Chat log from the meeting on 2019-10-22

[11:02] Kayaker Magic: I hope Gavin shows up.
[11:02] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Viewer related questions today, Kayaker?
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: Actually, I wanted to ask him why some code, like XEngine, compiles on x86 processors and on ARM processors, but other code, like YEngine, works onx86 but not ARM.
[11:04] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It won't compile or doesn't work?
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: does not work on arm?
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: who told you that?
[11:05] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: The usual reason why something may not work is usually Library support, but I was not aware Yengine had that problem,
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Compiles, then doesn't work. I suppose it is a mono question, but Gavin did get XEngine to work on ARM
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: I tried switching to YEngine on a working Pi 4 system, and it failed to come up.... I forget what it said in the log.
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: I'll try angain before next week and take notes.
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: strange
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: well let me know
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: i have no arms
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: will do!
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: lol
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: well arm cpus :p
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I have several arm cpus but never tried running OS on any of them.
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: I had an epiphany about threat level and the check-before-calling OSSL function:
[11:08] Ubit Umarov hides
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: My function cannot know the threat level of another function, but I can arrange to just return FALSE for any function that is determined only by threat level.
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: So I wrote a short and sweet OSSL function that just returns the results of the internal check allow permissions function.
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: I'm still testing, but hope to submit it for inclusion in master this week.
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sounds like a plan, Kayaker.
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I always thought there should be a relatively simple solution to the issue(s) that were previously discussed.
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Because it cannot see threat levels, it will sometime return false negatives, but only in places like LBSA plaza where they have disabled the ossl Allow permissions.
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Any one have some questions or comments related to OS while we are waiting to see if Gavin will be here today?
[11:23] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org hears crickets
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Ubit, was I correct about those overloaded OSSL functions that didn't do threat level checking?
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: you spoke about several
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: and for me OSSL is just opensim set of LSL extensions
[11:26] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: Many of the math functions and such don't have threat levels, why would they need them
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: to totally disable it is nonsense
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: of the SL pure CLONE days
[11:26] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: Opensimulator without Opensimulator functions is Halcyon
[11:26] Kayaker Magic: For the record: Some of the OSSL function have several different overloaded versions. I noticed that a few of those did not do the Allow permissions or threat level check on all the overloaded version.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: even considering some still seem to live on that
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: This means that those functions can be called even if disabled by the region owner in the osslEnable.ini file.
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: osSlerp is a math helper
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: etc
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm wondering why osGetSunParam has restrictions on its use. I can understand the restrictions for setting the sun info.
[11:27] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: Why do things like math functions need restrictions?
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: those sun things are just half broken
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: our enviromente control is a mess
[11:28] Kayaker Magic: I submitted mantis 8605 about it, but marked it private since it is a security issue.
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: well like a lot other things
[11:29] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: how is osApproxEquals a security issue?
[11:30] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: or osRound
osVecMagSquare
osVecDistSquare
osAngleBetween
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: well as i said, there a was a school to totaly disable OSSL; LS etc
[11:32] Kayaker Magic: Ah, that is a different mantis 8608. If you disable all OSSL functions, those innocuous ones will still work. Just suggesting consistency: dissable means disable..
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: im out that school
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: and i'm sure not doing that by adding a check on every call
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: that is the wrong way of doing it
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: the silly way..
[11:32] Kayaker Magic: Or re-write the documentation to say "disable all OSSL functions means only disable the dangerous ones"
[11:32] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: I"d never be in that school either
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: a full API disable should be done on a different way
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: that i will not do, because for me OSSL == opensim
[11:33] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: **
[11:33] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: That
[11:33] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: yeah
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: you may see a few fights inside core about that.. details
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, hard for me to imagine anyone wanting to disable them, but if they do, it would be nice if it worked.
[11:34] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: if they do hey can use Halcyon .. :P
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: some old ideas are stuck deeply
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: ( i also have my own set :p )
[11:34] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: Like wanting to drive your car with No Wheels ... go ride a train ... LOL
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well ive no idea about EEP
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: no point changing current enviroment settings without seening it
[11:41] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: I don't think LL has much of an idea about it , as much trouble as they are having with it .
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: they did change all servers
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: guess having issues on viewers ???
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: only did read about some black starts
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: gezzz we do need change this sits to beds
[11:45] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: since ppl always fall a sleep on this meetings
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: Last week was more acrimonious
[11:47] Ubit Umarov flüstert: well ive no news about FS
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: all fs devs are afk for me again :)
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: no idea how openstorm is now broken
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: but it is also a viewer for 0.9.1.0 only
[11:49] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: how is it broken?
[11:49] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: I"m using it now
[11:49] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't fall asleep, but I do timeshare.
[11:49] Kayaker Magic: Well, allowing Bill to play with it would break anything!
[11:50] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: i'm almost falling asleep but that is because I've been fighting a cold for the last couple of days. So far I'm holding it at bay.
[11:50] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am using FS64 5.1.7x.. works fine
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: 6.0.2 also works
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: even 6.3.x works
[11:51] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: whatever mine works fine, no comment on your busted computers
[11:51] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: :P
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: but idea of 6.3 is BoM suport.. and its potential issues on older regions
[11:52] Bill Blight: Openstorm is based on the 6.3.3 code now
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: really not in the mood to let viewers to decide that opensim 0.8 is now dead
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: even older 0.9
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... The changes to the osslEnable.ini file means some changes will be needed to the OS wiki pages.
[11:53] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am using an updated FS in SL, have not noticed any improvement over OS
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: major is BoM
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: but will take some time to "creators" to use it
[11:54] Bill Blight: BOM and Animesh since 6.02+
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: yes animesh
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Good. I'm on 6.0.2
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Andrew: I submitted a mantis about which functions were different in the code vs the osslEnable vs the wiki.
[11:54] Bill Blight: new estate panels
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: selby there are two things at you back that do move
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: those 2 guards..
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: that bill tells are not guards
[11:55] Bill Blight: LOL
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: well 3 things now
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Bouncers? :)
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: so you need fs 6.0.2 to see that
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: well here.. useless at kitely
[11:56] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I noticed the changed estate panel -- but saw no improvement
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: yeah here also
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: just did add some info on the bans
[11:57] Bill Blight: when they were banned, and who banned them
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: well here with a 6.3 test viewer or openstorm :)
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see the additional information in the estate panel under 6.0.2
[11:59] Bill Blight: not added to 6.02
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: fs 6.0 still does not have that new UI
[11:59] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: My point is that I only care about changes if they affect what I do. These did not -- I maybe deal with banning people once a year or so.
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: well guess not many changes will hit kitely while it stays on 0.8x
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: 6.0.2 is still the latest version of FS available for Linux.
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: in fact fear you will not be able to update viewers also
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: if i "lose" the fight with FS and others
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: to mk them keep suporting a extended range of opensim (and forks) versions
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: but we will also end up having trouble keeping hacks to suport 0.8 and older versions
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: i actually have pressure to kill it :p
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: ie no HG etc..
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: It is just past the top of the hour. No sign of Gavin so Kayaker's questions will have to wait for another week.
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: what questions where those?
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: bill is now a viewer dev also
[12:04] Kayaker Magic: About why YEngine doesn't run on ARM and XEngine does.
[12:04] Ubit Umarov laughts like crazy
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, About YEngine on an ARM based processor.
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: ohh thats not viewer question
[12:04] Kayaker Magic: Gavin implied he did something to get XEngine to work, I'd like to switch to YEngine
[12:04] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I'll test it better and report back next week.
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: xengined did work fine
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: Y uses dynamic functions
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: mb the issue is on that
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: but arm are linux/mono
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: should work fine
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: so.. ive no idea
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Any known issues with the latest mono?
[12:06] Bill Blight: None I am aware of, using it on many regions
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Latest is up to 6.4.0 according to their download page.
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: gezz
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: they are still changing that fast
[12:07] Kayaker Magic: I'm building with mono 6.3 or higher, no problems.
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: They seem to have been bumping version numbers quite a lot. I don't even think I remember the 5 series
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I just checked and I see I have 6.4.0 on my machine.
[12:09] Bill Blight: don't blink or you will miss Mono 8 ... LOL
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: At the rate they are going that could happen.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything more for today or shall we wrap things up for this week?
[12:10] Kayaker Magic: it's a wrap!
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: saran?  ;)
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, that will do it for this week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I just checked and I do have one machine that has mono 5.12 on it.
[12:12] Bill Blight: ugg
[12:12] Bill Blight: that is the evil version I think
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Another evil version?
[12:13] Bill Blight: I think it was 5.12 I had a ton of issues with
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: well we do compile things on 5.12
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: and release will be comp on 5.12
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... odd. I just did a yum update on that remote machine and now it reports mono 6.4.0 but it didn't update any mono packages.
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: i had to totally remove mono on one update
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: the automatic did a mess
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: don't remember the details
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: it was working fine for bill, not for me.. hmm something
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Good to know. I will rebuild the OS on that remote machine using 6.4 and update the grid.
[12:17] Bill Blight: I did have an upgrade issue on a different machine and had to purge and re-install the 6 version