Chat log from the meeting on 2019-09-17

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[10:50] Kayaker Magic: Did you see I put an example script in your osSlerp documentation?
[10:51] Kayaker Magic: This stick is rotating using osSlerp to calculate the rotations!
[10:52] Kayaker Magic: llSetKeyframedMotion would be better, this was just to test osSlerp. And it works great!
[10:53] Kayaker Magic: The hard part was learning YAML (Yet Another Markup Language) to put an example in the OpenSim Wiki page.
[10:54] Kayaker Magic: Why did the first Wiki not just use HTML?
[11:02] Gavin.Hird indexing repositories
[11:02] Bill.Blight <-- Merging repositories
[11:04] Gavin.Hird I have collected all the 175 repositories involved in building the viewer at some stage in one location for my own reference
[11:04] Andrew.Hellershanks Gavin, 175 repos??
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks You must have multiple versions. I didn't think it would take that many repos to build a viewer and its dependencies.
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: It uses lots of other open source libraries
[11:08] Bill.Blight Agent Smith is stealing your repositories
[11:09] Gavin.Hird they are free to steal
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks Who wants to get us started this week?
[11:10] Gavin.Hird it will set you back about 40 GB of disk space
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: OK, back to OpenSim, I wrote a test script for the new OSSL function osSlerp, it works great! This wiggling stick over the bar is running it.
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: And the hard part is I learned YAML (Yet Another Markup Langurage) and added it as an example to the Wiki.
[11:11] Gavin.Hird nice
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks Thank you for doing that, Kayaker.
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: llSetKeyframedMotion would be better for this, but it is just a test.
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks I'll have a look at it as I still haven't figured out why it is needed.
[11:12] Gavin.Hird ditto
[11:12] Ubit.Umarov ( of course kfm also uses slerp )
[11:13] Ubit.Umarov ( just the float version of it on libomv, of course )
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: Well, before llSetKeyframedMotion worked in OpenSim, I had to write my own Lerp function in LSL
[11:13] Ubit.Umarov well standard stuff.. and just a aux function
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: I suppose osSlerp is a math function to "calculate a rotation between two others"
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: that sounds useful.
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: I guess you have to be a math geek to appreciate it.
[11:16] Bill.Blight
[11:16] Ubit.Umarov or someone needing to interpolate rotations :p
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, Is that going to make some eyes glaze over? :)
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: LOL
[11:19] Bill.Blight HAHA
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: Looks like everyone has already glazed over....
[11:19] Bill.Blight Maths is hard ........ Sometimes
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks I like math. This is getting in to areas of math I've not needed to deal with and as I'm not in to graphics theory quaternions and now slerp were new to me.
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: In my spare time I want to do a tutorial video for LSL programmers: "How to think in rotations"
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: I think I have some spare time scheduled for 2031
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks :)
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks I have a viewer related question for Gavin.
[11:22] Gavin.Hird sure
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks Gavin, It has been reported to me that there is a viewer problem in Firestorm regarding sending of group invites. IIRC, the problem is in picking the name of the person you want to invite in to a group. Are you aware of any problems related to group invites in dayturn?
[11:24] Gavin.Hird no, but I cannot say it has been extensively tested
[11:24] Bill.Blight It may also have to do with what group module you are using
[11:24] Gavin.Hird picking from the same grid?
[11:25] Gavin.Hird could very well be Bill
[11:25] Gavin.Hird but
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks ok. I wanted to join two closed groups in Kitely and the person who wanted to invite me couldn't do it due to a known problem in FS. Ilan suggested switching to Singularity to send the invite. That was tried later and it didn't work either.
[11:25] Gavin.Hird Firestorm has more new SL code for that
[11:26] Gavin.Hird so there might be some interaction there too
[11:26] Selby.Evans I think I have seen that problem -- I cannot reproduce it reliably, though -- it is just there sometimes.
[11:26] Gavin.Hird LL have been tweaking their group functions over and over lately
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks ok. Kitely is still running 0.8 and they say they have 400+ patches to the code. I have no idea which groups system they are using.
[11:27] Gavin.Hird I have stopped testing on Kitely (almost) because it behaves very different from other grids
[11:28] Bill.Blight ditto
[11:28] Gavin.Hird I am not going to have viewer code specifically for Kitely
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar do they have their own viewer then?
[11:28] Gavin.Hird no
[11:28] Kayaker Magic: Kitely has refused to upgrade to 0.9 since Melanie dumped 9000 changes on the code and made it unstable in their opinion.
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar think it was 5000 but yeah
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks I help out a group of people who are using Kitely and that issue came up recently.
[11:29] Gavin.Hird what they have is already heavily modified
[11:29] Kayaker Magic: Since then Kitely has fixed a bunch of bugs themselves and merging back to 0.9 would be painful and time consuming for them.
[11:30] Ubit.Umarov melanie did not dump 9000 changes, i did :p
[11:30] Gavin.Hird hehe¨
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar on her authority
[11:30] Ubit.Umarov after her permission..
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks I started to go through all the changes to summarize the mega dump. I may have been closer to 3,000. I don't remember now. I still have about 2,000 changes to go through.
[11:30] Gavin.Hird it is fine they fix bugs for themselved but if nobody else know about it, it is damn hard to support
[11:31] Ubit.Umarov well and we are here, using them :p
[11:31] Arielle.Popstar yes they could have pushed changes back to a .8.2 master and kept that going
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks Kitely is starting to talk about 0.9
[11:31] Ubit.Umarov well with some updates
[11:32] Arielle.Popstar lot of people would have appreciated it back then
[11:32] Ubit.Umarov and kitely position as i remember was never againt's 0.9x
[11:32] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I get the impression that one of Kitely's education customers is pushing for 0.9. If not having 0.9 would loose customers, Kitely might have to do the merge.
[11:33] Ubit.Umarov but about the problems of integrating 0.9x with their own changes and infrastrure
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks You should check the meeting log for the most recent Kitely gathering. IIRC, they said something along the lines of they will evaluate 0.9 and see what patches of theirs needs to be applied to it. I don't recall exactly if they also mentioned submitting some of the patches back to the OS code base.
[11:34] Selby.Evans Kitely expects to go to 0.9, but wants to delay for other work, they may be pressured by a customer and move the date up.
[11:34] Ubit.Umarov they know we are here to talk and help etc
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks nods
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks I think Kitely still has their hands full with the new Organizations thing and HiFiKi.
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar they have a core dev still dont they?
[11:35] Ubit.Umarov i did had a nice chat about that with ilan a few weeks ago
[11:35] Ubit.Umarov when i was at their sundays meeting
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks Arielle, I don't know who they have helping out with code development.
[11:36] Kayaker Magic: Kitely is a small team: Only two guys.
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar one of the core team is listed as such
[11:36] Selby.Evans I understood that Oren was a core
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks I know it isn't me. :)
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar surprised the core here didnt realize that
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks I haven't seen or heard anything from Oren in quite a while.
[11:37] Ubit.Umarov kitely is a well organized comercial operation. That defines own set of priorities
[11:37] Gavin.Hird could it be because he has not submitted anything for ages
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar but he is still listed as being on the core dev team
[11:38] Gavin.Hird it is a list
[11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks Gavin, it isn't just that. I haven't even seen him in the core developer IRC channel in ages.
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar of 6
[11:38] Ramesh.Origin Oren is still with kitely, working on HiKiFi at the moment
[11:38] Ubit.Umarov all core devs are listed.. we never remove one
[11:38] Ubit.Umarov just change its status/rights
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar you did a while back Ubit
[11:38] Ubit.Umarov well one was removed long long bf me i think
[11:38] Selby.Evans Oren has been working on HiFIKi and Organizations. Organizations is paying off
[11:39] Ubit.Umarov justin is still a core dev, or adam :p
[11:39] Bill.Blight Well and that is the main focus of Kitely is the "Pay off" , so it does not benefit their dev to share or promote activity with a "Free" , opensource project ..
[11:39] Ramesh.Origin I interacted with Oren, last on Jun 25 ... about the kitely API for organizations
[11:40] Ubit.Umarov and they have the right to return, just telling hi, im back
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar not active nor can they have a vote on submissions
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar according to the rules they set up
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar 6 months of inactivity forfeits voting rights if i remember
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks Ramesh, you asked me about animated mesh. There are several examples of that in this region.
[11:42] Ramesh.Origin OK camming
[11:42] Gavin.Hird New viewer versions out at the usual place
[11:42] Gavin.Hird there are fixes for animesh in it
[11:42] Bill Blight: you walked between two animated mesh when you came in
[11:43] Kayaker Magic: The easy examples of animated mesh is to animate mesh bodies. There are much more powerful uses possible.
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Ramesh, there is a small figure walking around on top of the bar and there are two dancing figures just outside this area in the direction you are facing.
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: anim objects must be a avatar mesh part
[11:43] Gavin.Hird which viewer are you on Ramesh?
[11:43] Bill Blight: Yes these are simple examples, but it can get a lot more complicated and useful
[11:43] Ramesh.Origin It could be that I am using an old Firestorm viewer
[11:43] Ramesh.Origin because none of these are animating
[11:43] Bill Blight: but they have to be rigged with avatar bones
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: ( ie have avatar joints etc )
[11:43] Gavin.Hird yup
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I think you came up for a name for animated mesh in OS since the term animesh is an SL one.
[11:44] Bill Blight: yep
[11:44] Bill Blight: Well, I found out, SL does not own the name Animesh
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: i still prefer animWhat :p
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:44] Bill Blight: was just gonna say that
[11:45] Gavin.Hird animThat
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: I have heard 2 versions: You must make a mesh around the Bento bones to use animesh, and 2) it is possible to make your own armature and animate it with animesh.
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: I hope the second one is true, and want to learn to do that.
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: does not need to be bento avatar
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I would think you could use Blender to rig up a mesh object to be animated.
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: no kayaker
[11:45] Gavin.Hird you have to use the bento rigging, but you can selectively use the bones you want
[11:45] Bill Blight: yes it is true, but the names of the armature matters unless you make your own totally customized anim
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: it must match the avatar
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: animwhat is just a twisted reuse of the avatar animation system
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. You have to name the parts of the rigging? I didn't know that. I haven't looked that deeply in to rigging mesh as I have too many other projects already on the go.
[11:47] Gavin.Hird so you can make your twisted sister
[11:47] Bill Blight: you have to have use a viewer that is animesh enabled
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: lol
[11:47] Bill Blight: or nada
[11:47] Bill Blight: zip
[11:47] Bill Blight: zilch
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: and on a 0.91 snail region
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:47] Bill Blight: yeppers
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that is also a music group reference. :)
[11:48] Gavin.Hird it is :-))
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: ( some ugly ppl replace the name Snail bahh )
[11:48] Bill Blight: but you don't evidently need a new viewer to see double size particles ... (shameless plug)
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I just saw the reference to a change in max particle size. I will need to update my particle generator device to handle the new max size.
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: A better idea would be to set the limit in my generator based on whether the larger size was possible based on the version of OS being run.
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Getting close to the top of the hour once more. Anyone else have a topic they wanted to discuss?
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks looks at Kayaker
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:51] Ramesh.Origin Not for me Andrew
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well last code changes hopefull made regions support new B0M things
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: allowing viewer devs to test it
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: Question for Gavin and Ubit: Why does YEngine not work when I run OpenSim on a Raspberry Pi?
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: without killing the region
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: do the blocks to old regions work proper?
[11:52] Gavin.Hird I have not even tested it Kayaker
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well it is not a viewer thing, and it should work
[11:53] Gavin.Hird does it need an arm library Ubit?
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: that will be fun
[11:53] Kayaker Magic: I tested it, the region didnot finish starting.
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: no its fully managed code now
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: I just received a 4GB Pi 4 yesterday. I could try building OS on it some day.
[11:53] Gavin.Hird so it compiles in mono
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, what do you need to build OS for a Pi?
[11:54] Gavin.Hird I have a zip you can use
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: always good idea to install mono complete
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Need? Where does need come into any of this?
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, right. Should be easy enough.
[11:54] Gavin.Hird
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Kayaker.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: ( you do need arm libs for the unmanaged parts like ode)
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't decided yet what I plan on doing with the Pi 4.
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: I built from Gavin's sources, and it does run on my Pi4. Have a region up for 2 weeks on OSGrid.
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: ( and don't forget to change default engine on opensim.ini also )
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker: Nice. Do you use heatsinks on the Pi4?
[11:56] Gavin.Hird but it does not have Yengine or Animesh in it
[11:56] Kayaker Magic: I put heatsinks and a fan, but I am paranoid.
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I have heatsinks for mine but don't see how they would be all that effective when the Pi gets put in to a box.
[11:57] Gavin.Hird if it reach 80 deg C it trottles to 600 Mhz
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: so its a 0.9.0x version ?
[11:57] Gavin.Hird mine?
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: the one kayaker is testing..
[11:58] Gavin.Hird it is 0.9.1--
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: well 0.91 has animwhat and Y
[11:58] Gavin.Hird not in my version, :-))
[11:58] Gavin.Hird not yet
[11:58] Gavin.Hird but it has osSlerp
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: saving memory taking things out?
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, can you use the latest source from the OS repo and just replace some (or all?) of the dll's with the ones from your source tree?
[11:59] Gavin.Hird possibly
[11:59] Gavin.Hird the source is here
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: yeah you only need arm native code libs
[12:00] Gavin.Hird for Yengine?
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: no, to compile .91 from master and run it
[12:01] Gavin.Hird the zip I pointed to has the arm compiled libs in the right place
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: we just don't ship arm native libs
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be useful to determine if there are any portability type issues in YEngine by getting it to run on a Pi.
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: Grrrrr
[12:02] Kayaker Magic: There is a use for OpenSim on a Pi! It is an extreme test of the code!
[12:02] Bill Blight: You can get almost as small X86 style systems now, personally I see no use for arm but that is just me ..
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, is that a no?
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: i already answered that yengine issue
[12:02] Gavin.Hird Oracle just built a supercomputer out of 1024 PIs
[12:03] Gavin.Hird so you could build a cheap grid cluster too
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: guess a tiny micro supercomputer
[12:03] Gavin.Hird at least for the simulators
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: don't see how 1024 pis can qualify as "supercomputer" this days
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, There are lots of small embedded systems available. Its a toss up as to whether one goes with arm or x86.
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: when possible 1024 I7s will not
[12:04] Bill Blight: For sure andrew, so being a toss up, why cause yourself more pain and have to recompile for arm ... :P
[12:04] Kayaker Magic: micro-super computer? Jumbo shrimp?
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: just a way of telling 1024 pis will not make a supercomputer this days :)
[12:05] Gavin.Hird :-)
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, true. I have run in to one problem where I need to build some source code on an ARM based system. It needs a library only made available for arm v7 and I'm using a box that is arm v8. The compiler doesn't like the v7 library and won't link with it. If I was on x86 it would be a non-issue.
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: intel made huge efford to keep compatibilty since 8086
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: we do pay for it in performance
[12:07] Gavin.Hird indeed
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: but was a huge market winning decision
[12:07] Bill Blight: I mean don't get me wrong, I used to develop on arm when I was doing a lot of android things, but , when you start talking about porting non-native things to it, "Just because", I prefer to spare myself the headache ..
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: even the 8086 is a direct upgrade of the 8085
[12:08] Gavin.Hird I have had to compile 3 libs as arm
[12:08] Gavin.Hird the rest runs fine on mono 6
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: a flat segments program on a 8086 is a 8085 program
[12:08] Kayaker Magic: And on mono 5.18!
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: well or vice versa
[12:08] Gavin.Hird yep
[12:09] Gavin.Hird but mono 6 is more stable and performant
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: thats how they killed motorola 68k
[12:09] Bill Blight flüstert: I'd prefer to use something like this ..
[12:09] Bill Blight:
[12:09] Bill Blight: omg what a link
[12:09] Bill Blight: wowo
[12:09] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, Mono 6 was finally released and I am updating my systems to it.
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: 68k has nothing to do with the 6809
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: If the 68k had come out a few months earlier it would have been used instead of the 808x.
[12:10] Gavin.Hird mono 6 is also built for Buster
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: yeah but motorola almost failed making it
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I was thinking the same thing, Bill
[12:10] Gavin.Hird the 88k was sort of to take over for the 68k
[12:11] Gavin.Hird but if just fizzled
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: motorola management was about to kill the micro cpus division when they finally made it work
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: The 6809 and 68k are two of my favourite microprocessors.
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: we are talking about just weeks time
[12:11] Kayaker Magic: I looked at some of those Thin Client boxes Bill, and they require a bit of hacking to break them open and load your own code on them.
[12:12] Bill Blight: I Have a little Lenovo Q190 with 8gig of ram and 500gb SSD,
[12:12] Bill Blight: some are much easier and don't require anything
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: yeah spending $ on old junk instead of donating it to me
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:13] Gavin.Hird do you have a donation button Ubit?
[12:13] Kayaker Magic: I was going to ask that!
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: no just a paypal account
[12:13] Gavin.Hird all right
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: made a button also, but didn't placed it anywhere
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: think there is a page with donation pointers for me and andrew
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:14] Kayaker Magic: I have a donate prim that goes to PayPal, I'll bring one next week and give it to you. Set it out here!
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't remember the location of that page
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: set yourself up to take gloebits too
[12:14] Gavin.Hird is the page a secret?
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: no, just i forgot its url :)
[12:15] Gavin.Hird ic...
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: the fate of opensim is in his hands :P
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: its related to a discord channel ?
[12:16] Bill Blight:
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: we will not put such things on our site, until there is a decision, even a talk about that, of course
[12:16] Gavin.Hird thx
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Took me a moment to recognize that "fundos" meant "fund os". :)
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: ahh thx bill
[12:18] Gavin.Hird I am sort of expecting LL to release EEp today
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: about BoM, as you know Bill did compile a fork of FS
[12:18] Gavin.Hird but I might be wrong
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: that does it
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: you can get it on that colorfull avatar in center
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, yes but it has dependencies on libraries not on my machine.
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: BUT do not use it on other regions
[12:19] Bill Blight: I have newer versions and will be posting a link to a repository after I get it all cleaned up
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: at least wearing the Universal thing
[12:19] Arielle Popstar: why not use on other regions?
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: BUMMMM
[12:19] Arielle Popstar: can i use it in s/l?
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: yes i havent sen any issues
[12:20] Bill Blight: (I have not killed any yet, but I don't go to any 8x or older 9x regions)
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: for SL i can only recomend the use of SL official or TPVs releases
[12:21] Bill Blight: well yes the OS versions does not have Havok support so, your experience may suck
[12:21] Arielle Popstar: i was going to use it at tommorrows s/l meeting
[12:21] Arielle Popstar: because the FS team wouldnt give me a beta fs to try out
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: well i did tested it at SL.. but can't recomend.. one should not mess with sl servers with a untested viewer

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