Chat log from the meeting on 2019-08-20

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[10:46] Sheera Khan: Did you too have probs with rezzing the stuff here?
[10:46] Ubit Umarov: not for a long time
[10:46] Ubit Umarov: and im with suicidal 3000kbps
[10:46] Ubit Umarov: on viewer
[10:47] Sheera Khan: i have the same setting as Metro has quite a good connection
[10:48] Sheera Khan: and normally the stuff here rezzes in very fast
[10:49] Sheera Khan: just today I had to wait quite some time
[10:50] Ubit Umarov: we now use viewers object cache
[10:51] Ubit Umarov: that makes rez a lot faster, except when there is no info for the region
[10:51] Sheera Khan: hmmm, that should be quite fast for me as I'm running on a ssd only system
[10:52] Ubit Umarov: try relog here and compare with last time
[10:52] Sheera Khan: brb
[10:53] Ubit.Umarov any better ?
[10:53] Sheera Khan: jupp, much faster than before :-)
[10:53] Ubit.Umarov :)
[10:55] Sheera Khan: do we have to activate that in a setting or is it a new feature of the new code?
[10:55] Ubit.Umarov auto
[10:55] Ubit.Umarov well it does have options.. but on by default if i remember :)
[10:55] Sheera Khan: that sounds reasonable ;-)
[10:56] Ubit.Umarov its a old thing on viewers, we had never cared about
[10:56] Ubit.Umarov till a few months ago when i did review lludp sending
[10:57] Sheera Khan: hehehe, sometimes one finds a gem in old stuff?
[10:57] Ubit.Umarov i did speedup code, made better reuse of memory and bandwith
[10:57] Ubit.Umarov then did wake up that missing prims ghost
[10:57] Ubit.Umarov so i also seen them
[10:58] Ubit.Umarov solution was to downgrade udp efficience
[10:58] Ubit.Umarov send less information per packet, less than it could take
[10:59] Ubit.Umarov bf that, we just had to reduce the viewer bandwith to 500kbps or less
[11:00] Ubit.Umarov well with that reduction on udp usage efficience im now here with that suicidal 3000kbps and don't notice any missing prims or terrain patchs
[11:01] Sheera Khan: I'd have guessed that the higher level protocols would be responsible for lost packets, whether to ignore them or to force a resend
[11:01] Ubit.Umarov so all points to a viewer side issue.. not new
[11:01] Ubit.Umarov its not lost packets
[11:02] Sheera Khan: I'm using full speed setting in network since quite some time... never had serious trouble with that
[11:02] Ubit.Umarov some of the prims are on the viewer.. just not rez
[11:02] Sheera Khan: but then, I'm on a 100MBit/s download connection
[11:02] Ubit.Umarov some you click on their area and they show up
[11:02] Ubit.Umarov others never show up :)
[11:03] Ubit.Umarov fs also had that with attachments
[11:04] Ubit.Umarov so guess viewers do get lost when we send things a bit faster
[11:04] Sheera Khan: I always thought the 500 kBit/s rule was there bc of possible packet loss at higher rates
[11:04] Ubit.Umarov yeah. but seems viewers also lose prims they did got and terrain
[11:05] Ubit.Umarov well as i said the only "solution" i got was to reduce the rate of sending
[11:06] Ubit.Umarov less information per udp packet
[11:06] Ubit.Umarov thx for that pgsql fix, i forgot to thank on the commit message
[11:07] Gavin.Hird no worries
[11:07] Gavin.Hird Bitbucket announced today that they will completely remove support for Mercurial in a year
[11:07] Gavin.Hird so that will be REALLY interesting
[11:07] Ubit.Umarov oh?
[11:08] Sheera Khan: Hi Leighton :-)
[11:08] Ubit.Umarov wasn't HG the future replacement of git ?
[11:08] Gavin.Hird all viewer repositories must be converted to git
[11:08] Gavin.Hird or hosted elsewhere
[11:08] Ubit.Umarov well guess not that hard
[11:09] Gavin.Hird to convert the repositories?
[11:09] Gavin.Hird super hard
[11:09] Ubit.Umarov oh ??
[11:09] Ubit.Umarov ahh well all history etc etc of course
[11:09] Gavin.Hird exactly
[11:09] Ubit.Umarov i was only thinking about the files :)
[11:09] Gavin.Hird the files are no problem
[11:09] Gavin.Hird the history....
[11:10] Ubit.Umarov forgetting when i did mess up our git and had to run call mel for help :)
[11:10] Ubit.Umarov or when by mistake i did restore 30000 Tags
[11:11] Ubit.Umarov took HOURS to delete them again :)
[11:11] Ubit.Umarov with them git was just dead in water.. 2 slow
[11:12] Ubit.Umarov in past ppl did add one tag per commit
[11:12] Gavin.Hird I guess I have to derender that barmaid again
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar do we have server dis baking?
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar server side
[11:14] Ubit.Umarov always see inventory errors on avatar items, no idea why
[11:14] Ubit.Umarov no we do not have SSA
[11:15] Arielle.Popstar oh i thought we did
[11:15] Arielle.Popstar did we not have it before?
[11:15] Ubit.Umarov thats another idea i never understud
[11:15] Arielle.Popstar oh?
[11:15] Ubit.Umarov unless they plan to have SL only on tablets and old phones
[11:16] Gavin.Hird it is baked on the region, but the textures are sent to Robust where they can be retrieved for reuse
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar new phones and tablets run good with s/l
[11:16] Ubit.Umarov no it is not baked on region here
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar well except master as it crashes Lumiya
[11:16] Ubit.Umarov viewers do the bake as before
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar Lumiya doesn have a rebake in the latest version
[11:17] Ubit.Umarov why waste servers cpu with twisted image processing when viewers can even have gpu help on that??
[11:17] Gavin.Hird I agree Ubit and I meant the viewer does the baking
[11:17] Sheera Khan: bc of copyright issues in SL ... everyone could salvage the individual textures from the cache before
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov and they can't now?? :P
[11:18] Sheera Khan: now you only get a combined textue with everything mixed in
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov not sure about that
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar like a baked texture?
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov and that's just a permissions issue
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar just??
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov just not send base avatar textures except owner
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov in fact SSA needs to filter that also
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov so.. nahh copyright is not a issue
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov not that bake is only done by the avatar viewer
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov not others
[11:20] Sheera Khan: maybe I should have said content theft...
[11:21] Ubit.Umarov the only dif is who makes the images combination.. avatar viewer or region...
[11:22] Ubit.Umarov now the protocol to handle bakes is a bit twisted..
[11:22] Ubit.Umarov guess ll messed it up and just jumped way
[11:22] Ubit.Umarov don't know lumiya issues :(
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar it assumes SSB'
[11:23] Ubit.Umarov well not much i can do if they lose opensim support..
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar i could have sworn we had it or were supposed to get it
[11:24] Ubit.Umarov no never on plans..
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar well maybe opensim should do its part in supporeting the viewers that work with it
[11:24] Sheera Khan: what was xbakes then?
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar hmm maybe was before your time then Ubit\
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: What have I missed?
[11:24] Ubit.Umarov xbakes is only bakes storage and distribution
[11:25] Sheera Khan: I thought that was supposed to be the analogon of ssb
[11:25] Ubit.Umarov bakes have own storage grid side IE xbakes
[11:25] Ubit.Umarov it achieves same end result
[11:26] Ubit.Umarov there are more differences, not related to bakes on SSA
[11:26] Ubit.Umarov like handling of visual parameters..
[11:27] Ubit.Umarov gavin did u looked to that baked meshes thing ll is working on ?
[11:27] Ubit.Umarov sounds like 99.99% viewer side thing
[11:28] Ubit.Umarov at avination we did had test system that did that
[11:29] Gavin.Hird I looked at it
[11:29] Ubit.Umarov we had avatar bakes on mesh avatars on that test platform
[11:29] Gavin.Hird that was all
[11:29] Gavin.Hird :-)9
[11:29] Gavin.Hird it requires a lot of changes backend as far as I can see
[11:29] Ubit.Umarov well viewer side guess its a "funny" thing :)
[11:30] Ubit.Umarov just another hack :)
[11:31] Ubit.Umarov from what i seen server side is at most to add a few textures with fixed uuids to dbs
[11:32] Ubit.Umarov seen they now suport a lot more textures per avatar also?
[11:32] Gavin.Hird in any case it is way down my list - sorry :-))
[11:32] Ubit.Umarov well guess down on all viewers list
[11:33] Ubit.Umarov but sounds a nice feature
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar whats on the top of your list?
[11:33] Gavin.Hird 64-bit viewer for Windows
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar flüstert: and top of yours Ubit
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar ?
[11:34] Gavin.Hird convert 7500 BOOL in the macOS viewer
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar what about an ios viewer Gavin?
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar compete with LL :)
[11:34] Gavin.Hird I wish, but you can't even think about it without having a metal renderer
[11:35] Gavin.Hird and the all the 7500 BOOLs must go
[11:35] Gavin.Hird only then can you start to use Apple libraries
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar BOOLs?
[11:35] Gavin.Hird yes
[11:36] Gavin.Hird LL has used a (now) nonstanrdard version of the boolean
[11:36] Ubit.Umarov btw kayker,, that Athena thing.. not sure but think there was a big talk about it in past..
[11:36] Ubit.Umarov def not a legit thing on opensim grids..
[11:36] Ubit.Umarov or is it?
[11:36] Gavin.Hird whick class spectacularly with the BOOL in Objective-C
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks Hello, everyone. Sorry I'm late. Started doing something for a few minutes and I lost track of the time. :P
[11:37] Kayaker Magic: Yeah Andrew the same thing happened to me!
[11:37] Leighton.Marjoram easily done Andrew
[11:37] Ubit.Umarov good your cat was looking to irc :p
[11:37] Gavin.Hird and since all the Apple libs that work with C++ is basically written in Objective-C they cannot be used till this class is resolved
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks Leighton, definitely.
[11:37] Ubit.Umarov (<Ubit> plugh's cat.. remember him about meeting)
[11:37] Gavin.Hird clash*
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks Ubit, yes it was. ;)
[11:38] Ubit.Umarov :)
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar whats not a legit thing
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar and a hush falls over the crowd
[11:41] Ubit.Umarov that Athena thing ?
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar what about it?
[11:41] Kayaker Magic: I have been doing some testing of the EOC error messages from Warp3d:
[11:41] Kayaker Magic: It only happens when Warp3D is making the map, using CSJ2K and only on certain textures.
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar its technically an orphaned mesh
[11:41] Kayaker Magic: I did binary chopping to narrow it down to one texture.
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: I can give Ubit an object that has that texture on it.
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: But it happens on lots of different textures on different OARs I have.
[11:43] Kayaker Magic: If I give Ubit a prim that has a texture that gets EOC in Warp3D, will it still do that when he copies it to another grid?
[11:43] Ubit.Umarov then why keep using CSJ2K on those regions
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: I certainly plan to never use it again. But I'm trying to help you track down those errors and log them properly.
[11:44] Ubit.Umarov in fact i may remove CSJ2K
[11:45] Ubit.Umarov ( like i said when i find why it was there in first place and still is )
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: I wonder if these "bad" textures are a bug in CSj2K or if they may cause problems in OpenJPEG also and we just don't see them.
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: Another reason for not using CSJ2K is that Warp3D on my test region is about 10 times faster when I switch to OpenJPEG!
[11:46] Ubit.Umarov we already spoke about that last week
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: Just saying. I've become a fan of OpenJPEG
[11:49] Ubit.Umarov you are sure lumiya did remove opensim appearance code only doing sl SSA arielle.Popstar ?
[11:49] Andrew.Hellershanks Has CSj2K been in OS from the start or was that added later to address some need?
[11:50] Ubit.Umarov andrew do git blame :p
[11:50] Arielle.Popstar in version 3.4.2 there is no rebake button
[11:50] Arielle.Popstar 3.4.1 did i believe
[11:50] Ubit.Umarov well even last viewers to sl have rebake
[11:51] Andrew.Hellershanks It can be hard to tell item history as some of that was lost, or made harder to access, around the time of switching from 076 to 080, IIRC.
[11:51] Ubit.Umarov and button does not mean much about low level
[11:51] Arielle.Popstar so xbakes has to be enabled on a region for ssb?
[11:51] Ubit.Umarov no
[11:51] Arielle.Popstar [XBakes]
 ;# {URL} {} {Set URL for Baked texture service} {}
 ;; Sets the URL for the baked texture ROBUST service.
 ;; Disabled when unset.
 ;; URL = ${Const|BaseURL}:${Const|PrivatePort}
[11:51] Ubit.Umarov xbakes HAS to be enable :)
[11:52] Ubit.Umarov except on standalones possible
[11:52] Arielle.Popstar ?
[11:53] Arielle.Popstar i'm confused
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: confused with what ?
[11:53] Arielle.Popstar i said it has to be enabled and you said it HAS to be enabled
[11:54] Arielle.Popstar what are we debating then?
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: no idea lol
[11:54] Arielle.Popstar that says to me that Opensim has SSB but you say it doesnt
[11:54] Arielle.Popstar which is it?
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: as i said xbakes is a storage of last bakes, without is ppl need to rebake on all tps
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: .. is a shared storage.. i meant
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: on a TP the region checks if has valid baked textures on its cache, if not asks xbakes for them
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: only if not found or outdated, it askes viewer to rebake them all again
[11:57] Arielle.Popstar ok....
[11:57] Arielle.Popstar and thats different from normal SSB how?
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: on SSB regions do the baking
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: ( or a central service, no idea )
[11:58] Arielle.Popstar so other than the initial bake, it works the same?
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: yeah more or less
[11:59] Arielle.Popstar so for the sake of one server side bake you are of the opinion it would be too much for an opensim server to handle?
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: it something a bit heavy yes
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: with minor returns, if any
[12:00] Arielle.Popstar but it does do subsequent ssbakes?
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: ??
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar if the xbakers is enabled
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: look.. if you tp to a new region, it will not have your bakes to send to all other avatars, right??
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: so it needs to get them from somewhere, with the minimal cost..
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: thats where xbakes does come in..
[12:03] Arielle.Popstar is that heavy on the server?
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: it has its load..
[12:03] Bill Blight: just for clarity this subject started talking about SSA, server side appearance, SSB, server side baking, is not the same thing
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: but a lot less than actually doing all lthe images processing
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: that is well done by viewers
[12:04] Arielle.Popstar whats the difference Bill?
[12:05] Bill Blight: SSB is just baked textures , SSA is the whole shebang
[12:07] Arielle.Popstar ok well guess its not important
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: not at the moment.. things seem to be working ok on that
[12:08] Gavin.Hird LL just sent out a message they will make a plan on how to migrate the repositories to Git
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: at least on viewers that keep proper opensim comp
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm thinking that SSA includes things like body shape that isn't part of SSB.
[12:09] Arielle.Popstar guess that list will get smaller and smaller
[12:09] Bill Blight: That is what I gathered, I assumed that people knew the difference between, textures and the rest of the appearance ...
[12:09] Arielle.Popstar any plans on taking advantage of the Opensim only viewer forks?
[12:10] Gavin.Hird what do you mean Arielle?
[12:10] Arielle.Popstar shrugs, the parts that can be seen is all textures i would have thought
[12:11] Arielle.Popstar well as an example FS now has the Opensim viewer fork. Seems to me we could now get some opensim specific changes
[12:11] Arielle.Popstar thats we couldn't before
[12:11] Gavin.Hird which would be?
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: yeah but fs as no opensim devs
[12:12] Bill Blight: last change to that OS firestorm repo was 4 months ago, so they are not really jumping in to make changes
[12:12] Gavin.Hird I have asked before, what opensim specific changes do you want?
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: for now in pratical terms they just stopped opensim suport in time
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: but lets see..
[12:12] Arielle.Popstar has Opensim asked themn to make any changes?
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: only a few months ago they did look to issues that had the word "opensim" filled back in 2015
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: and where also SL issues
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: and the dev that did that was clear telling that will only due minimal fixes for opensim, not major changes
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I would think FS is unlikely to get OS specific features while there is still the version of FS for LL. The two versions would have to track each other to a certain extent.
[12:14] Bill Blight: The biggest advantage, is the fact that there is a repo that is not going to get SL changes, so it does not break using it in openism ..
[12:14] Gavin.Hird yes
[12:15] Arielle.Popstar but neither will we get new features that s/l adopts
[12:15] Bill Blight:
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: well if it gets any changes at all, is something to be seen
[12:15] Bill Blight: yep
[12:15] Arielle.Popstar so in effect Opensim becomes stagnated?
[12:15] Gavin.Hird no
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: we are talking about ONE viewer
[12:16] Gavin.Hird there are probably tons of improvements to existing functionality that will spill over to the opensim version
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: this region is running code to suport a change made by Singu
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: ie the new estate access panel
[12:17] Gavin.Hird but it does not work on regions that don't have it
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: ie one of the last ll change, that we got via singularity suport
[12:17] Gavin.Hird so it is useless in all old versions of opensim which most grids have
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: singu does work gavin.Hird
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: we have seen it here LOL
[12:17] Bill Blight: I can name 3 viewers off the top of my head that are directly supporting opensim that are getting development, Dayturn, Singularity and one called Polarity ..
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: we where testing it and Bill had forgotten to activate the new cap :)
[12:18] Bill Blight: cap schmap
[12:18] Bill Blight: :P
[12:18] Gavin.Hird I tried singu in a region without the estate changes, and the estate panel was a complete mess
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: just with lludp we don't see who did a bad and when
[12:19] Arielle.Popstar so the new viewer is not compatible with old regions/
[12:19] Arielle.Popstar ?
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: ie while LL totally removed the lludp, Liru added glue to keep it working
[12:20] Gavin.Hird the build I tested failed, but it is very much work in progress that viewer at the moment
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Sing development is active again? It seemed to have mostly stopped for a long time.
[12:20] Gavin.Hird so I would not judge it too hard
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: ewll it is a alpha version of singu :)
[12:20] Gavin.Hird right
[12:21] Bill Blight: Liru is pretty active, and NO not getting updated on the singu website
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: i just used the bin 7766 from their repo
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I was often using the alpha of Sing.
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I still have 1.8.7 (6966) on my machine.
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: so basicly Liru did add the new panel, keeping comp with older regions
[12:22] Arielle.Popstar here andrew
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: she did told me about it, shown me the code where to see the protocol, so i did add the new cap
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, ty. Seems odd that those aren't available from the Singularity website.
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: thats another prob with fs code split
[12:24] Gavin.Hird latest macOS build is from 07/23/2019
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: we do not suport sl features.. we suport some VIEWERs features
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: so if some features never reach viewer usable in opensim.. we can't try to support it
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Let's wrap up this meeting for today. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

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