Chat log from the meeting on 2019-02-26

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[10:47] Ubit Umarov: glad to see Bill managed to upgrade the region, or you all be dead
[10:47] Bill.Blight yeah because Ubrokeit
[10:48] Ubit Umarov: i did not compile this region, you did
[10:48] Bill.Blight Oh so that's how it is ... Ok I'm keeping an eye on you
[10:48] Ubit Umarov: :)
[10:49] Ubit Umarov: damm only a few hours and it did reached mantis
[10:49] Bill.Blight yeap
[10:50] Ubit Umarov: well should be that way all the time..
[10:50] Vincent.Sylvester Certainly beats the likes of those just using it to complain about things
[10:59] Vincent.Sylvester Though something is definitely up with 1.2.2 and textures are behaving a bit odd, they don't fully "resolve" and stay blurry
[10:59] Vincent.Sylvester Have not done a full config reset yet though
[10:59] Gavin.Hird did you just reset the cache?
[11:00] Vincent.Sylvester Come to think of it have not done that yet either, though the textures do load, when I zoom in on them closely
[11:01] Vincent.Sylvester I'll check after nuking the user settings directory and cache maybe that helps
[11:02] Gavin.Hird There are quite a few changes in 1.2.2 that also could affect texture loading from an old cache version so I would go for that as the start
[11:02] dj phil: Waves :)
[11:03] Vincent.Sylvester I can overlook such small things given how much smoother it runs compared to half the framerate over on FS
[11:05] Gavin.Hird I read a blog post that the latest FS has a lot of issues on uploading mesh to opensim
[11:05] Gavin.Hird has anyone experienced that?
[11:05] JayR.Cela say there Gavin / I was looking for the download page for your Version of Kokua that works with Open Sim / all I could find was the Second Life specific one
[11:05] Bill.Blight not if you change the debug setting they put in just for us
[11:05] Gavin.Hird for Linux or Windows?
[11:06] JayR.Cela Linux and Windows
[11:06] Bill.Blight both
[11:06] Vincent.Sylvester Most folks just hop on Singu to upload from what I hear
[11:06] Gavin.Hird The Linux version is sort of frozen in time
[11:06] JayR.Cela ok then the Windows one
[11:06] Gavin.Hird Windows versions can be downloaded from here
[11:06] JayR.Cela thanks
[11:07] Bill.Blight "FSIgnoreClientsideMeshValidation" , Treat the errors from Clientside mesh validation as warnings and do not block upload. This setting allows you to fall back on server side checks and per Grid quality control levels.
[11:07] Leighton.Marjoram I resolved most of the issues I was having uploading complex mesh by including a physics shape from file.
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: hmm mb i should put more checks like that on region side uploads :p
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: nahh have a simple one and some ppl told 0.9 was broken and placed on blogs how to remove the check grr
[11:09] Vincent.Sylvester heh guilty :D
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: no comments :p
[11:10] Bill.Blight People would rather have it easy, and have crap overloaded mesh than do it right the first time
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: in that case broken mesh even
[11:12] Gavin.Hird I finally spent a few hours replacing about 280 meshes on the grid that you could walk through like butter on ubOde
[11:12] Vincent.Sylvester I recently looked into some of the courses given on professional level toward gamedesign and frankly the theme goes toward rapid-development instead of actually giving care to optimize models and tricks to reduce tris
[11:13] Vincent.Sylvester A certain lack of care and more talk about how to do things quickly, but dirty, because deadlines
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: yeah, on games no one cares
[11:13] Vincent.Sylvester They care... once the games stop running at 60fps
[11:13] Bill.Blight Yes but they have AAA rendering engines, we still have old OpenGL
[11:14] Leighton.Marjoram that may well be how they prototype maybe for clients but I assume the final product is optimised for the game engine.
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: know a game that took 1 year to update some 10 maps ( more or less 10 regions) to changes on the engine
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: 1km regions..
[11:15] Gavin.Hird Also they don't usually put all their good tricks out in the open. Competitive element.
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: editor tools are improving on automatic optimization... but still not full
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: original 3d creator must know what he his doing
[11:16] Vincent.Sylvester Frankly the notion to just stuff everything into Unity or UE with the end result being you hit the wall head on, because without direct source access only so much you can do to squeeze performance out of them
[11:16] Bill.Blight but first and foremost if we want better mesh we need a better render engine
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: im playing with a beta version of a game..
[11:17] Vincent.Sylvester and hammers, lots of hammers to beat users with
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: parts of the map... SLOWWWW
[11:17] JayR.Cela Whats up with Vulcan as oppesed to Open GL ?
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: ( a unity based game actually, but its optimization.. the previus release version was fine everywhere on map )
[11:18] Vincent.Sylvester Each new api, like vulcan, will have the issue of min hardware level however
[11:18] Bill.Blight yep
[11:18] Bill.Blight Vulkan is the modern direct replacement for OpenGL, but not as direct as they make it seem
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: guess directx12 is taking the lead now
[11:19] Gavin.Hird Apple deprecated OpenGL, so it is Metal2 there
[11:19] Bill.Blight dx11 at min
[11:20] Vincent.Sylvester You have to remember how many still run on systems not supporting that stuff
[11:20] Vincent.Sylvester I know folks still running XP for crying out loud
[11:20] Bill.Blight then stop complaining about mesh
[11:21] Gavin.Hird Do they also run Imprudence on XP?
[11:21] Bill.Blight you can't have AAA quality, on a deprecated engine, and then complain you don't have AAA quality
[11:21] Vincent.Sylvester I never did complain...
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: ok, so what opensim news do you have today ?
[11:22] Bill.Blight refers to his blog post "fixing" the mesh upload
[11:22] Gavin.Hird Metro
[11:23] Gavin.Hird which version will they migrate to?
[11:23] Gavin.Hird I mean latest beta or something stable-ish?
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks I'm awake. Phone call ran long. :P
[11:23] Bill.Blight master is more stable than the RC
[11:24] Sheera Khan is back from reading the backlog
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: think seem mention to 0.9.1 guess a hybrid
[11:24] Sheera Khan: Metro will run some sort of 0.9.1.X where I don't know the X eXactly ^^
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: well x == 0 for now :p
[11:25] Gavin.Hird so master++?
[11:25] Vincent.Sylvester Bigger question would be whether to stick with the defaults or switch to ubode Yengine
[11:26] Sheera Khan: it is a relativly recent one but I don't know where Zak started the cherry picking :-(
[11:26] Gavin.Hird right
[11:26] Sheera Khan: well, my guess is Bullet and Xengine ^^ - just bc ...
[11:27] Bill.Blight we had 48 peeps at our load test on Saturday, and other than viewerside lag, everyone could move fine, and had no complaints , and it is based on current master
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: nahh old master
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: several days old!
[11:28] Gavin.Hird hehe
[11:28] Sheera Khan: well, there was a bit of traffic in the git lately ^^
[11:29] Bill.Blight LOL
[11:29] Bill.Blight it is current now
[11:29] Sheera Khan: so some hours could make a difference ^^
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: nahh ive a commit waiting
[11:29] Bill.Blight hope Ubrokeit, was not messing around in the code again, you know Ubit's evil twin
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks :)
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: will be called something like do terseUpdates the ugly way :p
[11:30] Gavin.Hird the one singing "Oops I did it again..." ;-)
[11:31] Vincent.Sylvester It is good to see things being fixed and worked on though, can't deny that, even if the changes sometimes cause problems elsewhere
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: well only made the agents ones.. need do prims
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: but well class of changes i call "useless changes"
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: no visible effects grrr
[11:33] Vincent.Sylvester From going through mantis it is clear that there are still some things left untouched for quite some time. Getting those up to date or up to newer better standards can only help long term. Though I have to say I do feel dirty for bringing the old stuff from 2011 and so on back to the front
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: well that combat module does need update
[11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks Put on your hazmat gear first, Vincent. ;)
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: ( why do we have it?? )
[11:34] Vincent.Sylvester I don't really know what to do with the freeswitch tickets though, I can't test them so would be nice if someone could either confirm or resolve those
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks A combat module would be useful to people making regions for roleplay. Probably was created for that purpose.
[11:35] Bill.Blight as far as freeswitch goes only a fairly old version of it will work with Opensim
[11:35] Gavin.Hird why is that Bill?
[11:36] Bill.Blight freeswitch changed a lot of things the biggest being only accepting secure connections
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks Getting Freeswitch working was a bit of a pain at the best of times.
[11:36] Bill.Blight yep
[11:37] Bill.Blight and the old version will not even compile correctly on newer Linux without standing on your head chanting to the gods
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks grins
[11:37] Vincent.Sylvester That is what I keep running into
[11:37] Leighton.Marjoram haha know that chant well Bill
[11:38] Bill Blight: I got it running on ubuntu 18 but it blows up after a while
[11:38] Bill Blight: doesn't like the newer system libs
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: It has been several years since I last tried to use FS.
[11:39] Leighton.Marjoram I found mumble easier as FreeSwitch seems you need to be a SIPS phone engineer to follow the instructions
[11:39] Bill Blight: well yeah
[11:40] Bill Blight: Freeswitch is a SIP/voIP phone system
[11:40] Leighton.Marjoram mumbles audience seems more aimed at gamers and communities rather than engineers (read FreeSwitch)
[11:40] Bill Blight: I worked for a CLEC/small telco, and we sold voip services so not a stranger to it
[11:42] Vincent.Sylvester Though that mumble integration has been in the works for how long now?
[11:42] Bill Blight: Nobody seems to want to pick it up unless they get paid
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: If/when that OS specific viewer is released let's hope it will include support for Whisper/Mumble.
[11:43] Vincent.Sylvester A sad, but understandable sentiment given how notoriously annoying dealing with comms is
[11:43] Gavin.Hird you can always hope :-)
[11:44] Bill Blight: well supposidly there is a working version out there, but they will not come off of it without money
[11:46] Vincent.Sylvester It does surprise me somewhat that vivox is still able to keep to their pricing models given the high competition in the market of realtime comms. Just recently found even the big shots of Teamspeak getting a run for their money by a homebrew project of their protocol.
[11:47] Bill Blight: yeah and Teamspeak sued them
[11:47] Vincent.Sylvester There is a growing distaste among a certain group of people in regards to SaaS models, though the more average user seems generally thrilled about them moreso
[11:49] Gavin.Hird It is not for nothing IBM sees private clouds as their biggest growth area
[11:51] Vincent.Sylvester Clouds are like everywhere now
[11:51] Vincent.Sylvester Even in places they make no sense
[11:51] Gavin.Hird agreed
[11:52] Bill Blight: Cloud is a fancy way of saying someone else's computer , and brilliant marketing scam
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:53] Gavin.Hird but both private and corporate users are getting increasingly tired of kleptomanic US agencies and corporations siphoning off their data
[11:54] Vincent.Sylvester Still rather that than docker, the notion of just stuffing things into docker vs. proper implementation usually just results in a mess that runs poorly and crashes all the time.
[11:55] Bill Blight: well , the users made clouds popular so no one to blame but themselves, you freely give your data to a cloud and while they should be honest about it, most people don't trust their next door neighbor , yet they trust a faceless corporation with their data ..
[11:56] Gavin.Hird well, there was just a relatively big disclosure of a number of health related apps, that just sent off all the date to Facebook without telling anyone
[11:56] Gavin.Hird such behavior is completely unacceptable
[11:56] Vincent.Sylvester Convenience is a hell of a drug for many
[11:56] Leighton.Marjoram Who couldnt see that coming from a mile away
[11:57] Leighton.Marjoram GDPR seems to make a bit more sense now
[11:57] Gavin.Hird BTW I have removed anything Facebook from the viewer
[11:58] Bill Blight: everyone should watch Idiocracy , that movie was meant as a comedy not a roadmap
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Another good reason for me to never get a Facebook account.
[11:58] Vincent.Sylvester Though all that has one positive effect, handling of big data like that requires new structures and system OpenSim may benefit from given it too likes to create lots and lots of data
[11:58] Bernd.Steinhardt Good decision * smiles
[11:58] Leighton.Marjoram The sad thing Andrew is you will still show up in their data sets
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps. I'm all over the net.
[11:59] Gavin.Hird they build shadow profiles of everyone
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Is there any other OpenSim related topic someone wanted to discuss which hasn't come up yet?
[11:59] Leighton.Marjoram nods @ Gavin its not as detailed as the sets they have on their users but still its creepy as hell though

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