Chat log from the meeting on 2018-10-23

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[11:11] Marcus Llewellyn: Anyone gonna be at OSCC this year?
[11:11] Leighton.Marjoram I am going MArkus 4th year
[11:12] Marcus Llewellyn: Awesome! :)
[11:12] Fu Barr: I might be... if I can get my 'stuff' in order.
[11:12] Eldovar.Lamilton I will attend OSCC
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: I saw Andrew Sunday at a Kitely meeting.
[11:12] Bill Blight: as soon as they post the crowdfunder booth info, hope to grab a booth
[11:12] Bill Blight: "Secret Project" HAHAH
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: OSCC is happening? When?
[11:12] Bill Blight looks at Leighton
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: he was at irc at 15:00 WEST
[11:13] Leighton.Marjoram flüstert: taps nose knowingly at Bill
[11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: Hmmm... will have to see when the crowdfunding becomes active.
[11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: It will be Dec 8-9, Kayaker. They're accepting proposals if you got one. :)
[11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: I always enjoy your presentations. :)
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: oscc? not sure ill be there this year
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: don't see much point
[11:14] Gavin.Hird agreed Ubit
[11:14] Eldovar.Lamilton OSCC starts tomorrowThe 2018 OpenSimulator Community Conference (OSCC) will take place on Saturday 8th and Sunday 9th December 2018.
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: I wonder if the OSCC grid will still be running 0.8.2
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar lots of commits the last couple weeks i see
[11:15] Gavin.Hird What was the reason for removing the tempattachment module?
[11:15] Marcus Llewellyn: Unfortunately, it will be running 0.8.2. With Nebadon on sabbitacal, getting access to upgrade has been problematic. :(
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: Andrew arrinving
[11:15] Bill Blight: hmmm
[11:16] Leighton.Marjoram flüstert: sarcastically says "you've only had year between conferences"
[11:16] Bill Blight: May have to put a HG portal then, because most of my newer stuff will not work on .8x'
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: yeah really don't see much point going there
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: but will see
[11:17] Bill Blight: Welcome to OSCC 2012 umm I mean 2018
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: it has now little relation to opensimulator etcv
[11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: They're still hoping to talk up the newest version of Opensim.
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: new version? what new version? 0.9x is now old :p
[11:18] Leighton.Marjoram nods @ Ubit
[11:18] Bill Blight: will be 3 years old by then
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar when was the first release again/.?
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar in the past year?
[11:19] Marcus Llewellyn: I think that OSCC's grid version missed the point. :) There are people there who want to know how development has been going, and how they can leverage the work that has been done.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: im sure other core devs will be there
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar there are others?
[11:21] Marcus Llewellyn: I rather hope so. Most people expect a core dev presence as the initial keynote.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: but ill think about it
[11:21] Bill Blight: Actively contributing core devs other than Ubit are hard to find
[11:21] Arielle.Popstar very
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: just last yr already seen no much point
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar begs the question why they are
[11:22] Gavin.Hird just make a NPC and nobody will spot the difference
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: LOL
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar make room for new blood
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar hehe Gavin
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: at somepoints even insulting.. but whatever
[11:23] Marcus Llewellyn: I'm sure nobody wanted you to feel insulted. What made you feel thay way?
[11:23] Bill Blight: I know exactly what you mean Ubit
[11:23] Bill Blight: Last year was a bash 9x fest
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks Arielle, yup. Plenty of room for new blood.
[11:24] Leighton.Marjoram I appreciate how you feel Ubit, but it will be strange to have a conference about Opensim without you being there.
[11:24] Eldovar.Lamilton indeed
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar i think thats turned around now Bill
[11:24] Marcus Llewellyn: I would very much like some insight into that perception, Bill.
[11:25] Bill Blight: it is simple, "Talk about what we can do and not what we can't do"
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks The OSCC regions need to be updated to run under 0.9 for this years event.
[11:25] Bill Blight: yep
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: but well oscc is not this meetings subject
[11:25] Bill Blight: otherwise it is a slap to the whole team
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: any questions about dev ?
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar already was Ubit
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar Gavins
[11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: I agree, Andrew. Very much so. But the OSCC grid is hosted by UCI, and getting a hold of diva has been difficult.
[11:25] Gavin.Hird if not updated it would be yesterday's news
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: ahh
[11:26] Leighton.Marjoram they said last year they ran out of time to do the upgrade seems that will be the reason again this year.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: i moved the func to better places gavin.Hird
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks Leighton, could be.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: no need for a full module for that
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks I thought nebadon might have been in a position to update the grid.
[11:26] Gavin.Hird ok Ubit
[11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Nebadon has been inactive where the conference is concerned, unfortunately.
[11:27] Arielle.Popstar does it affect the functionality Ubit?
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: i had dropped a comand, but by ppl request recovered it today
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: i also deleted a attachments comand module that had ONE comand
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: again no need for a full module to do that
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: several more modules like that
[11:29] Bill Blight: Yeah time for "Module Fever" to be over with
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: that imo make no much sense
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: yeah modules only make sense up to a point
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: then are just waste of resources
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: and those were funny non optional optional modules
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: ( well again like others still there )
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: i also added suport for scripts syntax capability
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: and of course a viewers fail
[11:31] Gavin.Hird right
[11:31] Gavin.Hird well
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: fs does not allow any override to that they had defined
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks Ubit, care to elaborate what you mean by scripts syntax capability?
[11:31] Gavin.Hird first of all, the viewers will never check for syntax updates on region crossing because in SL there is no need for it
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: alch updates some..
[11:31] Gavin.Hird it is received on login and is constant
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: they do check on crossings
[11:32] Gavin.Hird that should be the case for OpenSim too
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: sorry it is per region and it is checked
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: if not everytime you edit a script
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: that is not the issue
[11:32] Gavin.Hird what viewer did you test?
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: both FS and alch
[11:33] Gavin.Hird OK, but the Alch code has not been updated for a almost 2 years
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: alch even drops what it did know after a crossing
[11:33] Gavin.Hird FS read the syntax from their onw XML
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: and is based on FS isnt it?
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: that code is identical to FS on the main part
[11:33] Gavin.Hird so does the Kokua code
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: but FS does not drop what it got about ossl etc
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: so.. yeach.. bad
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: it has even wrong information there
[11:34] Bill Blight: FS does pull the syntax but favors it's built in
[11:34] Gavin.Hird I don't think FS have had any commit to that OSSL xml for some time
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: including a function i never seen on our code :)
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: alch has no ossl defines
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: so it does get "mine"
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: to be useful for us, viewers should do a full replacement
[11:36] Gavin.Hird In any case, there is no point in checking it on every region crossing, because the viewer only need to recieve the def once per session
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: it checks the version on script edition
[11:36] Gavin.Hird it should not even have to do that
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: they get the version with simulator features
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: yes they should :)
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: it is is a uuid check.. no big issue
[11:37] Gavin.Hird it could retrieve the def on initialization from own XMl and do an update on login
[11:37] Gavin.Hird if available
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: that does not work for us
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: it is region feature not grid feature
[11:37] Gavin.Hird then use that def throughout the session
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: and ll did that ok
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: they also assume it region feature
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: guess original ll code would work fine for us
[11:38] Marcus Llewellyn blames the kids today.
[11:38] Gavin.Hird no wonder region crossing are slow
[11:39] Gavin.Hird the less work you do on region crossings the better
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: gavin.Hird
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: it is on simuator features
[11:40] Gavin.Hird and I say it is not necessary to do it on every region crossing
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: the download only happens if you edit a script and there is a version mismatch
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: and that is as it should ... it is ok
[11:40] Gavin.Hird if you have the full definitions of the LSL and OSSL language on viewer init, not need to check it more
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: only if viewers actually did it right
[11:40] Gavin.Hird even if the region only use a subset
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, how would you handle crossing in to a region that has additional OSSL functions?
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: well it does not do it on regions crossings.. that was lang mistake
[11:41] Gavin.Hird if you open a script in another region, you still want the full syntax to be avilable and not whatever the region owner supplies
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: no you do not
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: it will not compile there
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: so waste of time
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: and regions owners should not touch that
[11:42] Gavin.Hird flüstert: well, they obviously do with whatever xml are in the simulator bin
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: we do provide the file ( when we dont forget )
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: well of course they can change it as they change code..
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: their thing
[11:43] Gavin.Hird yes
[11:44] Gavin.Hird you, as a visitor will still want the editor to know the full syntax
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: but as i said, for now that is defective with fs
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: it will list the new functions we did add
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: does not touch any other ( even the wrong ones )
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: and all will tell you about energy, that we do not have :)
[11:45] Gavin.Hird I know
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: well that and a few bug fixes ( or try) was all on code front, i think
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: and a few patchs accepted ( with changes )
[11:47] Gavin.Hird all good stuff
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Have the syntax errors in fs been reported to them?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: good luck with that :p
[11:48] Gavin.Hird you have to write a JIRA
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, yea. :P
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: me? no thanks.. been there.. no more
[11:49] Gavin.Hird for all practical purposes FS is now a department of LL
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: like we have to do Mantises?
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: im out looking for viewer devs
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: if any viewer dev wants to really support opensim, he should talk to us
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: not the other way around
[11:50] JayR.Cela
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: good luck with that
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: you bet
[11:50] Fu Barr: just as a matter of interest is there any viewer out there that sort of maybe might be semi-up-to-date wrt. opensim?
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: other way was a total fail in past
[11:51] JayR.Cela Siannagearz is looking for donors on Patreaon to resurect Singularity Viewer
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: onlook viewer was done by core devs wasnt it?
[11:51] JayR.Cela @Arielle / yes
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: onllok was only a concept test
[11:51] Gavin.Hird I don't think onlook will compile with anything current
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: with a few changes
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: why dont core devs update it then
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: JayR, donations won't help if there isn't anyone available to do the work.
[11:51] JayR.Cela :_(
[11:52] Fu Barr: i was quite interested in the moddable menu configs of onlook - but i never really saw it in use.
[11:52] Gavin.Hird Arielle, I don't you understand how much work there actually is in keeping a viewer running
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, viewer code is written in C++ so it needs someone who knows that language.
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: work to just compile a damm viewer :)
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: yes but there were core devs who did it so must be a few who do
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: The viewer source is also another big set of code someone needs time to learn.
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: then core opensim can keep a viewer up to date with changes
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: It took me a long time and multiple failed attempts before I was able to compile the viewer code.
[11:54] Fu Barr: yes. i looked into it at some point. when I had a RL project that would have benefited from viewer support/changes... but it seemed too complicated for the project budget and timeline.
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: maybe offer Sieanna a position on core
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: i did comp singu once and alchmy
[11:54] Gavin.Hird There are over 10300 files only in the core viewer source
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: but a total pain.. and missing dependencies etc
[11:54] Fu Barr: i build singu and alchemy... but it was very painful
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I've compiled both Singularity and Firestorm.
[11:55] Gavin.Hird in addition to some 40 libraries
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: singu could not comp in release, alch does not in debug :)
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: well on my tests
[11:55] Eldovar.Lamilton Is Firestorm source code openly accessible? I tried to get my hands on it, but didn't get access
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: FS was a total fail
[11:55] Fu Barr: yeah - it's a singular mess.... *giggle*
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: think Bill managed to compile fs
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm currently using a version of FS I compiled.
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Firestorm (Firestorm-private-bigred 64bit)
[11:56] Gavin.Hird FS code is at
[11:56] Gavin.Hird they don't publish their libraries
[11:57] Bill Blight: Im using 5.10.56126
[11:57] Fu Barr: singu source can be found via their website... there's instructions for complilation too.
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill: 5.10?
[11:58] Bill Blight: yes current tip from FS
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... that's quite the jump in version number. My FS isn't that old.
[11:58] Bill Blight: they jumped to 9 then to 10
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Last I checked the latest release was 5.1.6
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: --7 andrew
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: seems to me that if Opensim core wants a viewer for opensim then the best way is to offer a core position to one
[11:59] Eldovar.Lamilton I am running 5.1.7
[11:59] Bill Blight: jumped to 9 7 weeks ago
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Time for me to update my build.
[11:59] Bill Blight: and to 10 3 weeks ago
[11:59] Eldovar.Lamilton What do you mean by "offer a core position". Arielle?
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: otherwise it is just so much talk that never goes anywhere
[11:59] Gavin.Hird there is a note on their current dev code:
[11:59] Gavin.Hird ATTN Viewer Developers: Please do not add our original, pre-release code to other viewers before we release it ourselves.
[11:59] Bill Blight: yeah
[12:00] Bill Blight: hard to claim something like that on an opensource project
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: ll is opensource
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: the are only forced to be opensource
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:00] Gavin.Hird yeah, but increasibly paid libraries
[12:00] Bill Blight: They can't tell people to NOT use it
[12:01] Bill Blight: they can suggest, as is the "Please"
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: not necessary bc they want to be opensource, or even allow others to compile
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: they can't Bill
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: its that thing called lgpl
[12:02] Bill Blight: they can make it a suggestion, but it is worded badly .. they could say something like, "Please don't release unstable dev code in your viewers."
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: but just saying :)
[12:02] Gavin.Hird The other thing about the FS code, they don't release anything anymore unless approved by LL
[12:03] Bill Blight: well, the LL viewer, but that goes out the window for people compiling only for OpenSimulator
[12:03] Gavin.Hird and not before released by LL unless it is some piddly UI feature
[12:03] Bill Blight flüstert: and fixing the things that they neuter in OS
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: well i guess we will need to forget FS for opensim
[12:04] Gavin.Hird they will have to split the code
[12:04] Fu Barr: so what are we left with?
[12:04] Bill Blight: yep
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: cant code opensim for compatibility with FS?
[12:05] Gavin.Hird not really
[12:05] Fu Barr: that seems a little 'backward'
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: talking about OSCC Jessica spoke about dropping opensim at least 2 years in a row and some years ago , if my memory is right
[12:05] Bill Blight: someone forking FS once they go full LL or one of the existing viewers ... Need a windows coder to back up Gavini
[12:05] Bill Blight: I always liked Kokua
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: i do like fs.. damm :P)
[12:06] Gavin.Hird if someone want to start compiling the Kokua code for Win, there are probalby 1000 new commits to go into it
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: Jessica said in an open letter that she was misunderstoood
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: old news Ubit
[12:06] Bill Blight: if it will compile on windows I can compile it
[12:06] Gavin.Hird the current repository will compile as is
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: yeap misunderstud and did kept telling it
[12:06] Bill Blight: I'll pull the source and setup a dev environment in the next few days
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: they even did recomended alchemy didn't they ?
[12:06] Gavin.Hird then start picking up all the changes that are not Mac specific from the Mac respository
[12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: Kokua was meant to be the spiritual successor to Imprudence. This includes a heavy emphasis on open-source components and OpenSimulator compatibility. Sadly, they've lacked manpower.
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Most viewers seem to lack manpower.
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't tried building Kokua. I should try that one.
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: except FS
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm currently in the process of doing hard drive backups before upgrading my hard drives.
[12:08] Gavin.Hird here is the Kokua opensim repro
[12:08] Gavin.Hird Here is the mac version of it
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, which SCCS are they using for Kokua?
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: well one thing must be said.. it is a pain to maintain code both for SL and opensim
[12:10] Gavin.Hird mercurial
[12:10] Gavin.Hird with bitbucket
[12:10] Gavin.Hird same as LL does
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, ok.
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: and not getting any easier
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: We are past the hour mark. About time to wrap things up for this week unless anyone has any last minute topic.
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: hour started when you arrived at 2:20  :)
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Not quite.
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm pulling the Kokua source code and will try to build that once my backups are done.
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: cool
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Just another 300G (almost) to go.
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: does kokuah have rlv?
[12:16] Gavin.Hird yes
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Don't know. I have never used it in any viewer.
[12:16] Marcus Llewellyn: Last I knew it did
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: good
[12:16] Gavin.Hird It has the Marine Kelly version of RLV
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: i can get you a collar so you can test it
[12:16] Gavin.Hird and not the version FS use
[12:17] Gavin.Hird but it is a real pain to maintain
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: oh
[12:17] Eldovar.Lamilton why that, Gavin?
[12:17] Marcus Llewellyn: Kokua didn't take the kitchen sink approach FS did... they were picky about feature adoption.
[12:17] Gavin.Hird it steps all over the other code
[12:18] Arielle Popstar: so more control?
[12:18] Gavin.Hird what we would have to do is take the RLV updates from the SL version of Kokua and apply to the OS repository
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: The Kokua I have installed is Will be interesting to see what is the current source code version
[12:18] Gavin.Hird for the Mac version I just gave up maintaining it some 8 months ago
[12:18] Gavin.Hird it slowed me down too much
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: There was that modular viewer which got started a while back. If RLV could be made an add-on module to a viewer it would make it easier to maintain.
[12:20] Gavin.Hird much of the code is in the RLV addition, but it branch out everywhere with stupid exceptions even to the startup screen and renderer
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Why would it need to alter the start up screen and renderer?? That seems odd.
[12:21] Gavin.Hird Because they have this blind login feature
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: The only change to the start up screen might be to indicate that RLV is supported
[12:21] Marcus Llewellyn: The code base is kind F'd no matter how you slice it or where you start. It's so organic, such a hodgpodge, with fingers in so many pies at once....
[12:21] Gavin.Hird they kindoff log in to a black screen
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: um... ok.
[12:22] Gavin.Hird the idea is that some controller on the other end determines when they get to see anything of the session but black
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be easier to just attach a big black prim as a HUD to the viewer.
[12:23] Gavin.Hird You really have to be a BDSM nut to understand it (sorry about my characterization)
[12:24] Marcus Llewellyn: Thirty lashes with a wet noodle. ;)
[12:24] Gavin.Hird or a seal slapping you with a squid (did anyone see that video?)
[12:25] Gavin.Hird
[12:25] Dev Random: only applies to Kayakers, right?
[12:25] Leighton.Marjoram flüstert: *tentatively clicks link*
[12:26] Gavin.Hird Kayakers, yes
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: This might be a good time to end the meeting for this week. :)

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