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, what sort of viewer issues have you discovered?
[11:24] Gavin.Hird In the last TPV meeting one of the devs were shouting at Oz for 20 minutes over eep
[11:24] Licu.Rau :)
[11:24] Gavin.Hird two viewer devs have completely screwed up the renderer, so they have to start over again
[11:25] Kayaker Magic: What's eep?
[11:25] Gavin.Hird plus there are major issues with the new login requirments when they go Premium Plus
[11:25] Gavin.Hird it is the repleacement of Windlight
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, one of the newer features in SL.
[11:25] Gavin.Hird which happens to be completely incpmpatible with Lightshare
[11:26] Gavin.Hird so to support EEP, lightshare must be removed from opensim
[11:26] Gavin.Hird I think Ubit has tried, but it just became a mess
[11:27] Gavin.Hird so messy both viewer and server side
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: EEP is using some of the same messages and data packets as Lightshare but with some differences that are causing problems?
[11:27] Gavin.Hird the issue is if opensim should support eep at all, but that would lead to viewer splits for seprate opensim versions
[11:28] Licu.Rau not a good thing
[11:28] Gavin.Hird they have had their rendering folks working on it for 1 1/2 years
[11:28] Gavin.Hird plus all kinds of settings can now be sold on the marketplace
[11:28] Gavin.Hird so very complicated protection
[11:29] Gavin.Hird you can't go grab a windlight scene any more unless you have full access to textures and all used in the scene
[11:30] Licu.Rau for 'you' you mean the viewer?
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: It all sounds like a big mess that may take a while to sort out.
[11:31] Gavin.Hird you as a traveler. photographers used to travel to interesting sims, save the settings and work on them for refinement
[11:31] Gavin.Hird not possible any more
[11:31] Licu.Rau so workaround is not using these features, i suppose
[11:31] Gavin.Hird In Sl it not possible to not use them
[11:31] Gavin.Hird they will force a viewer update
[11:32] Gavin.Hird plus the Premium Plus will also render most old viewers uselss
[11:32] Gavin.Hird refusing to log in
[11:34] Licu.Rau so, about vivox, can we use the devs of today?
[11:34] Gavin.Hird it is alos very difficult to get a handle on what changes they are doing after the git conversion. They used to have features in separae repositories during development. Now they just push branches with some obscure number referring to JIRAAs we don't have access to
[11:35] Gavin.Hird you can try and see if it works for you
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: The mantis would indicate yes, but future viewers may have problems with Vivox.
[11:35] Gavin.Hird if you can connect to their backend, the viewers hsould be OK for now
[11:36] Gavin.Hird biggest concern is that SLVoice is a black-box we don't have the source to
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a new voice system being developed for use with OS which was mentioned at the OSCC.
[11:38] Selby.Evans We cab hope for EchoVoice:
[11:38] Selby.Evans This presentation from Infinite Metaverse Alliance® (IMA) and Thales Group discusses progress towards improving open source code used in a self-hosted secure voice solution called EchoVoice. This is an alternative to ViVox which is commonly used for voice communication between avatars in OpenSimulator regions. The discussion is focused on the development work done to provide a modernized solution for HyperGrid-enabled regions as well as planned enhancements not currently available.
[11:38] Gavin.Hird common for all of them are they are either not in active development, or not available for all operating systems for clients or have commercial licenses
[11:38] Licu.Rau considering that often vivox doesnt work well at all and that in our education regions they often use other systems to communicate (skype and others), perhaps it is time of thinking of something else
[11:38] Gavin.Hird so it is a very mixed bag for voice
[11:39] Gavin.Hird Selby, what was presented is not available for more than maybe one operating system
[11:39] Gavin.Hird client side
[11:40] Gavin.Hird so useless
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: One operating system for now.
[11:41] Selby.Evans Not available at all yet
[11:41] Gavin.Hird for now :-)
[11:41] Gavin.Hird let's say it as it is, there is no development activity on the other platforms
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: We may have a long wait for it. No way to know when it may be generally available.
[11:42] Selby.Evans True, Gavin -- unless somebody wants to move the project in that ditection
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: If the system is still in heavy development it makes sense to keep it for one operating system until the system and its code base stabilize.
[11:43] Gavin.Hird TBH, you need to have a pretty specialiced set of skill to succeed
[11:43] Gavin.Hird it is not in heavy development
[11:43] Selby.Evans That is the case,Andrew
[11:44] Gavin.Hird plus developing for macOS vs Windows are two different planets
[11:44] Gavin.Hird macOS and Linux a bit closer
[11:46] Selby.Evans The basic Scenegate is not developed for Mac. but someone is working on that. Windows and Linux versions are available.
[11:46] Gavin.Hird who is the someone?
[11:47] Selby.Evans I don't know, Gavin -- I don't follow it that closely.
[11:47] Gavin.Hird the only few commits were a hack by Cinder to rename the viewer in the nib file
[11:48] Gavin.Hird the problem with macOS development is that from Feb 3, Apple requires everything to be signed on new hardware
[11:49] Gavin.Hird and to achieve that you have to use their frameworks
[11:49] Gavin.Hird which only work with Swift or Objective-C
[11:50] Gavin.Hird the older libs still used by the viewer also work with C++, but that is getting increasigly difficult
[11:50] Selby.Evans Yes -- I suppose working on means looking at the problem
[11:50] Kayaker Magic: Selby, didn't HiFi opensource their sound system? Have your devs looked into that?
[11:51] Selby.Evans I will ask them Kayaker
[11:51] Gavin.Hird it should be on their site if it is still upI suppose
[11:52] Gavin.Hird up*
[11:52] Gavin.Hird Talking about HIFI, LL have said Sansar is for sale
[11:52] Gavin.Hird they cannot support it any more
[11:53] Selby.Evans But the objective in EchoVoice is Military security -- Na man in the middle
[11:54] Gavin.Hird NSA is always in the middle ;-)
[11:55] Gavin.Hird or other such agencies around the world
[11:56] Selby.Evans I know about NSA and appreciate it when I do comedy -- I know that at least somebody is listening.
[11:56] Gavin.Hird haha
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: My PDA just beeped to remind be of todays meeting. Its clock didn't update. It usually does, IIRC.
[11:57] Selby.Evans Hi Bernd
[11:57] Gavin.Hird Evening Bernd
[11:57] Gavin.Hird I am afraid you are one hour late
[11:57] Kayaker Magic: One hour late Bernd, welcome to Daylight Wastings Time.
[11:57] Bernd.Steinhardt Good evening friends
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Bernd.
[11:58] Bernd.Steinhardt Oh no... different time mgic
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: The hour is just about up. Any last minute items for today?
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, it is that time of year again, Bernd.
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: That will wrap up todays meeting. Thank you all for coming. See you again same time next week, or an hour earlier than usual for those in the Europe or places in the world where the clocks have not moved ahead an hour.
[12:01] Bernd.Steinhardt he he, yes
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll stick around for a while to see if others turn up for the meeting.
[12:01] Gavin.Hird Thank you too Andrew
[12:02] Selby.Evans Bye all!
[12:02] Gavin.Hird Bye Selby
[12:02] Licu.Rau bye selby

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