Chat log from the meeting on 2019-10-29

[11:03] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Let's wait a few minutes before we get started to see who shows up.
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I was already on my way but I had one last thing (or so I thought) to be done to upgrade a test grid to the new code release.
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Let's get started.
[11:07] Marcus Llewellyn: Just FYI, Crista has promised to update her official Wifi repo for 0.9.1.0. Not sure how soon, but hopefully soonish.
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Hello, everyone and welcome again to the weekly Open Simulator developer meeting.
[11:07] snik.snoodle @britgrid.com:8002: Thanks Andrew
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Some exciting news this week. We now have a new release of OpenSim. The 0.9.1 version has been released.
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: should be easy for her
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: both me and bill tested that, and worked
[11:08] snik.snoodle @britgrid.com:8002: Yes, thats excellent news
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I was just updating the WiFi part of a 0.9.1 based test grid before I came here.
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: it is basicly changing to compile in .net4.6 as we said
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That, and some minor changes to avoid warnings on a couple of files. All well documented.
[11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: I'll make sure she knows. I rely on modules for which there is no source, so need to wait on Diva.
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: those warning don't show on default vs2017 :)
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Good to know. I compiled 0.9.1 with WiFi and only had two warrnings related to the SMTP library being considered deprecated and being told to migrate to MailKit.
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: AI Austin also has a blog telling about that.. hmm somewhere
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: i mean how to run 0.9.0.0 wifi on 0.9.1
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: i mean how compile 0.9.0.0 wifi on 0.9.1
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I had been looking at using MailKit in OS to allow support of encryption to the SMTP servers.
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: well that.. :)
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: Maria's post about 0.91 seems ok now
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It does.
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I obtained the Diva files from http://openvce.net/resources/downloads/diva-wifi/
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: unlike other programs we will make a full extensive list of changes, like including all the mantis numbers.. gezz
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: i mean we will NOT make...
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: 99% of ppl don't care..
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Probably not for some time. I was including that information when summarizing the megadump changes.
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: did we miss any major feature on release notes?
[11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: Auto-diffing INI files from last version? >:)
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Not that I can think of off-hand.
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org grins at Marcus
[11:17] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: only thing I noticed, is that support for the new estate panels was added
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: thats your part of the pain Marcus :p
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: the estate panel is there
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: but.. its such a minor thing
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I ran diffs of the OpenSim.ini and Robust.ini between 0.9.0.1 and 0.9.1 and there wasn't anything I had to do.
[11:19] Marcus Llewellyn: Inquiring minds want to know.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: and viewerAssets.. disable just bc broken FS
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: etc
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The biggest changes I noticed was in the osslEnable file.
[11:20] Marcus Llewellyn: Because of new functions, or are there changes to how old and new are enabled?
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Some new functions and there is also a few changes to the default permissions on some of the previously existing functions.
[11:21] Marcus Llewellyn nods amiably.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: rebalance of default leveçs/rights etc
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: most new ossl aren't even there now
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: the have no level/rights to set
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: All the functions that are always enabled are no longer listed in the enable file. You are now directed to look at the web site.
[11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: That doesn't sound laborious. :)
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: One less thing to keep up to date. :)
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Oh. One other important announcement.
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I believe this weekend is the one where the clocks in Canada (and the US?) change. That will affect the meeting time for those of you who are not in those countries.
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: bahh already changed in EU andrew
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The clock time changes always result in some people showing up an hour early or hour late when the clocks change.
[11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: As well as a discussion about what time zone we should all use. Let's not do that. lol
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org nods
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Just thought I should mention it so people can keep it in mind.
[11:30] Marcus Llewellyn: Anyone mind if I say a few things about OSCC?
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: yeah we should use UTC
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: as a international platform
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I was thinking about mentioning that as its coming up in another month and a half. Go ahead, Marcus.
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: are its regions on 0.9.1 now?
[11:31] Marcus Llewellyn: For now really just wanted to share that I finally, FINALLY have the access I need to do an upgrade. I've already gotten the OSCC grid up to 0.9.0.0, and am moving it to 0.9.1.0 as we speak.
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: any major issues converting things?
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: ok still on 0.900
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:32] Marcus Llewellyn: The moves from 0.8.1.0 to 0.9.0.0 has been pretty painless. Only issues have been my own stupid little oopsies.
[11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Great news, Marcus. That grid has been lagging behind for the past couple of years. Nice to hear it is going to get up to date at last.
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: expect some issues on scripts, (NPCs) etc
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: rebalance on OSSL rights .. etc
[11:33] Marcus Llewellyn: We truly haven't been happy about it either. But we managed to get Crista's ear this year, and the plan is to have 0.9.1.0 up this week.
[11:34] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah... scripts are something I'll watch out for. One of the expo regions has quite a few NPCs, so thatll be my major canary there.
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That's good. Plenty of time to catch any things that need tweaking before the start of the OSCC.
[11:34] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: I'd suggest not doing much work on scripts or things until it is on the final version and remove the scriptengine cache
[11:34] Marcus Llewellyn: We will also want to do a load test at some point. Haven't decided when yet.
[11:35] Marcus Llewellyn: Scriptcache is always nuked between versions.
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Been a while since there was a load test over there. It will be interesting to see how many avatars can get online at once.
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Marcus, you don't preserve script states?
[11:36] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: (even script states could be an issue with this magnitude of update)
[11:36] Marcus Llewellyn: Not for the OSCC grid, no. Making certain things run correctly and cleanly trumps scripts states from a year ago.
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Good point. I will wipe out the directory in the test grid.
[11:38] dj phil: Rest assured I do not have an operational shoutcast right now
[11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Marcus, true. Not to mention scripts no longer being used in the region.
[11:38] Marcus Llewellyn: The only other thing I guess I can say about OSCC is that submissions for proposals and volunteers are now open. We'd love to see you there. :)
[11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Thank you for the information, Marcus. Keep us updated on the progress of your grid updates and any load test.
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It would be a good idea to contact nebadon to let him know about any load test. He was able to bring a lot of avatars online to help boost the numbers.
[11:41] dj phil: Yeah, there is enough to ask questions ^^
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: The scripts he used are still on the grid service, I think. But this load test will have to be a purely "let's see how far we can push this" as opposed to the was we did it last time we did load tests, with justincc actively tweaking code.
[11:43] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org nods
[11:43] dj phil: but luckily Ubit has not added osForceListenMusic (uuid) yet ^^
[11:43] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: should be no issue.. acording to a FS dev opensim only has 5 users..
[11:44] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It will be interesting to see how the grid holds up when a lot of people show up using mesh based avatars.
[11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: That's two more than high fidelity has. ;)
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: ohh good idea Phil
[11:44] dj phil: Wow finally i have good idea ^^
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: echo "add osForceListenMusic" > TODO.txt
[11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: Mesh avatars have been common at the conference for the last couple years. But yeah, lots of code changes since then.
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Oh, good. Ubit now only has one item on the TODO list. :)
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: about npcs marcus.. they now do need rights to be on a parcel..
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: or may need..
[11:48] Marcus Llewellyn: Hmm. Their names must be listed on restricted parcels?
[11:48] Bill Blight: Easiest way is make sure the NPC is a group member ..
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: Fred forgot that once and did got a funny piramid of NPCs are region edge :)
[11:48] Marcus Llewellyn: heh
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: the pic was at old g+
[11:49] Pius Noel: Tuesday is the day I'm usually in my hacker space, so I cant attend here
[11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: Fred is the one who prolly has the largest contingent of NPCs on the OSCC grid, so glad he's already aware of it.
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds like a doc to summarize the things to watch out for when upgrading is needed if not already in the release notes.
[11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: +1 Andrew
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: np, Plus. Happy to have you any time you can attend.
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: A few of the large grids have started talking about upgrading to 0.9 so now they can upgrade all the way to 0.9.1.
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: some did upgrade to 0.9.1 already
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: or hybrids based on it, of course
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:52] Bill Blight: been on 9x code for almost 3 years
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, you rebel you. ;)
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well osgrid is on Yeti now :)
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well LBSA is
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: and we are here :)
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: well a Yeti that does look a lot like Snail.. but details
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Digiworldz is on a hybrid of 0.9, iirc. Kitely is thinking of updating.
[11:53] Pius Noel: I will upgrade my private test grid tomorrow
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: well we will move on as we can...
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: and will drop suport of older ones
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: including not bother viewer devs about them
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: i may send a email about 0.8x end of life
[11:55] Pius Noel: btw. what are your viewer suggestions?
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: that is, till now i still look to 0.8 and add code hacks to suport it
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: will no longer do that..
[11:56] Pius Noel: so far I've been using Firestorm most of the time
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: eventually remove the ones present
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and will not bother viewers about 0.8 things
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: guess will do the same about 0.9.0.x soon also
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: the main reasons why we don't have a fs 6.3.x release for opensim
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: future.. lets see...
[11:58] Bill Blight: Sometimes you have to burn a bridge to keep the enemy from following ...
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: openstorm is fs6.3.4 with a few extras, and seems almost ok on 0.91
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: bet dayturn will also
[11:59] dj phil: where is openstorm 6.3.4 ?
[12:00] Marcus Llewellyn: In Bill's super secret bunker.
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL just released a viewer with an updated voice client, so I probably will make a release of that in a couple days if it works OK
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: it works on mac and linux?
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what does?
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the voice client?
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, one long standing problem with viewers is the alpha bug. Any chance that is going to get fixed in the not too distant future?
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what is the alpha bug?
[12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: If you mean where lphas z-fight, that's not a viewer bug.
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: An alpha on an object sometimes results in an object appearing in the foreground instead of background.
[12:02] Marcus Llewellyn: That will happen when alpha blending is used. To prevent it use masking.
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the only case I see that is with meshes
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: alpha "bug" is a deep level issue..
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and I have no idea how to fix it
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Its been a very long standing bug.
[12:02] Pius Noel: there is a workaround, that doesn't fix everything, but works quite well
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: yeap builders need to avoid blending etc
[12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: It isn't a bug. It's just how OpenGL works.
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Just thought I'd ask. Sometimes just asking prods someone to look in to it and next thing you know it gets fixed. :)
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually you don't use alpha blending anywhere when you have mesh on mesh
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: damm irritating one should say...
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: apparently LL have hired two rendering developers
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and I have seen some fixes coming out of that already
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so we shall see :-)
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: or in worse case, not see :p
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sometimes you are not meant to see
[12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: Let's take bets on how long it takes for them to die from fright.
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There was a Dayturn release lat week that has an update for detecting memory on AMD cards
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: main thing about tech is that it should be invisible
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: last
[12:07] Marcus Llewellyn: At this point, when it comes the the viewers renderer I'm kinda harsh. Vukanize it or go home.
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is a Windows specific update
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll have to look at the settings. I don't know about an alpha blending or masking setting anywhere.
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in many cases the viewer would detect only the built in Intel graphcis and report that
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: its on objects edit .. textures etc
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I purchased some trees from a well known SL developer on Kitley and they use alpha blending. Very visible under certain lighting conditions
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, ok. I'll have a look later.
[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is in the Texture tab in the Tool floater
[12:09] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah. Anyone with a garden should go around changing all their plants to use masking. Won't be as pretty right up close, but man will it stop all that z-buffer clutter.
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: some clothes have same issue
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: and of course never use a texture with alpha unless really needed
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Useful to know as I was once considering making a garden region.
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: have a few that are suposed to be solid, and have alpha, triggering the issue
[12:11] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah. If you don't want alpha effects, do not use PNG or anything else that has an alpha channel. Use a 24-bit Targa instead.
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: it will also improve fps a tiny :)
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't used tga files in ages.
[12:12] Pius Noel: me too
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: The last time was decades ago when I was doing some programming for a graphics library for a Targa brand graphics card.
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: well just keep in mind, some textures around representing solid things do have alpha and so that issue
[12:13] Marcus Llewellyn: Lossless (or slightly compressed) JPEG will work too.
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I use JPEG for all my mesh textures
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: its mesh or any prim
[12:14] Bill Blight: depending on your graphics program , you can strip the alpha channel from PNGs before saving as well ..
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: except for glass things which are supposed to be transparent and has an outside and inside
[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that can be fixed with a little trix
[12:15] Marcus Llewellyn: That's true Bill. Sadly, internally all PNGs are treated as though they have an alpha channel.
[12:16] Marcus Llewellyn: If you absolutely don't want alpha effects, it's 24-bit TGA, JPG, or BMP you want.
[12:16] Bill Blight: for sure
[12:17] Bill Blight: I use TGA's if it is anything that has text on it, that needs to be legible in world
[12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: Either BMP or TGA will remain pretty pristine after J2K. PNG too, but again... alpha. :)
[12:19] Marcus Llewellyn: We should use KTX internally instead anyway. >:)
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: tell that to gavin :)
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: KTX?
[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good luck rewriting the renderer
[12:19] Marcus Llewellyn: It's a Khronos GPU image standard.
[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and convert all current content
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Never heard anything about it.
[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: never
[12:21] Bill Blight: That is he biggest thing holding everything back, is Legacy content
[12:21] Bill Blight: (and people not wanting to update it)
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: things like that born and die everyday (formats)
[12:22] Bill Blight: USER: I want he newest and greatest rendering stuff, DEV: Ok but you will have to remake all your mesh and textures. USER: FUCK THAT
[12:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Sure. KTX will prolly stick for a while though. Especially cuz mobile.
[12:22] Pius Noel: ;)
[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly which mobile is that used with?
[12:23] Marcus Llewellyn: Android. iOS. Unity. Unreal.
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Is KTX replacing Cuda?
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: guess Unity and Unreal is just bc somethings use it :)
[12:23] Marcus Llewellyn: Nooo.... very different things.
[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: never heard it supported by Apple at all
[12:24] Marcus Llewellyn: KTX isn't really meant as an exhange format. It's more intended to be optimized as a final step when packaging your product.
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: iOS does not use OpenGL any more
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, ok. Probably explains why I don't know about it.
[12:24] Marcus Llewellyn: Forgot about Metal, yeah
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so that is about 1.3 billion not using it
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: We've been going for almost an hour and a half. Anything more for today?