Chat log from the meeting on 2020-01-14

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[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02] Kayaker Magic: ?I don't see his name on that chair!
[11:02] TIGGS Beaumont: Hello Andrew
[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Hello Andrew!
[11:02] Selby.Evans Hi Tiggs, Andrew
[11:02] Gavin.Hird Hi Andrew, TIGGS
[11:02] TIGGS Beaumont: Se;by hello
[11:02] TIGGS Beaumont: Gavin Hi there
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:03] TIGGS Beaumont: Ubit. hello
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: I heard Bill is busy in RL and not here as often now?
[11:03] TIGGS Beaumont: Kayaker hi there
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: Hi Tiggs!
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't seen him this year.
[11:03] TIGGS Beaumont: How are you Kayaker?
[11:05] TIGGS Beaumont: Kayaker, I have a question regarding sea depth
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: For me?
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit has been busy this past week with a number of changes to the code.
[11:05] TIGGS Beaumont: yes you are an Oceanic engineer yes?
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: LOL, that is what my hovertext says!
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:06] TIGGS Beaumont: UBIT is always busy  :-)
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: true
[11:06] TIGGS Beaumont: okay I have an OAR that accomodates 85 foot depth, can it be placed in OSGrid?
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: well not that mucj code
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: What's your question, TIGGS?
[11:07] TIGGS Beaumont: ohhhh not code?
[11:07] Gavin.Hird we use meters in opensim
[11:07] TIGGS Beaumont: okay meters depth
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: still the fs bom issue, hopefully better now
[11:07] Gavin.Hird 85 meters?
[11:07] TIGGS Beaumont: yes 85
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: and other viewers with similar code base can use
[11:07] Gavin.Hird is just the water height set to 85 meters?
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: yeap SI only :)
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: Do you mean 85m below the normal 20m water level? So if you stood on the bottom you would be at about -65m?
[11:08] TIGGS Beaumont: No the trench is also
[11:08] TIGGS Beaumont: I mean a total of 85 m
[11:08] TIGGS Beaumont: from water level down
[11:08] Gavin.Hird it probably will import just fine with a water depth of 85 meters
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: ppl should avoid z < 0
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: Do you use the default water level of 20m?
[11:09] TIGGS Beaumont: so that would mean this Ubit?
[11:09] TIGGS Beaumont: yes
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: had my arm twisted to allow it
[11:09] TIGGS Beaumont: but the OAR was built to accomodate 85meter depth
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: but viewer shaders do fail badly
[11:09] Gavin.Hird exactly
[11:10] TIGGS Beaumont: What does that mean please?
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: Does that mean the OAR will load OK, but the viewer will not show it well?
[11:10] Gavin.Hird it will not render water blewo 0 well
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: means that if you want something to look 85m underwater, you should set water level > 85m
[11:10] Gavin.Hird below*
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: You could load it offset to make all the terrain >0 and then move the water level up to make the depth work out.
[11:11] TIGGS Beaumont: so it would also need to be a stand alone sim yes?
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: viewers just turn all black if z<0
[11:11] Gavin.Hird no
[11:11] TIGGS Beaumont: an HG sim for people to enjoy?
[11:11] TIGGS Beaumont: no?
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Well, you could put it in any grid, but not up against other regions.
[11:12] Gavin.Hird it will just look bad it it borders other sims with water depth 20
[11:12] TIGGS Beaumont: exactly
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: You could put it next to a region with 20m water if you like, but there would be strange views across the borders.
[11:12] TIGGS Beaumont: so if I choose to have it placed in OSGrid what is the depth issue?
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: nahh that is very ugly
[11:12] Gavin.Hird where did you export the oar from?
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: all regions in visible range must have same water level
[11:13] TIGGS Beaumont: I had Rick Mayo create it for me in Digi
[11:13] TIGGS Beaumont: Yes Ubit
[11:13] Gavin.Hird ok, so you have never seen it in opensim elsewhere
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: Your deep trench should work several different ways, some of them will be ugly.
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: bet no viewer dev will ever look to those shaders :)
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: isn't Digi OpenSim?
[11:14] Gavin.Hird you have to rewrite the erenderer Ubit
[11:14] TIGGS Beaumont: yes, Digi is opensim
[11:14] Gavin.Hird it is not the shaders per se
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: asuuming opengl is happy with that.. no idea
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: In OSGrid you could put 8 ocean regions around your OAR and set their water to 65 meters to match.
[11:14] Gavin.Hird the renderer does not know about negative z
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: its a shader
[11:14] TIGGS Beaumont: I have an OAR for 5oceans
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: on advanced light
[11:15] Gavin.Hird a shader is just input to the renderer
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: if you turn advanced light off, you see fine
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: but who wants do do that? :)
[11:16] TIGGS Beaumont: I would love to bring th etrench to OSGrid and the Oceans
[11:16] TIGGS Beaumont: but still have so musch to learn
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: Tiggs: The viewer works best if you raise your OARs until none of the terrain is negative, but there is nothing preventing you from setting up your own little corner of OSGrid (or any other grid) with the water high enough to do this.
[11:17] Gavin.Hird it should behave the same in OSG as in digi
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: hmm sheera not here today to do the log
[11:17] TIGGS Beaumont: wait set up my own little corner?
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: well about last week code
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: of course after a release, new bugs do show up :)
[11:18] TIGGS Beaumont: <--will hush and let meeting take place
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: Tiggs: Are the 5 oceans you have 256x256, and are they designed to be next to each other?
[11:18] TIGGS Beaumont: yes
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: Sounds nice!
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: a nasty one, attachments where not presisting new attachment points
[11:18] TIGGS Beaumont: it is I had it placed once
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: persisting
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: another nasty one
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: for some odd reason, our texture for transparency was a flat RGB black thing
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: yeack
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: a pain to fix now
[11:20] Gavin.Hird that was a bit of a chew
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: the old one is on all region anc viewers cache
[11:21] Gavin.Hird the fix removed most black avatar issues with BOM
[11:21] Gavin.Hird and every grid db out there
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: if grids use core code, they get automaticly updated
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: not osgrid case
[11:22] Gavin.Hird best is to install the fix on robust and reload robust to update the db with the correct texture
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: already worked around that with Dan..
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: but for some reason LBSA refused to update it
[11:22] Gavin.Hird still?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: not sure othre plazas
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: well dan needs to go delete it from cache again
[11:23] Gavin.Hird oh
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: we have no idea where it is coming from
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: dan even did restarted lbsa after removing it from cache
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: and bahh there it was again..
[11:24] Gavin.Hird and the two UUIDs have been checked in every db?
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: of course viewers do learn about it from first region tehy see at login after cache clear
[11:25] Gavin.Hird they actually learned about it from robust once it was loaded in robust
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: uuids are the same, but diferetn data
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: yes i did add code to always refresh those assets at each robust start
[11:25] Gavin.Hird so check the db on the two uuids and inspect the record if the data actually is the same
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: done
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: i had another transparency here at osg
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: dan did replace the asset metadata file name to point to that on the 2
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: i fired a clean region, and it did got the "new" ones
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: not LBSA :)
[11:27] Gavin.Hird does LBSA run something special other regions don't?
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: no idea
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: Dan could not remember anything either
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: lets see
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: ppl did live with that so far.. somehow
[11:28] Gavin.Hird they way people will see it is if they add a new alpha to their outfir
[11:28] Gavin.Hird edit the alpha
[11:28] Gavin.Hird then it should show a number of ares filled with white
[11:28] Gavin.Hird none enabled
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: yeah guess all did set the alpha to transparency
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Is osgrid using fsassets and could that be caching a bad version of the texture?
[11:29] Gavin.Hird if you enable one it shall swtich to transparent
[11:29] Gavin.Hird the old behaviro was swticing to black
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: yeah something is caching it for lbsa
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: well Dan will fix it :)
[11:29] Gavin.Hird if it still switch to black anywhere on your grid and/or region the updates is not effective
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: the fsassets db seems ok now
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: osgrid is running a costum version made by mel
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: no idea details
[11:30] Gavin.Hird if you did this for a BOM, and the black appeared, the corresponding body part would go black rather
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: BOM did made that visible
[11:31] Gavin.Hird so if people have old alphas made with black, wearing them with a BOM avatar may turn it black
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: but may mean some issue still on viewer side bake
[11:31] TIGGS Beaumont: I think that s correct
[11:31] TIGGS Beaumont: sorry wrong window
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: because that transparency does have a magic UUID
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: IMG_INVISIBLE
[11:32] Gavin.Hird I am glad we sorted that out
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: baking code does detect it and does special handling
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: never the less, we should have proper asset
[11:33] Gavin.Hird yep
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: fear we may have mre issues on more assets
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: like UI sounds etc
[11:33] Gavin.Hird not unlikely
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: things with fixed UUIDs on viewers are hard to spot
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: if you log at SL, all will seem fine here
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: well and i have UI sounds off.. harder to spot issues :)
[11:35] Gavin.Hird there might be an issue with the awful alpha masking / alpha blending (can't remember which) for textures
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: but you feedback about bugs is bad :(
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: this and that attachments issue.. only now spotted :(
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: guess we will have a Snail release
[11:36] Gavin.Hird a snail blitz
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: well and 1024 baking is a pain to add to viewers
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: 1024px
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: all baking code assumes fixed size on all masks etc
[11:37] Gavin.Hird are you sure of that
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: tested it :)
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: and Beq did confirm also
[11:38] Gavin.Hird I vividly remember a change setting the max baking texure to 1024, but no diffences in viewer cocde path between 512 or 1024
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: all those masks on folder character
[11:39] Gavin.Hird viewer concoction code :-O
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: total size can be set on avatar_lad-xml
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: but the masks don't get scaled
[11:39] Gavin.Hird I spotted another BOM feature the other day
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: i seen my shirt with 1024px
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: but masks all wrong
[11:40] Gavin.Hird if you wear an avatar with only the system avatar head visible, the shadow only shows the head
[11:40] Gavin.Hird so meshes don't show shadows at all
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: sure ll BOM has issues still
[11:41] Gavin.Hird meshes are showing shadows in SL, but there might be some server side code there helping it
[11:41] Gavin.Hird worn meshes that is
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: shadows are not baked things
[11:42] Gavin.Hird well, it does not show here and does in SL - same code
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: no idea
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: just shadows is total dif code
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: even code that does render the baked is the same
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: don't see what on baking could impact shadows
[11:44] Gavin.Hird I did not specifically say it did
[11:44] Gavin.Hird :-))
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:45] Gavin.Hird Any news from Kitely, Selby?
[11:46] Selby.Evans Kitely is working om 9.x and probably wants to roll out mid Feb.
[11:47] Gavin.Hird good
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: guess they will have a lot of work now
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: One thing that Kitely announced is that they are going to be using XEngine with 0.9
[11:47] Selby.Evans May not be that fast, but really wants roll out before March
[11:48] Gavin.Hird ok
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: i had plans to go their meeting last sunday
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: missed it again
[11:48] Gavin.Hird I guess that is the safest approcah given tha presumably large amount of scripts
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: but well they do know where to find me
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Kitely has about 600 patches to deal with and to determine which ones still need to be applied to 0.9
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: hope they don't take own road again
[11:49] Gavin.Hird maybe they could release some of them for consideration by core?
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: ( except on their own specific things, of course )
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: well grids don't need to submit code for core approval, core is not Apple :p
[11:50] Selby.Evans I will urge release for core, except for proprietary stuff
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be nice if they did. I'm surprised by the number of patches they say they have. It makes me curious about what things they have changed or fixed.
[11:50] Gavin.Hird I was thinking juicy bits ;-)
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: well core since 0.8 had a bit more than 800 patchs
[11:51] Selby.Evans They have change database and datbase handling
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't envy the person that has to go through all the patches to check for relevance in 0.9 and possibly having to update the patches so they can be applied to 0.9.
[11:51] Gavin.Hird Apple is jsut being a pain right now
[11:51] Gavin.Hird just*
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: that is not the way of doing it andrew
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: not with 3000 patchs on one side and 800 on other :p
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: They could just cherry pick all the changes and deal with them as patches break but that still seems problematic.
[11:52] Selby.Evans They have a patch to give response to search request
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: nahh look to patchs is not how to do it in this case
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: we don't have search
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: they need own thing or plugh module
[11:53] Gavin.Hird but we could have ....
[11:53] Selby.Evans They don;t want debug by customers if they can avoid it.
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: yeah we could
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, there is a setting for the search URL. I did do some initial work on having web type search.
[11:54] Gavin.Hird reemeber SL is killing web profiles any day now
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: users debug should not be a comerial grids thing
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: thats for those opensim opensource free code :p
[11:54] Gavin.Hird so that code will be removed from viewers
[11:54] TIGGS Beaumont: wow
[11:55] Gavin.Hird the old profile style will be re-introduced
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: yeah going back to the old ones
[11:55] Gavin.Hird in connection with the new names
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: guess fs based code
[11:55] Gavin.Hird it is the fs profile ++
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: hope theu don't mess it up 2 much
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: or more fights with viewer devs :p
[11:56] Gavin.Hird in the last TPVmeeting they said it was just about good to go any day now
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: i do not want to change our profiles
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: bored Iggs ? :)
[11:57] Gavin.Hird probably most of the issues are related to the SL infrastructure
[11:57] TIGGS Beaumont: not yet, mind boggled yes
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: well they may decide to change api etc
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: ahhh
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: i looked to AISv3
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: what a.. p... of crap
[11:58] Gavin.Hird :-))
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: even violates caps uri scheam
[11:59] Gavin.Hird the grid currency OMC is no more
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: wingridproxy could not see it because of that
[11:59] Gavin.Hird Virwox posted a short message to their website
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: some ll protocolll gezzz
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, really?
[11:59] Gavin.Hird
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: they do smoke things more strange than the ones we smoke
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: so i gave up touch "AIS" again
[12:00] Gavin.Hird they probably have some magic particles for their smoke
[12:00] TIGGS Beaumont: so what happens to the coinage held by some?
[12:00] Gavin.Hird zapped
[12:00] Gavin.Hird gone
[12:00] Gavin.Hird nada
[12:00] Gavin.Hird mine too
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: They didn't bother to send emails to the people who had accounts with their system.
[12:01] Gavin.Hird I never got any message in any form
[12:01] TIGGS Beaumont: so it is lost to the virtual winds?
[12:01] Gavin.Hird I suppose it is
[12:01] TIGGS Beaumont: tax loss I wonder?
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I will see if I can find out why they shut down their system. They don't have a link to the previous announcement.
[12:02] TIGGS Beaumont: They are now recommending BitPanda
[12:02] Gavin.Hird it was run by a university
[12:02] Gavin.Hird anything can happen
[12:02] TIGGS Beaumont: It's always a chance
[12:02] Gavin.Hird it probalby was not woke enough
[12:03] TIGGS Beaumont: *chalks it up to virtual reality
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: ahh
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: i also made adult and payment on file parcels access control work
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: then disabled it by default :)
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: well not tested :)
[12:04] TIGGS Beaumont: okay but what did that mean?
[12:04] Gavin.Hird I am glad you reminded me about that
[12:04] Gavin.Hird I need to to but I guess it won't fly without a grid currency
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: did add the gatekeeper alias
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: so regions can detect other URLs as still local grid
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: ( osgrid is a case, HG logins and gatekeeper are, local logins are )
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: that made be considered a external grid
[12:07] TIGGS Beaumont: <---------lost there
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: guess thats all since 911 release :)
[12:07] TIGGS Beaumont: How can osgrid be foreign?
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: driink your tea
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:07] TIGGS Beaumont: :-) smart ass
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: what else andrew ?
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: anyone has news about gcg ?
[12:09] TIGGS Beaumont: should be up in a few weeks I was told bu Shirah
[12:09] TIGGS Beaumont: or sooner
[12:09] Gavin.Hird they always say that...
[12:09] TIGGS Beaumont: the mantra is *fingers crossed
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: guess on their new tech hands now
[12:09] TIGGS Beaumont: would be nice
[12:09] TIGGS Beaumont: I have 2 islands there
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: had
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:10] Gavin.Hird no backups?
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: The GCG is making progress. It is going to take some time for them to replace their grid management system.
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: regions where fine gavin.Hird
[12:10] TIGGS Beaumont: *grins I am an eternal optimist for th emost
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: just lost DNS and grid management tools
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: and of course where a 0.8 version
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: digi fork
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, The GCG was using grid management software licenced from Terry Ford. The grid owner and Terry got in to a tiff and Terry removed the grid management software from the system and they aren't currently allowed to continue using it.
[12:11] Gavin.Hird I have sold a LOT of backup solutions in my time and often heard the "all is fine..."
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: its not a backup issue
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: at least for now :)
[12:12] Gavin.Hird as I said - all is fine till it sin't
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:12] Gavin.Hird isn't
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: sad to see all that ppl and Tiggs waiting :(
[12:13] Gavin.Hird yes
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: It is now quarter past. Any last minute comments or questions?
[12:13] TIGGS Beaumont: I know it is sad
[12:13] TIGGS Beaumont: many live through that grid
[12:13] Gavin.Hird Apple is being a fucking pain these days
[12:13] Gavin.Hird two days before christmas they sent out a developer note
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: At least the GCG is working on getting back on track. The initial news was that it was just going to shutdown for good.
[12:14] Gavin.Hird all new applications (meaning not already signed" will be bloced from running at all on macOS 10.15 from the beginnign of february
[12:14] Gavin.Hird so viewers might not run at all
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: fs refused to keep paying for a sign cert
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I would guess that in order to be able to get an app signed money needs to be handed to Apple.
[12:15] Gavin.Hird I am not even sure it is possible to get them signed they way they require
[12:15] Gavin.Hird as the code will not pass the code reviewe they do in connection with signing
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: they want macs closed as ios
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: even more possible
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: but ms on same road also
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: grrr
[12:16] Gavin.Hird so we shall see
[12:16] Gavin.Hird I will try to get the viewer approved - they call it notarized
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: guess days of opensource and free software are counted
[12:17] TIGGS Beaumont: so I may have some problems if and when GCG returns?
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: unrelated issue tiggs
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: It may just increase the popularity of alternatives to Windows and Mac.
[12:17] TIGGS Beaumont: better sell my coins before they bottom out
[12:17] Gavin.Hird Apple lost market share also last quarter for Macs, so maybe it might be a wakeup call
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: some strange ppl use computers called mac :p
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: It is past the hour mark and we are straying off topic. I think it is time to call this meeting to a close.
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

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