Chat log from the meeting on 2018-12-11

[11:12] Sheera Khan: I have a little question about the differences between 0.9.0.x and 0.9.1.x....
[11:12] Sheera Khan: Is there something like a changelog besides the commit history?
[11:12] Sheera Khan: Or will Andrew have to prepare a loooooooong list after realeasing it again?
[11:17] Sheera Khan blushes as she realizes she killed the chat
[11:17] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org: Well, why don't you tell us about OpenSim Fest Leighton. What version of OpenSim will it be running?
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: think plugh is still processing the avn merge changes :p
[11:17] Sheera Khan: yes, that's my impression too ^^
[11:18] Sheera Khan: that's why I asked my question ...
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: major dif 0.91 targets .net 4.6
[11:18] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: oops thanks Bill for fetching my from Discord
[11:19] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: Thank you Kayaker Opensim Fest is running its own version of Opensim Core maybe Bill could answer that as hes the server man
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: so needs mono 5.x to run/build
[11:19] Unknown UserUMMAU42 knew it would come to him, lol
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: and vs2017 to build on win
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: (vs2015 may work )
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Finally managed to get in to this grid.
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I wasn't sure if I we would be able to have a meeting today as they were down most of the morning due to a DNS issue.
[11:21] Unknown UserUMMAU42: We are running a custom version that is based on dev master, YEngine and ubODE, we have some code in that appears to speed things up, and will eventually release that code to core/opensource, but it is the type of thing that will not be easy for end users to setup. So not letting the cat out of the bag yet
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: How many of you attended the OSCC this past weekend? I hope you found it interesting and informative.
[11:23] Unknown UserUMMAU42: the grid is up now, should be able to get to it via opensimfest.com on the map search but some DNS appears to be fighting us in some places
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I could not attend any of the Sunday events due to a family birthday but I was there on Saturday.
[11:23] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: I was there and always find it full of creativity and I feel inspired
[11:23] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org: I was at OSCC. I saw Ubit there on Sunday, why didn't you attend the pannel on Saturday?
[11:23] Unknown UserUMMAU42: "Unable to verify identity" errors
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I was only there when nobody else were there. It does not quite fit my daytime schedule
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: rl things kayaker
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or shall I say weekend schedule
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I wanted to attend the Mocap related panel on Sunday but couldn't.
[11:24] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: been a few years running but this year was my first presentation.
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: For those who missed any of the panels they have been recorded and will be available later this month. Possibly around Christmas time.
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I hope it went well for you, Leighton.
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Melanie made a big announcement in her talk with Mal Burns on Saturday morning.
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: She has released source code that can form the basis of a new viewer for OpenSim. It uses the Unreal engine for rendering.
[11:27] Unknown UserUMMAU42: Yeah I examined those pics closely
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: For anyone who wants to have a look at it you can find the code at https://github.com/opensim/opensim-viewer
[11:27] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: Not too bad thank you Andrew
[11:27] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org: No network stack, no protocol yet.
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think can form is the word for it
[11:27] Unknown UserUMMAU42: it appeard that with NO avatars and no dynamic content the frame said it was getting 6fps
[11:27] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org: No avatars yet.
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, no, it isn't complete.
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The hope is that some people will step up and add on the parts that it still needs.
[11:28] Unknown UserUMMAU42: but there is hope
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not complete?
[11:28] Unknown UserUMMAU42: more like barely started
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to do a manual conversion of opensim content to a static scene
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It can currently render a scene from an XML file. To render a region you first have to convert the region data to an XML file.
[11:29] Unknown UserUMMAU42: In it's current state it is more like Sansar than OpenSim
[11:29] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org: She has this idea that the server will send a compressed XML package of the entire scene when starting up.
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good luck with that
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: the xml is base work point
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: no comms to regions on it still
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and for every frame update a new compressed XML?
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: main work was on rendering opensim content
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the entire point of opensim and SL is dynamic content
[11:30] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org: No, some protocol to be determined to send deltas.
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you want static, go to sansar
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: the xml is just a work point to start
[11:30] Unknown UserUMMAU42: 3 years ago, I worked with the unreal engine to do some game mods there is no real functions in it for "streamed content" ie "Dynamic Content" , that may have changed though
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there isn't Bill
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: AFAIK, think of it more as a new rendering engine. It needs a lot of other bits and pieces added on top to turn it into a full viewer.
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: games notion of dynamic content is a 30GB download bf playing it :p
[11:31] Unknown UserUMMAU42: yes
[11:31] Unknown UserUMMAU42: exactly Ubit
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly ubit
[11:31] Unknown UserUMMAU42: which is what always bothers me when people compare OpenSim to AAA titles, that you have to load gigs of data in advance.
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it needs something to render
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: well that code can do dynamic content
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: the xml is read after the "game" start
[11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Game engines typically need content that has been optimized in advance.
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: so like true regions dynamic content
[11:32] Unknown UserUMMAU42: but would have to be read again and re-download the whole scene even if one prim changed
[11:32] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: I have a few regions that would probably be ok for a more game mechanic approach. But most Opensim regions are not really designed for that so apart from the graphics upgrade with the social comms style features I dont see much value at the moment.
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: xml is just bc as i said, still not code for comms with region
[11:33] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: Much of my educational stuff with a little thinking could take advantage of unreal.
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: ( option to preload something at arrival is a option to consider )
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: ie a package for the region
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Why not just port it to Unreal?
[11:35] Unknown UserUMMAU42: people would cry if they could not still also use their current viewers
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: like region UI , objects terrain..
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: game approach?
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: The use of a new rendering engine means the worlds will get a big facelift. No more 15 year old look to everything.
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: we do not want that
[11:36] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: The only question that keeps coming up is "what value do I get from importing Opensim regions, rather than using the native tools for Unreal/Unity and importing content from Blender? As long as the engine have avatars and multiplayer features I am good."
[11:37] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: it will be interesting to see what happens though.
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Leighton, yes it will.
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: native unreal tools are other thing, not opensim thing
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: or unity
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I suspect nothign will happen
[11:38] Unknown UserUMMAU42: the Unreal tools are made for experienced 3d builders not virtual world creators
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: and do not work at run time
[11:38] Unknown UserUMMAU42: nope
[11:39] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: I agree Bill and I can see the value of importing in that situation
[11:39] Unknown UserUMMAU42: As I said like sansar, you switch to build mode, make your stuff, then push it to the scene
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: To find someone who both is well versed in using the Unreal engine and capablae of writing a viewer for Opensim will be a stretch
[11:39] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org: Diva wants to help with this viewer.
[11:39] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org: Mr Blue is interested in working on it.
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I read her message more like "here is some stuff, now run with it"
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: If done right, you can isolate the rendering part with some sort of API so no everyone who wants to code for it needs to know the Unreal engine.
[11:40] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org: That was Melanie's message, Diva said "bring it on!"
[11:41] Unknown UserUMMAU42: Diva is smart, but that does not give her instant knowledge in using the Unreal Engine
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that's gotta be the most messed API there is in case
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: She also thinks a small team of people could finish it in two or three months.
[11:41] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org: Diva will write the protocol, someone else will write other parts.
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even LL don't understand how the current renderer works any more
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: why are you trying to guess what ppl wil do?
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: stop that :p
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: the official position is what mel told at oscc
[11:44] Unknown UserUMMAU42: Let's be honest, Diva has not touched opensim in 3 years, today was the first Commit from Mel in over a year, not discounting their ability , just their motivation to do anything ..
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: no news about what we core will do with it for now
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: ok ?
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: This announcement and code base is the sort of thing that can motivate someone whether they are a core dev or not.
[11:45] Unknown UserUMMAU42: just how long will that motivation last, I'm the pessimist , not going to start counting my chickens before they are hatched ..
[11:46] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org: Like Diva: She has been burned out on OpenSim for a while, now she is fired up again because of a viewer.
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pointing people to a repository that has not seen an update for 3 years is not what I call being fired up
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it only gives people false expectations
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would be better if realistic goalposts were set
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: sorry why are we talking about what this person will do or not do?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: or that person ?
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: no point, and not polite either
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I've even read a comment by one person that basically asked if the project needs an OpenSim specific viewer. There are all kinds of ideas about what is needed and how to move forward.
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: so.. opensim issues? questions ?
[11:50] Unknown UserUMMAU42: Let's talk about the subject of this new viewer once it has a team together and some work actually starts, till then it is just vaporware
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: and btw work on ll derived viewers like what gavin is doing, is relevant
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Bill
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have brought the code forward to the point I can add Bento
[11:51] Unknown UserUMMAU42: cool
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks keeps wondering why Kayaker is sitting at an odd angle on some odd object that is bobbing up and down in mid air
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bento is about 250+ commits
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: You've been busy, Gavin. :)
[11:52] Kayaker.Magic @hg.osgrid.org is meditating
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: This week has been a busy one for me so I haven't done all the updates i wanted to make to the OSSL wiki pages. I have added the new osString functions and placed all the string related ones in to a separate category on the page that lists the implemented OSSL functions.
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I still wonder about the confusion that might get caused by having osFormatString and osStringFormat where they take different sets of arguments.
[11:55] Bill Blight: added new os function today Andrew
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I kindoff have
[11:55] Bill Blight: LOL
[11:55] Bill Blight: :P
[11:55] Bill Blight: to the code
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a build just takes 3,5 hours on my VM
[11:55] Bill Blight: not the wiki
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it is a bit slow
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, the new osString functions were added a week or three ago. I'd have to check the dates.
[11:56] Bill Blight: No I was saying we added a new os function to the codebase today that will need to be added to the wiki, I'll try to do that later today
[11:56] Kayaker Magic: What new function?
[11:56] Bill Blight: osNpcSayTo
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: The new functions were added around the 18th of November.
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: The new string ones I mean.
[11:57] Bill Blight: there is a test box for it sitting at the middle of the bar, click it
[11:57] Bill Blight: NPC talks only to you
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, right. There has been quite a few functions recently added. I've been trying to keep on top of the additions and at least getting added to the list of available functions.
[11:58] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: oh thats cool
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there anyone here who usually has to leave near the top of the hour have a topic they wish to discuss?
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm realizing today is the 11th. We will have a meeting on the 18th. Looking at the calendar the next two meetings after that fall on Christmas Day and New Years Day.
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: well about the changes 0.91/0.9001
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: then changes on the http server...
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I think it might be best to cancel the meetings for those two days and meet again on the 8th of January.
[12:03] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I agree
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, maybe I have Bento version ready for Christmas then
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: to improve handling of keepalive and even http pipeline
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: then fixes, new bugs.. the usual
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, Gavins Christmas gift for us all. :)
[12:03] Kayaker Magic: You added new bugs?
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: don't i always ?
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bugs often become features, hehe
[12:04] Bill Blight: no bugs NO BUGS, only "Support Challenged Features"
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: :)