Chat log from the meeting on 2019-06-25

From OpenSimulator

Jump to: navigation, search

[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks I can start us off today with a question.
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: Before Ubit arrives and gets mad at me for mentioning it, does anyone know when Nanii forked off? Was it before or after YEngine?
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks Have any of you been using the DTL/NSL money module with OS 0.9? I was talking to a grid owner who has that combo and they are having a problem where NPCs and HG visitors lock up the money system until a local person enters the region.
[11:07] Bill.Blight Originally it was before Yengine but after XMREngine, I think ... (before it really worked and was renamed)
[11:08] Sheera Khan: Metro doesn't have a money module active...
[11:09] Bill.Blight DTL/NSL had to be updated for current dev branch, I made it work for testing but I have since forgotten what I had to fix .. but yes there were issues if just using it stock
[11:09] Sheera Khan: except for some Gloebits and private owned regions I don't have any experience with ...
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: Yes, on Discovery Grid they are using DTL and it has a problem that they fixed. There was talk of publishing the fix but there are so many things in the to do list....
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks The combination used to work in 0.8 and I know there have been changes to the money system API and also changes related to NPCs. I suspect the module needs some sort of modification. I haven't looked in to what exactly.
[11:09] Gavin.Hird unless the module has been changed to work properly with 0.9.x I guess there would be issues
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks ok. From what Kayaker is saying other grids using that combination of OS and module have had a similar. or same problem.
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: The bug DiscoveryGrid had was this: DTL doesn't disable itself when there is another money module like Gloebits selected. Do they could not have some regions on DTS and some on Gloebit.
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks The DTL/NSL module is old and hasn't been updated for some time.
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks Ok. That is a different problem entirely.
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks It is easy to add a setting to enable or disable a module.
[11:13] Sheera Khan: that mostly looks like a configuration error by the simulator owner
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks Possibly. I have the source for that module but haven't tried setting it up on my machine. It isn't one of the simpler things to set up.
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: The problem was even if you changed the configuration settings, if the DTS module was there, it got loaded and did things when it was disabled in configuration.
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: hmm DTS needs special version for 0.91
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: Apparenly several different grids have independantly fixed bugs in DTS
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: ie updated version :)
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks It needs some updates. I was just asking if anyone here has used it with 0.9 as I have a grid owner telling me they have run in to a problem. It is something they will need to get fixed as the module isn't part of core OS but I was hoping someone here had run across the problem.
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks Kayaker, I wouldn't be surprised. The people who write it don't seem to have touched it in ages and I don't know if they have a way to submit bug fixes.
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: I recall that it just needed re-compiling to work with 0.9.1
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: it needs more than recompile for 0.9.1 i think
[11:18] Bill.Blight I needed changes to the prebuild and some of the includes, and a recompile
[11:18] Bill.Blight if I remember correctly
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: and some uses of sll
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: ssl
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks I agree with Ubit. The person who reported the problem should have already tried that. I'll double check to make sure, just in case they haven't.
[11:18] Bill.Blight yes
[11:18] Bill.Blight that too
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: the cert validation
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: it cant over ride the global rules
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: now that is possible with .net4.6, well easier at least
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks Ubit, the problem reported is that the money module stops working when an NPC is rezzed or when an HG visitor enters the region. The money module works again when a regular local avatar enters the region.
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: the validation can bow be by endpoint
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks I suspect it gets hung up trying to access some data for an NPC or HG avatar that it can't get and gets stuck.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: hmm mb npcs don't have something it wants.. don't see what
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks I think I'm repeating myself in a sentence again. :)
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: and HG, well its HG :)
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks I'm not sure either. It should be simple enough to modify the module to ignore balance requests for NPCs. Not sure how easy it is to detect an HG visitor.
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: we should had a simple set of flags for that
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks That would be helpful.
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks You can add that to your ToDo list, Ubit.  ;)
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: but.. HG made as kinda external option makes that hard
[11:22] Cuga Rajal: Some HG visitors use My Suitcase, some not, is that a factor?
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks Cuga, I don't know. I wouldn't expect it to affect the money system but as Ubit said. It is HG. :)
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: not related to money, but the try to make HG as normal users was kinda excessive.. somethings will never work
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks nods
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: HG travel should be a special mode
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: wel suitcase is part of that, but more things
[11:25] Cuga Rajal: Sounds complicated
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: HG ppl should travel light, as RL air travel :)
[11:26] Gavin.Hird only with tourist visa and not full citizenship
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks :)
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: I've heard reports of people moving all their inventory into the Suitcase so they don't have to deal with inventory when traveling.
[11:27] Gavin.Hird usually you have to pay for excess luggage
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks Kayaker, yikes.
[11:29] Bill.Blight It's even more of a pain when you get several from a grid that does not use the suitcase landing in rapid succession ..
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: no idea why they can have edit rights on target region for example
[11:29] Cuga Rajal: Like OSG <clears throat>
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks Not using a suitcase is partly a brower issue?
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: suitcase is also a problem thing.. not light at all
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: since it is a hack, it needs to fully replace viewers idea of the current inventory
[11:31] Kayaker Magic: Kitely implemented a kludge where they only load the first 1000 items in the suitcase when you arrive.
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: and scan for needed assets.. blabla
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks Sounds like a good idea if there are people putting their entire inventory in to the Suitcase folder.
[11:31] Cuga Rajal: Its more of a security feature than a lightening of load..
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: not a light thing currently
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: but its a security thing mainy
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: to only expose those assets
[11:32] Gavin.Hird so if some of your body parts and outfit are from the remaining, you end up looking like a plucked chicken?
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: to other grids
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: bc normal inventory is not transfered
[11:32] Cuga Rajal: I thought worn items always travel...
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: with normal inventory the host region asks for assets etc to source grid
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: and that is the problem
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: for normal inv, grids need to expose assets servers to world
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: when it should be only a subset
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: exportable things etc
[11:34] Cuga Rajal: Could add a suitcase enforcer option - reject HG avis without suitcase?
[11:34] Bill.Blight that will make the "everything should be free" people cry ..
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: well first, understand how it (tries) to work is a idea :p
[11:35] Kayaker Magic: But OSGrid does not have suitcase!
[11:35] Kayaker Magic: So OSGrid travelers would all be rejected.
[11:35] Cuga Rajal: Thats one of the reasoins I rarely log with my OSG avi
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: osg had issues with suitcase
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: don't know the details
[11:36] Cuga Rajal: I was wondering about that, why that didnt support
[11:36] Gavin.Hird they need to do a DB conversion
[11:36] Kayaker Magic: I'm told Dan doesn't like suitcases, doesn't think they add security.
[11:36] Cuga Rajal: I actually can access my non-suitcase stuff when HG teleported
[11:37] Cuga Rajal: So maybe fixes still needed therer for suitcase?
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: is there anything on opensim not needing fixes? :)
[11:37] Cuga Rajal: :)
[11:37] Bill.Blight right on the nose there Ubit
[11:38] Gavin.Hird so much for being the test grid
[11:38] Cuga Rajal: Just question of relative importance I guess
[11:38] Bill.Blight that is my main complaint against Osgrid these days, less of a test grid and more wanting to win the popularity contest ...
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: osg is also a full grid, that limits testing
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: for example gird side testing is a problem
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: not good having a test destroy the dbs :)
[11:40] Cuga Rajal: You cant roll back in production
[11:41] Bill.Blight osgrid just allowed itself to get too far away from core code , making it harder to compare and test, as far as grid side is concerned
[11:41] Gavin.Hird of course you can, but it means downtime
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: not easy with TB dbs that take ages to backup and restore
[11:41] Cuga Rajal: downtime and loss of work ryv
[11:41] Bill.Blight Yeah crazy big db's are no fun to restore
[11:41] Cuga Rajal: They really need a test version with separate db instance
[11:41] Gavin.Hird and the core code only
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: we should had a test grid only
[11:42] Bill.Blight That's what Ubit uses me for ... :P
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: but then, not one whould be there :)
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: and some issues need real load
[11:42] Cuga Rajal: You could never simlate the load, but a few beta testers is better than... 1
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: but not all
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: regions testing is a bit easier
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: lbsa is usually close to last bugs
[11:43] Kayaker Magic: Actually, OSGrid without a suitcase has shown some design problems with HG and suitcases, that was a good test.
[11:43] Kayaker Magic: Now if we could find a good fix....
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: The OSCC regions have been used to do load testing in the past. Unfortunately they haven't been updated in a while.
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: those tests where only for oscc usage
[11:44] Bill Blight: It is not like people have not offered to help update OSCC .....
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: ie to test if regions whould hold the meetings
[11:44] Gavin.Hird with justincc updating the code realtime
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Mostly true. They certainly helped to test the ability to handle large number of avatars in a region.
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: they needed many avatars per region :)
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: They certainly do
[11:46] Cuga Rajal: Thats really important and hard to test otherwise
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: and guess that a point 0.8 wasn't able to suport that many
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: ( or 0.7 ?? )
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Is nebadon the main person looking after the OSCC regions?
[11:46] Bill Blight: Marcus
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: so justin did made a effort to improve that
[11:46] Bill Blight: Marcus pretty much was the go to guy last year
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: well that is a running effort.. still far from great
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, ok thanks. Probably time to talk to Marcus about updating the grid before it gets too close to the next OSCC and no time to do any update and testing.
[11:47] Cuga Rajal: MySQL DB tuning is a factor too Im sure, sure would be nice to have some info on OS website
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: funny ppl telling 0.91 does not suport what 20 avatars?
[11:48] Cuga Rajal: DB info on website is so old...
[11:48] Bill Blight: I"ve offered 3 years in a row, not going to offer to help again ... LOL :P
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, you are welcome to add information. :)
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: and we do see a bit more at event plaza and similar regions :)
[11:48] Cuga Rajal: I', up for it
[11:48] Cuga Rajal: But I only have a small region with no visitors LOL
[11:49] Cuga Rajal: So hard to test tuning
[11:49] Gavin.Hird host a crash party
[11:49] Cuga Rajal: Best written by someon on a grid that gets pounded
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, if you are running a region attached to osgrid you wouldn't have access to the MySQL database to do any tuning.
[11:49] Cuga Rajal: My region is standaline HG not OSG
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, ah, ok
[11:50] Cuga Rajal: Im a server engineer in RL
[11:50] Bill Blight: we had 51 at our fest test party, and it did not crash
[11:50] Bill Blight: and everybody was dancing away
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: .51 running on a Z80 ? :p
[11:50] Cuga Rajal: Thats the time to run DB testss, during partys :)
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Just noticed the time. I may have to go near the top of the hour. Does any one have a question, comment, or topic of discussion for today that we haven't covered?
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Z-80? :)
[11:51] Bill Blight: haha
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: well if there was a 0.51 it was already some kinda of pentium :)
[11:51] Bill Blight: Ti-99 4a
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I have a TMS 9900 CPU in my parts drawer. That can lead to a discussion for another time.
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: there are a few opened issues on mantis, i hope to look to them soon
[11:52] Cuga Rajal: I'll have a party this summer and do some DB tests :) Then I can help update the DB page
[11:52] Gavin.Hird PDP-8
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: a bit out, as you may had noticed
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: that yengine control of memory usage is still nasty
[11:52] Bill Blight: I have a 8088 expansion daughter board for an old NEC I think in my closet ..
[11:53] Kayaker Magic: I'd like to ask Bill and Ubit about the advisability of using YEngine in a production environment.
[11:53] Bill Blight: my whole grid runs YEngine
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I think you just did. :)
[11:53] Kayaker Magic: I've tested a few large scripts on YEngine with few problems.
[11:53] Bill Blight: so did the fest grid
[11:53] Bill Blight: there are a few gotchas
[11:53] Bill Blight: but simple work arounds
[11:54] Bill Blight: Till Ubit fixes it
[11:54] Bill Blight: LOL
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: the main issue i see now is that memory usage accounting
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Any hope of saving the script state crossing from X to Yengine regions?
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: may stop some scripts for no valid reason
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: X to Y is working +-
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: not the reverse
[11:55] Bill Blight: That is the only issue I run into , scripts not cleaning varibles/memory, but an extra line to clear the varible is a simple workaround until it gets fixed
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: Adoption of YEngine would be easier if you could do it one region at a time. Can't do that if scripts reset on a crossing.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: well y - > is not a easy thing
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, does, or will, YEngine report actual memory used when using the LSL function to request memory use?
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: thats still bad andrew
[11:56] Cuga Rajal: brb
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, ok.
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: a open mantis on that
[11:56] Bill Blight: It may not be accurate but it gets you in the ballpark
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: it "leaks" memory
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Going from X to Y is moving to the future. We all know you can't go back in time. ;)
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: sometimes i just think removing it :p
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: doing that account does cost a lot
[11:57] Bill Blight: yeah that mantis is the engine not clearing variables when they are replaced
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Makes a change from having memory always reported as 16384 regardless of actual use
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: its not variables or true memory usage, its just the account of it
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: well and strings passed as arguments
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: but that mem account is only usefull on a SL mainland model
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: or regions with rented parcels
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: not that usefull on own sims
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: not sure it pays the cost of having it..
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: btw ignore all Yengine extra options.. those are still not defined
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: swith, case, break, are sure to stay
[12:01] Kayaker Magic: I'll set up an X and YEnging region next to each other and try sailing back and forth between them.
[12:01] Kayaker Magic: In OSGrid.
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: from y -> X boat will stop
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, make sure you are wearing your life vest for when the boat stops suddenly and you get tossed in to the water. ;)
[12:03] Kayaker Magic: LOL
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: and not easy to fix that
[12:03] Kayaker Magic: This is a new mesh PFD I am wearing now!
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: Y state files are more compact and do not have all info needed to recover for X
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: for example variables names
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, you just answered a question I was about to ask.
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: Y knows the order they are stored on file, no need for names
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: X is a xml like thing
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: well its xml :)
[12:05] Cuga.Rajal If you HG TP from Y to X region would scripts stop on worn items?
[12:05] Cuga.Rajal Or is it just physics iterms?
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: you lose state
[12:06] Cuga.Rajal Ah ok, so not just region crossing issue
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: for example global vars go back to compile values, etc
[12:07] Bill Blight: if you go from Y to X you may end up with the script returning to it's old state that it had on that region previously
[12:07] Cuga.Rajal effectively llReset
[12:07] Cuga.Rajal So only an issue if theres as state to pass that diff from original
[12:08] Cuga.Rajal If Y->X and it's a different X region that you started at, wouldnt restore?
[12:09] Bill Blight: I started storing the script settings in a notecard or in the description field, so even on lost state or reset they go back to how they were ...
[12:09] Kayaker Magic: Question: Are region crossings for attachment scripts more reliable in YEngine? XEngine has a race condition that messes up HUD scripts, for example.
[12:09] Cuga.Rajal You would have to write state changes to the NC
[12:10] Bill Blight: have had no isses with crossing Y TO Y
[12:10] Bill Blight: there is another Y region next door if you want to test
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: and Y does the transfer inside a event processing ( events have checkpoints for that)
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: while X just kills current event processing
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: ie on Y to Y execution is resumed more closely to the breakpoint
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: well not a major thing if you keep each event small :)
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: as you must on X, and should on Y
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Event handlers should be small. Didn't stop one person from having to increase time allowed in an event handler because they ran in to a timeout issue otherwise. They were (are still) doing waaay too much in the handler.
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Its quarter past. Probably time to wrap this up.
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: also only an event runs at a time per script

Personal tools
About This Wiki