Chat log from the meeting on 2019-12-03

[10:53] Kayaker Magic: Bill, I'm giving a talk at OSCC about 0.9.1, YEngine and ubODE, would you mind if I mention this region as a place to try those out?
[10:54] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: That is perfectly fine
[10:54] Kayaker Magic: Great. I've also got YEninge on most of my OSGrid land also.
[10:54] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: I"ll put out a few extra vehicles around OSCC time
[10:55] Kayaker Magic: Oh, is there a firs-line comment trick for switching between X and Yengine in one region?
[10:55] Kayaker Magic: So you enable both of them make one the default and say // XEngine in the first line of a script?
[10:56] Ubit Umarov: Kay basic changes are the default engine setting and the respective enable
[10:56] Ubit Umarov: one could have both running.. but.. mb bad :)
[10:57] Kayaker Magic: So NO, I can't switch between X and Y on a script-by-script basis.
[10:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when will we see you using the IMA viewer?
[10:58] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: ugg out of heap exception YEngine
[10:59] Kayaker Magic: Bill, when did you get the heap error on YEngine? Just now?
[10:59] Ubit Umarov: better set the heap to a high value
[10:59] Ubit Umarov: i think i improved its acount of usade memory
[11:00] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Don't know -- FS is more convenient for me--it in not for the oldies -- for the nubies
[11:00] Ubit Umarov: but x had none.. so,,
[11:00] Ubit Umarov: FS is a nice UI now
[11:00] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: just now
[11:02] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: There is something I haven't seen for a while. Three of you are standing in t-pose. :)
[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Is there a way to tell if vivox is enabled in a region? I've found if I come from a region where it is into a region where it is not, my white dot does not go away, so that is not a good indicator.
[11:05] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: there is an icon in the search bar in FS that shows if voice is disabled
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ty. Everything here is back to normal now. :)
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Right. If voice is disabled the microphone button is grayed out.
[11:06] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: well, that is not always true Andrew, if you have your mic toggled ON and voice gets disabled, most of the time it stays stuck ON ... LOL
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: True, Bill.
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I've seen that happen. I'm here now and I have a white dot over my head but my mic button is grayed out.
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: You in FS Andrew? What does it say on the search bar?
[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same here Andrew
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Yes, I'm in FS.
[11:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Wave graphic has red strike sign
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: If search bar refers to the icons across the bottom of the FS viewer screen I have a grayed out button that I use to initiate voice chat..
[11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: on hover, popup says voice not avalable here
[11:10] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: across the top
[11:10] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: not bottom
[11:10] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: unless you have it disabled
[11:10] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: location/search bar
[11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I an talking about the address bar
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Didn't think that the search bar reference made sense.
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the region has voice, but there is no voice channel available
[11:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: at the top
[11:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Mic at bottom is greyed out
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I see the voice related icon at the top of the viewer screen and it shows voice is disabled.
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes it is
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: It is called the navigation and search bar, I usually have it disabled to free up more screen space. It is just below the menu bar.
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: oh, right. There is a search field in the top right corner. I've never used it.
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: What items does it search?
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: Mine has a sound icon with a red NO circle and crossbar, Hovering over it says "Voice not available here"
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: I'll give that a try the next time the white dot sticks on.
[11:13] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: It triggers the inworld search
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Yes, I have same icon but no pop up text for it.
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since most of you have white dots both over the avatar and in the people list, there is voice running for the region
[11:14] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: I had voice on here, just turned it off when started talking about it
[11:14] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: Turning it back on now ...
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Its back.
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: magic
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: :)
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: How do you turn it on without restarting?
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: More magic. ;)
[11:16] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: about land > sound
[11:16] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: un check it
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you give the server a kick in the right side
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: no more no less 20Ns impulse !
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: so now that y engine is a thing, does that mean no more updates to X engine?
[11:19] Kayaker Magic likes YEngine!
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you get it running on your PI?
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: No, I tried once, new OpenSim on Pi crashed and burned, no time to figure out why yet.
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: lot of x-engine scripts out there though
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: O.o
[11:21] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: majority of X scripts will run fine under Y
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: Only problem I have ever seen is bad syntax that X let slip by but Y does not.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: basicly only odd syntax things wil l fail
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Like some things you might find in a script from SL.
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: how odd is odd?
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: 1 in 10?
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: 1 in a 100?
[11:22] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: yeah Y is not as forgiving for bad scripting habits as X was
[11:23] Kayaker Magic: Well, you know the saying "A bad programmer can write FORTRAN in any language"?
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: well both now stop on divide by zero
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: is that they way y engine was coded? to not let that slip by?
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org grins at Kayaker
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: another typical scripts thing
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Fortran (actually WATFIVS) was my second(?) programming language, or maybe third.
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can thank FORTRAN for the abundance of cheap oil and gas
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Y fixes a bunch of things like llSleep, prevents swcripts from stealing the CPU from the server, does border crossings more reliably, runs faster.
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Did I miss anything Ubit?
[11:24] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: More SL like in syntax
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: more or less that
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: is there documentation listing those advantages?
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: yes.. this meeting log
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Any differences in order of execution or short cutting behaviour in (for example) if statements?
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe
[11:25] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: FORTRAN was my first programming language--I learned it from the manual --there were courses around them
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: it does those if(blabla) fine
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i exchanged Fortran course for BASIC
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: also does some odd lsl lists hacks needed for first lsl sl engine
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: What threw me off a little was realizing that execution of conditionals was right to left.
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: I'm giving a talk at OSCC on "what is great about 0.9.1" and YEngine and that list is one of my slides. What else is good about 0.9.1 that I should make a slide for?
[11:28] Kayaker Magic: I'm talking about some of the bug fixes, ubODE, ...
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: don't ask me.. i only remember its flaws :p
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i guess documentation ISN'T one of the advantages :)
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe
[11:28] Kayaker Magic: animesh....
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Melanie's console code dump
[11:29] Kayaker Magic: Is BOM in the snail release?
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: yes
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: shouldnt be included till we have a official viewer that supports it
[11:29] Ubit Umarov kicks gavin
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:30] Kayaker Magic: I'll mention it as something else good that is coming....
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: there are viewers claiming to suport bom now
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: well might be debatable as to whether it is "good"
[11:31] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: yes but does Yeti support them without crashing older regions?
[11:31] Kayaker Magic: LOL, it decreases bandwidth, so BOM should be good for everybody
[11:31] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: theoretically Kay
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the decrease will immediately be maxed out again on other outlandish attachments
[11:32] Sheera Khan: hihihi
[11:32] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: we are not all males wearing the same body and clothes year in year out :p
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: some of us like a little variety
[11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Hey! I resemble that remark.  ;)
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: ;)
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: you arent alone Andrew!
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: come on, I just switched to my winter sweater
[11:33] Kayaker Magic: Friend of mine says the best way to detect a guy in a female avatar is to measure the low frequency of outfit change.
[11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: About time to start wearing ugly Christmas sweaters.
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: Bill is actually 3 times heavier then he normally is
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I know one woman IRL who wears the same outfit almost all the time.
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: depends too on the available content
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like late Steve Jobs who allegedly owned 100 copies of the same turtleneck
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: cheaper by the dozen i suppose
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can either prioritize my time on working on the viewer or making outfits. I can't do both
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: or work on the viewer and test it by going shopping :)
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I shop on Kitely market from time to time, but that is direct delivery
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually where do you go shopping these days?
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: best to stress a viewer by going to an overloaded shopping sim
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I do that sometimes
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: if Kitely took gloebits i would shop there a bit
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: measuring time to crash
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which can be as short as 30 seconds on some sims, or even welcome regions
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for some odd reason grid owners often stuff their welcome regions to the max
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just to make sure visitors never come back
[11:40] Kayaker Magic: I've got half a dozen regions here in OSGrid on 4 different severs, but one of them refuses to start OpenSim with an error loading the MySQL module. I'll dump the error message here and see if anyone can decode it for me:
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: guess they figure you wont go any further
[11:40] Kayaker Magic: 20:16:57 - [SERVICE BASE]: Failed to load plugin OpenSim.Region.Framework.Interfaces.ISimulationDataStore from OpenSim.Data.MySQL.dll with args Data Source=localhost;Database=opensim;User ID=opensim;Password=****;System.Reflection.TargetInvocationException: Exception has been thrown by the target of an invocation. ---> System.IO.FileNotFoundException: Could not load file or assembly 'System.Data, Version=4.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=b77a5c561934e089' or one of its dependencies.
at OpenSim.Data.MySQL.MySQLSimulationData..ctor (System.String connectionString) [0x00013] in <c406b17672aa41a58a0b3ffd6b2117c4>:0
at (wrapper managed-to-native)
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: vodoo
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: didnt like the password
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, are you using WiFi?
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: maybe syntax :)
[11:41] Kayaker Magic: I commented out the password in that message! I tried loging onto command line mysql with the password, worked fine.
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That looks like an error I got that either came from WiFi or the mutelist module.
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: The server is connected to my lan over a wire.
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: try delete addins-db folder
[11:43] Kayaker Magic: Where is the addins-db folder, I see nothing like that.
[11:43] Kayaker Magic: I made the system by copying the bin folder from a recent Yeti build.
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: bin/
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: addin-db-002
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: No folder like that, addon-modules but no add*-db*
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: That can be found under Robust and under instances.
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: there is one since first start
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bin/addin-db-002
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: if you don't have it... well no need to delete then :p
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: it will be created on startup
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: Ah, might be one now. Can't get there from here. will track it down and delete it.
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: well think i did fix another little bug today
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: have KFM half broken .. :p
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: great
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: i may leave it out for a while
[11:50] Kayaker Magic: WHAT?! I'll die without KFM!
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: well have issues with compatibilty with older regions
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does that mean it is less or more broken compared to last week?
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I was wondering that.
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: its kinda working fine on region
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so less broken
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: i didn't much on it this last week
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: whats KFM?
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: still don't understand the SL ping pong
[11:51] Kayaker Magic: llSetKeyframedMotion
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Key Frame Motion
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: guess ill let those changes out of 0.9.1.1. Snail release
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: i want to make it soon
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: I use llSetKeyframedMotion for lots and lots of smoothly moving boats, critters, things other people use physics for.
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well i changed its math
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: and made it use interpolation more and also on angular velocity
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: so it fixed a bug or created one?
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: so long constant velocities can mean 4 updates per second
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: but is did reduced its time resolution
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: i make it run now on heartbeat
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: so 90 something ms
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Sounds like an optimization to lower server time and bandwidth.
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: on default heartbeat
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: but as i said compatibitly with stored keyframes and older regions crossings.. duhhh
[11:56] Kayaker Magic: Ah, stored keyframes in the state of prims. I see.
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: the motion state
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: not the provided frames.. those are ok
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour already. This hour went by quickly. Any last minute comments, or questions?
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: yes
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: about the viewer for firestorm
[12:00] Kayaker Magic: I've been having a problem with sending IMs from my regions to people, I get "message not saved, avatar not logged on", but if I move to for example Wright Plaza and sent the IM again, it says "message saved"
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: when is it going to be ok for opensim release
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: It hasn't been that long since 0.9.1 was released.
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: AFAIK there will not be any FS release this side of Christmas
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because LL has a no-change window from mid december till over new years
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: 9.0.01 was also released soon after 0.9.00
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: we get more bug reports after a release
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: the Release candidate we used to had where just ignored
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I see that the FS site lists a 6.3 version for Linux but it appears to be an SL version. I don't see the equivalent release for OpenSim.
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: the ppl that did look to those are the same that look to master basicly
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: so i changed the release cycle
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: FS held of an Opensim release because of Ubit saying it was crashing older regions
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The FS opensim repository has not had any update for 7 months 18 days
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I think this is a good time to call the meeting to a close for today. We are now just under two weeks until this years OSCC.
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: well as i said, we had some bug reports since the release
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: so i plan to release the respective fixes
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: thats for the FS viewer compatibility?
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: go ask FS about their compatibilty
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: well they are holding back releasing for Opensim because of your statement right?
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: that is what the head dev posted
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they don't have anyone who can work on it
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or will
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: so we wont see an official Firestorm BoM release for Opensim?
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to ask them Arielle
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: this is not a FS devs meeting, go ask them
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: the hold up is on this end Gavin
[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: whatever
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: no it is not
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: yeah whatever
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: they intended to release it till Ubit mentioned it was breaking older sims
[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it is not
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: go read right
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: they intended to release a SL viewer and call it opensim also
[12:10] Arielle Popstar: quote: In my previous blog post I said we would provide an “as-is” download of this release for Opensim. However, I have been informed that this update will actually cause Opensim regions to crash upon login.
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: https://www.firestormviewer.org/firestorm-6-3-2-58052-with-bom/
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: yes.. read that well
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: ( hint: “as-is” )
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: and i see on Mantis that Firestorm 6.0.2.56680 is buggered too?
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: causing issues with viewer cache?
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: all viewers have issues.. as opensim.. uff
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: are you putting in BoM capability Gavin?
[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: expect a new Dayturn build by this week-end
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: but you can clean them out of dayturn :)
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: like WHY viewers loose prims on the pipeline
[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: eventually, yes Arielle
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: nod
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: they get the udp.. them loose them
[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but there are a bunch of other things higher up in the queue
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: we can even sometimes click in air, and a countour shows up
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: sometimes even the full prim shows up
[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right now I am overhauling the coroutine/event handling/llsingleton machinery
[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus the windows installer has gotten another round
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: well this is old
[12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and hiding some SL stuff poking through here and there
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: fs was a total disaster on attachments
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: and guess sl viewer also
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: better now
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: but they do lose prims somewhere
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: specially if get 2 many