Chat log from the meeting on 2018-10-30

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This weeks meeting was held at Outreach because osgrid was down for maintenance.

[10:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Ubit
[10:57] Ubit.Umarov hi
[10:57] Bill Blight: Howdy Mr. BoxHand
[10:58] Ubit.Umarov grr don't understand that AI issue
[10:58] Ubit.Umarov just can't repo it
[10:58] Bill Blight: It fully sounds like networking to me
[10:58] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[10:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I was going to comment on the box.
[10:58] Ubit.Umarov ohh the test box :)
[10:58] Leighton.Marjoram Hello every one :)
[10:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Leighton
[10:59] Ubit.Umarov this is my avatar on my test grid
[10:59] Ubit.Umarov hi
[10:59] Bill Blight: Howdy Leighton
[10:59] Bill Blight: Howdy Gavin
[10:59] Gavin.Hird Evening everyone!
[10:59] Leighton.Marjoram hi Gavin
[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Gavin.
[11:01] Arielle.Popstar touches everyone to make them texturize
[11:01] Gavin.Hird We went back to wintertime on Sunday and I can never remember which way that shifts it in relation to the US, but I seem to be right
[11:01] Ubit.Umarov yeah we changed 2 last sunday
[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: You just have to pop in and check the grid time and compare it to your new local time to see how it affected things.
[11:02] Ubit.Umarov now EU is considering stop using time change
[11:02] Ubit.Umarov will go on vote soon
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Interesting. The clocks haven't changed where I am yet.
[11:02] Gavin.Hird yep
[11:02] Ubit.Umarov my gov is against
[11:02] Gavin.Hird Most people here want to be on winter time all year, but the EU wants sumemrtime all year
[11:02] Ubit.Umarov err no
[11:02] Ubit.Umarov each country will decide later
[11:03] Ubit.Umarov if stay for even in summer or winter
[11:03] Ubit.Umarov for ever..
[11:03] Arielle.Popstar will be even bigger mess
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: well, its nicer to have light later in the day during the summer but the question is how it affects when the sun sets during the winter.
[11:03] Gavin.Hird being on summertime in the winter makes the mornings very dark here
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: The winter days are short enough.
[11:03] Ubit.Umarov typical EU
[11:04] Ubit.Umarov if they stop changing they all should be on same wither winter or summer.. but no... each will choose
[11:04] Gavin.Hird in the middle of summer the sun is only dwon 3 hours anyway
[11:04] Gavin.Hird down*
[11:04] Bill Blight: I did pop over to Metro and message Sheera, but looks like she may not make it .
[11:04] Ubit.Umarov well thing is how we did decided work hours etc
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, you must be pretty far north.
[11:05] Gavin.Hird I am on 59 deg north
[11:05] Ubit.Umarov the work hours are not simetric to midday
[11:05] Gavin.Hird that is southwest Norway
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, ah, ok. I'm nearer the 49th parallel.
[11:06] Ubit.Umarov here we are on utc again
[11:07] Ubit.Umarov well on on of the utc versions
[11:08] Ubit.Umarov well the hour change is always a pain
[11:09] Gavin.Hird and a source of cunfusion
[11:09] Gavin.Hird confusion*
[11:09] Ubit.Umarov yeap
[11:10] Ubit.Umarov and some claim not good for health
[11:10] Gavin.Hird some claim the cows get upset
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks This could be a short meeting today with some of the regulars not being here.
[11:14] Gavin.Hird What happened over at OSG?
[11:14] Bill Blight: yeah osgrid being down and the time change have sent some into a tailspin
[11:14] Ubit.Umarov or a long one to compensate the time change confusiong :)
[11:14] Bill Blight: that too
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks They had two hard drive failures.
[11:14] Gavin.Hird again?
[11:14] Ubit.Umarov what is the utc time now ?
[11:14] Bill Blight: raid rebuilds take a while
[11:15] Ubit.Umarov it is 18:15 UTC
[11:15] Ubit.Umarov meeting is suposed to be at 19:00 UTC
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks Two hdd's need to be replaced. one first has to rebuild, then a second. Only one server has problems, but in order to resync the database, the grid must be offline. This will take time, estimated 3-4 days (Dan Banner via IRC)
[11:16] Gavin.Hird are they running RAID 5?
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks I have no idea but it sounds like they are using something more than just RAID 1.
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar is it unusual for 2 drives to go like that?
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar and can that have happened as a result of a bad script?
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks I don't know the full details. You would have to ask Dan. The two drives may have been in different arrays.
[11:19] Gavin.Hird I am running my db on RAID 1 + 0 with 3 drives in each mirror set
[11:19] Gavin.Hird you have to be pretty unlucky of you have one drive fail on each set at the same time
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks My machine is on RAID 1 with an external backup.
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov well disks do die
[11:20] Gavin.Hird they do
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar but preety unudsual at thesame time?
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks yup. I had one die on my machine but I didn't lose any data due to the mirror.
[11:20] Gavin.Hird 3 weeks ago I woke up to a high pitch sound of a drive that had crashed
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov if you set raid for performance... it dies when one does
[11:20] Gavin.Hird thankfully that machine was mirrored so it was only a matter of replacing the drive
[11:21] Bill Blight: I use lsyncd and just keep a real time sync to a backup server
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks lsyncd?
[11:21] Ubit.Umarov about this meeting hours
[11:21] Bill Blight: lsyncd is pretty much a daemon version of rsync that monitors file changes and syncs them
[11:22] Ubit.Umarov you do notice we say 19:00 UTC and it is still 18:21 utc ?
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, ah, ok. Nice.
[11:22] Gavin.Hird Ubit people are not on UTC but on timezones
[11:22] Ubit.Umarov no
[11:22] Gavin.Hird the meeting used to be at 20.00 CET and not it is on 19.00CET
[11:22] Ubit.Umarov all ppl is on UTC
[11:22] Ubit.Umarov thats why there is utc
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks What does the page say apart from the UTC time?
[11:23] Gavin.Hird so for almost all of Europe it moved back one hour
[11:23] Ubit.Umarov U means universal
[11:23] Ubit.Umarov that all ppl should need to know UTC and local time
[11:23] Bill Blight: People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a nonlinear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks hehe
[11:24] Ubit.Umarov well clock time is like that bc we do depend on sun
[11:24] Ubit.Umarov our bio is sync to it
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks Does anyone know if some of the other regular attendees of this meeting are in the EU?
[11:24] Gavin.Hird that people don't meet could also be they are not on the mailing list so therefor did not pick up the changed location?
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks That's also likely, Gavin.
[11:24] Ubit.Umarov when does us change time ?
[11:25] Bill Blight: this sunday
[11:25] Ubit.Umarov so more confusion again
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks If we had thought about it earlier Dan could have put up a notice on the osgrid login screen to give the location for todays meeting.
[11:25] Bill Blight: I tweeted to osgrid, but who knows
[11:26] Ubit.Umarov well most the regulares are here already :)
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks nods
[11:26] Bill Blight: I bet sheera will be here in 30
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks Has anyone seen Misterblue recently?
[11:26] Gavin.Hird When the US change there is less confusion as the difference between the EU and US are back to normal
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar speaking of meeting time....I was asking Dan banner last week why he never attended these meetings as his input would be valuable being the admin of the Opensim test Grid. His response was that he is at work. This wasnt the case back in Nebadon's era so maybe the Yuesday afternooon meeting could be moved to a better day and time for Dan to also be able to attend?
[11:27] Arielle.Popstar Maybe a weekend would be better
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks I'm not so sure about that. For some yes, but not so much for me.
[11:28] Ubit.Umarov well this day is legacy
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks I like to be able to take the weekends off to work on my own projects.
[11:28] Ubit.Umarov there used to be 2 meetings it seems
[11:28] Ubit.Umarov per week
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar well thing is this is to talk about code changes but the people most knowledgable about the effects cant be here
[11:29] Gavin.Hird plus I think OSG already has a Saturday meeting at a time idal for as many timezones as possible
[11:29] Ubit.Umarov well 11 PDT is correct.. pdt will soon change to PST
[11:29] Ubit.Umarov grrrr
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar thats a town hall meeting for the community
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar not so much about code
[11:29] Ubit.Umarov WHY DO WE USE THAT???
[11:29] Ubit.Umarov :)
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar who cares
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar its just time
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks I'd like to get some information about physics engine differences so it can be put on the website. We don't have a page that I know about which tells you how mesh objects will behave across the different physics engine if the uploaded object was uploaded without a physics model.
[11:29] Gavin.Hird you know why Ubit ;-)
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar depends who youi ask
[11:31] Ubit.Umarov well i always considered the use of pdt a provician choice
[11:31] Arielle.Popstar can we stick to dev subjects Ubit?
[11:31] Ubit.Umarov any world wide thing must use UTC
[11:31] Bill Blight: Just because it uses what SL uses , if every grid ran on it's own time it would be very confusing , but I'd be ok with UTC , but "viewers"
[11:32] Ubit.Umarov who are you do decide what is a Dev issue arielle.Popstar LOL
[11:32] Arielle.Popstar Andrew chairs the meeting
[11:32] Arielle.Popstar he put a question out
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar want to talk about the code chasnge that strips clothing off on a double click?
[11:33] Ubit.Umarov well that question has answers on several places, including our web sitge
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar who thought that one up?\
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks Ubit, Good to know. Is it easy to find that information? Links to those pages should be added to the bottom of the page about the proper way to upload mesh objects.
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks In the last few days I've been dealing with some people having problem with mesh objects. Mainly due to how the objects had been uploaded. I think they uploaded a number of mesh objects without physics which became a problem for them when they started using BulletSim after they had been using *gasp*ODE*gasp* physics.
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks I know the different engines handle things differently when a model had no physics model assigned when the model was uploaded.
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks It would also be nice to see a summary of differences in the physics engines when it comes to support for vehicle related function calls.
[11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks I've had trouble with a balloon script that uses bouyancy and I've heard of someone who changed a script to use llSetRot because the torque functions weren't implemented.
[11:38] Bill Blight:
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar site cant be reached
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar oh finally
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, right. That is the page that should include, or point to, information about how different engines will handle the situation of no physics model being uploaded at the same time as the object.
[11:42] Bill Blight: If you must have a physics model, try uploading it on another region running BulletSim, ODE, an older version of OpenSim or some combination. Carry the mesh home in your suitcase if necessary.
[11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks The page has a comment about an object with no physics and what happens if you want to use it with ubODE but there is nothing about how BulletSim would handle the same item.
[11:43] Bill Blight: Bullet sim fakes the physics mesh from the visual mesh which usually makes it much heavier
[11:44] Arielle.Popstar but more user friendly for objects without a physics map
[11:44] Andrew.Hellershanks nods
[11:44] Bill Blight: easy does not mean better
[11:44] Arielle.Popstar no but in opensim cpu and ram is cheap
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks Right. I've uploaded a couple of mesh objects lately and I went to the effort of using simple prims to build up a model for the object physics.
[11:45] Bill Blight: and evidently IQ is not a prerequisite
[11:45] Arielle.Popstar quite right
[11:45] Arielle.Popstar we cant all be geniuses
[11:45] Bill Blight: obviously
[11:46] Arielle.Popstar up to programmers and coders to make our lives easier
[11:46] Bill Blight: you really think that is their job?
[11:46] Bill Blight: I stand on my previous comment
[11:47] Andrew.Hellershanks :)
[11:47] Arielle.Popstar want to go back to the days of pen and paper?
[11:47] Andrew.Hellershanks It would be nice if all programmers and coders aimed to make our lives easier but it doesn't always work out that way.
[11:47] Bill Blight: no because I am willing to learn new things
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar you have talentds i dont Bill
[11:48] Bill Blight: The ability to learn is only limited by ones willingness to do so
[11:49] Andrew.Hellershanks Thank you for the comments about mesh behaviour when there is a lack of physics model. I'll update the wiki page and have Ubit and/or misterblue check the updates to make sure I got it written down correctly.
[11:49] Arielle.Popstar we all have different talents
[11:49] Andrew.Hellershanks Any other OpenSim topic for today?
[11:49] Gavin.Hird There was some discussion about the viewer on G+ and another blog.
[11:49] Gavin.Hird did anyone see it?
[11:49] Arielle.Popstar no
[11:50] Arielle.Popstar link Gavin?
[11:50] Andrew.Hellershanks I don't think I've seen it. I almost never look at G+.
[11:50] Gavin.Hird let me find a link - hang on
[11:51] Gavin.Hird
[11:51] Andrew.Hellershanks I did see one viewer related bit of news this past week. I'll wait until Gavin is finished.
[11:51] Gavin.Hird see if this works
[11:54] Arielle.Popstar missed that thread
[11:54] Andrew.Hellershanks I had not seen that. Interesting.
[11:54] Andrew.Hellershanks waves to JayR  :)
[11:56] Arielle.Popstar i was at a recent FS class and at the end of it asked the FS dev how much difference there was between the s/l and Opensim vesrions. Her response was about 7-8 lines of code
[11:56] Gavin.Hird untrue
[11:56] Arielle.Popstar yeah i couldnt see that
[11:56] Arielle.Popstar the havok alone would be more then that
[11:56] Arielle.Popstar but i reasked her and she doubled down that thats what it was
[11:57] Bill Blight: there are hundreds of #if opensim statements in that code if not thousands
[11:57] Gavin.Hird exactly
[11:57] Andrew.Hellershanks If it was so few lines difference FS wouldn't have made some comments about how much they will be supporting OpenSim in their viewer.
[11:58] Andrew.Hellershanks I was under the impression that they were mostly supporting use of FS with SL.
[11:58] Arielle.Popstar if not FS then sounds like Sing is the only option
[11:58] Bill Blight: the biggest and most annoying one is their force disable of the http pipeline for opensim
[11:59] Arielle.Popstar no progress on a windows Kokuah Gavin?
[11:59] Gavin.Hird Bill is going to give it a go
[11:59] Bill Blight: I have a feeling that it is not telling the server that it is disable either and the server keeps trying to use the pipeline
[12:00] Ubit.Umarov use of pipeline is transparent
[12:00] Bill Blight: yes I know, but on my version when I turn it off the http timeouts almost go away, on the stock version I still see them hit the viewer
[12:00] Gavin.Hird the pipeline is just a change of default user settings
[12:00] Ubit.Umarov http pipeline is just keep sending http requests on same connection without waiting for the answer to previus ones
[12:01] Ubit.Umarov ( and keeping order )
[12:01] Bill Blight: yes but in FS it is force disabled, the check boxes do nothing
[12:01] Andrew.Hellershanks I wish Siana the best and hope she gets a decent response from people wanting to support her continued work on Singularity. It has (or had) been my main viewer for many years.
[12:01] Gavin.Hird there is a line of code that needs to be changed in FS too perhaps
[12:02] Andrew.Hellershanks Not sure why I've been using FS a bit more often lately.
[12:02] Arielle.Popstar it has some issues lately on newer code
[12:02] Arielle.Popstar it needs fixes
[12:02] Bill Blight: <FS:Ansariel> FIRE-17287: Force HttpPipelining off on OpenSim
[12:03] Ubit.Umarov FS was asked to change the default of http pipeline to OFF on opensim, they just killed it all
[12:03] Bill Blight: yep
[12:03] Bill Blight: it is not just a default off, it is a force disable
[12:04] Ubit.Umarov i know
[12:05] Andrew.Hellershanks It is one thing to default it to off. Having it off in the code with no way to turn it on seems a little harsh.
[12:06] Bill Blight: yep
[12:06] Andrew.Hellershanks Are the first two statements in FIRE-17287 valid?
[12:06] Andrew.Hellershanks The report was from 2015. A lot has happened since then with the OpenSim code.
[12:07] Bill Blight: yes
[12:07] Ubit.Umarov yes it was valid till 0.9,1
[12:07] Bill Blight: very valid
[12:07] Bill Blight: LOL
[12:07] Bill Blight: but now it robs speed
[12:08] Andrew.Hellershanks If that is the case the report needs to be re-opened to make a request to re-enable the feature, or a new report opened to make the request for use with OS 0.9
[12:09] Andrew.Hellershanks While we are on the subject of viewers I recently read a comment from Christopher Colosi (the person behind Gloebit) that there is viewer code patch available to support use of multiple currencies within a grid.
[12:10] Bill Blight: it is in FS
[12:10] Gavin.Hird there is
[12:10] Gavin.Hird I have not taken it
[12:10] Andrew.Hellershanks The viewer patch will update the currency symbols when you TP between regions using different currency modules.
[12:10] Bill Blight: yes that is in the current FS
[12:11] Gavin.Hird because the code on region crossings are a bit of a mess in Kokua
[12:11] Gavin.Hird so no need to add to it
[12:11] Gavin.Hird right now
[12:11] Andrew.Hellershanks yes, the patch has been made for FS. Colosi is hoping it might get picked up by other viewers.
[12:11] Gavin.Hird there are other things that needs to be fixed first
[12:12] Ubit.Umarov crossings code is a mess everywhere :)
[12:12] Gavin.Hird yup
[12:12] Gavin.Hird no need to add to the confusion with being busy updating a currency symbol
[12:12] Andrew.Hellershanks I'm sure there are other higher priority items but at least there is a patch available for this one for those who want to pick it up.
[12:13] Bill Blight: if the symbol of the currency confuses you , you have bigger issues than that .. :P
[12:13] Andrew.Hellershanks :)
[12:14] Andrew.Hellershanks I know of at least one grid that supports more than one currency.
[12:14] Gavin.Hird confusion in the code
[12:14] Arielle.Popstar The impportant part is that I have 0 of whatever currency
[12:14] Bill Blight: Well yeah, but the symbol is just a symbol, could be anything
[12:14] Bill Blight: the number is what matters
[12:14] Andrew.Hellershanks Arielle, :)
[12:15] Bill Blight: I could call my money "Bite Me Coins" and as long as the amount you have is right that is what people should be concerned with
[12:16] Bill Blight: not saying that it is not cool, just bigger fish
[12:16] Andrew.Hellershanks True but some people might worry why the number drops when they change region if they don't realize the new region uses a different currency.
[12:16] Bill Blight: I'd say that is a region owners responsibility to tell them
[12:17] Bill Blight: and it is not a "simple" patch either
[12:17] Gavin.Hird Well, he also use it as a means of forcing grid owners to accept his currency when that might not be in the interest of the grid at all
[12:17] Gavin.Hird there are also privacy and tax issues with that currency seen from a non US standpoint
[12:18] Bill Blight:
[12:19] Andrew.Hellershanks It doesn't look as we are going to have anyone else show up for todays meeting even with the time change as we are now past the hour mark.
[12:20] Gavin.Hird good - I am busy upgrading Xcode :-))
[12:20] Andrew.Hellershanks Any other topics for today? If not, we can call this one done and dusted.
[12:21] Andrew.Hellershanks I see no signs of anyone in the middle of typing something so that will do it for this week.
[12:21] Admin/Spell Hud: Bill Blight is casting FIREBALL
[12:21] Admin/Spell Hud whispers: Anál nathrach, orth’
[12:21] Admin/Spell Hud whispers: bháis’s bethad, do chél dénmha
[12:21] Admin/Spell Hud whispers: Fireball target is,
[12:21] Andrew.Hellershanks Thank you, Bill for providing this emergency meeting location.
[12:21] Bill Blight: hehe
[12:21] FIREBALL1 whispers: My Target is out of range, (536.771124m) dispelling Fireball
[12:22] Gavin.Hird Thanks Bill and cheers everyone
[12:22] Andrew.Hellershanks If all goes well with osgrid we will meet back at our usual place next week.
[12:22] Gavin.Hird let's hope so
[12:22] Andrew.Hellershanks oh, and Happy Halloween to those of you who celebrate Halloween.
[12:22] Leighton.Marjoram Bye for now everyone see you next week. :)
[12:22] Bill Blight: I'll keep this around just in case
[12:22] Gavin.Hird Bye
[12:22] Andrew.Hellershanks Thank you all for coming. See you next week.

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