Chat log from the meeting on 2018-08-28

Summary:
- Discussion of changes to the .ini-files since 0.8.x
- various money-modules and currencies

[11:01] Bill Blight: ok before we get rolling , just want to say, does anybody else find it odd that mantis' from as far back as 2015 are suddenly finding their way back to the top , regardless of if they are still, or ever were an actual bug?
[11:04] LaNani Sundara: sorry Bill, i don't know
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Hello all. Does this place rez faster than Hurliman?
[11:05] Bill Blight: She's armed and Dangero...... Amusing ... LOL
[11:05] LaNani Sundara: not the first time
[11:05] Bill Blight: Not had anybody say they have rezzing issues here
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: Oooh! We can rez here!
[11:06] LaNani Sundara: just something i made this week
[11:06] Bill Blight: Yes can rez here, script here, blow it up if you like, I'll make more
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: Hmm, I was thinking of making a t-shirt that slowly gets transparent when you hit it with a squirt gun or a watersoaker....
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: So OpenSim 0.9.1.1 is running here, is that master with httptests merged in?
[11:09] Bill Blight: well master with a couple minor tweaks, nothing that changes core performance
[11:09] Bill Blight: just like LSL delay patch and a couple other minor ones, nothing to the core
[11:09] LaNani Sundara: ok
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: I am trying to run the latest master. Does someone have an OpenSim.ini example that works with OSGrid?
[11:10] LaNani Sundara: on mono, i'd advise using the latest mono
[11:10] Bill Blight: you should be able to use the one that comes with the master, just modify the CONST
[11:10] Bill Blight: and modify the ones that come with master consistent with the ones that come with the osgrid download
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: I did that, it whines about missing sections.
[11:11] Bill Blight: hmmm
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why is the latest mono better?
[11:11] Bill Blight: that is what I did,
[11:11] LaNani Sundara: well some ppl had instabilities using older mono
[11:11] Bill Blight: newest mono seems to be a tad bit faster, less memory overhead
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I just updated to 5.12.0.301
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: And I have been bugging Andrew: What is the difference between PublicPort in the Const section and http_listener_port in the Network section?
[11:12] Bill Blight: 5.14 is the newest
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I know
[11:12] LaNani Sundara: 5.12 should be fine :)
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: Do I have to change both? Should I avoid using the same port for both?
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 5.12.0.301 is the one supported by VS
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I have mono 5.14.
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as of right now
[11:13] Bill Blight: Public port is the CONST used for GridMode, http_listener is the TCP/HTTP port that that region instance listens on
[11:14] Bill Blight: you don't want to change the PublicPort, as that is what it will use to connect to OSGRID services
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: So has anyone got the latest master version of OpenSim working on OSGrid?
[11:16] Bill Blight: you are sitting on it
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: May I please, please PLEASE have a copy of the OpenSim.ini that this region is using????!!!!!
[11:17] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: :-)
[11:17] Bill Blight: I can get it for you but not just the opensim.ini also grid common and gridhypergrid
[11:17] Bill Blight: and osslenable.ini
[11:17] Bill Blight: they all changed a bit
[11:17] LaNani Sundara: yep thats the ones you may want :)
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: That was my next question....
[11:18] Bill Blight: let me go dig them up
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm back again. We had a service person here at the house to fix a machine.
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: THANKS!
[11:18] LaNani Sundara: wb
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: So when I get the latest master working and ask it what version it is, it will say 0.9.1.1? or 0.9.2?
[11:19] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: welcome back, Andrew
[11:20] Bill Blight: 0.9.0.1 pretty sure
[11:20] LaNani Sundara: hmm ok seems no real topics today
[11:20] Bill Blight: OSGRID mislabled some of their builds
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: mine says 0.9.1.0 Dev - but then I am not on OSG
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: regression?
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: The OSGrid distribution has a very old style of OpenSim.ini, it is very different from the new ones. I'm having trouble creating a new one.
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: The new OpenSim.ini.example does not have a vivox section, can I crib one from and old file when the time comes?
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, you can copy the Vivox section from OpenSimDefaults.ini
[11:23] Kayaker Magic: Has anyone gotten the money server to work with the latest master?
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, you can compare the osgrid ini file against an older (0.8.2?) OpenSim.ini file to see what are the differences that need to be applied to the 0.9 ini file.
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Yes, I did that one line at a time. The result: "MuteListService missing from config". Then it hangs hard and has to be killed before I can try again.
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: You need to make changes to more than one file to get Open Sim running.
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: sounds not very user friendly
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: As was mentioned earlier, OpenSim.ini, GridCommon.ini, FlotsamCache.ini, and osslEnable.
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, it isn't.
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Going from 0.8.2 to 0.9 I believe even Grid.ini had to be changed a bit
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so why the changes?
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: any benefit?
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: There are some new settings. There were changes to some of the defaults. Some settings were removed from OS.ini that most people won't need to change. The osslEnable settings were moved in to their own file.
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: Thank you Bill for giving me those files! I downloaded them already.
[11:28] Kayaker Magic: Chomping at the bit to go get a region up on the new code!
[11:28] Bill Blight: sigh ... Some services were combined into single services such as the neighbor service, no longer a local and remote neighbor service, changes were made to support new fucntions and modules such as the Yengine, things change, welcome to the world of technology
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are also some services being renamed between 0.8.2 and 0.9
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I've asking nebadon whether he maintains the osgrid ini files on the osgrid website. If not, I will talk with Dan about getting them updated.
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so if you use your old files as the base, you basically have to diff them all
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: If MutelistService is missing that means that one of the ini files in bin/config-include wasn't set.
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: wasn't renamed and configured.
[11:29] Bill Blight: yes just like it says on the wiki, use the new files and adjust them
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, yes. It is a pain but when new OS releases come out it is best to diff the files to see what has changed and update your ini files as needed.
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: sounds like extensive ones this time
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I keep all my grid specific settings in a separate file to make life a bit easier.
[11:30] Kayaker Magic: OSGrid has such old ini files, the diff has gotten more and more extensive over time.
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I've gone through that cylcle of reviewing all settings many times. I know how much of a pita it is.
[11:31] Bill Blight: Same here Andrew
[11:31] Bill Blight: almost all my configs go in GridCommon.ini and I share that between instances
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Here are two examples of changes in Grid.ini between 0.8.2 and 0.9
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: [SimulationDataStore]
 ; LocalServiceModule = "OpenSim.Services.Connectors.dll:SimulationDataService"
LocalServiceModule = "OpenSim.Services.SimulationService.dll:SimulationDataService"

[EstateDataStore]
 ; LocalServiceModule = "OpenSim.Services.Connectors.dll:EstateDataService"
LocalServiceModule = "OpenSim.Services.EstateService.dll:EstateDataService"
[11:31] Kayaker Magic: When I saw the [Const] section I was jazzed (OSGrid's ini does not have this). I thought "Cool! only one place I have to change things". WRONG!
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the old is commented out
[11:32] Bill Blight: yeah they did not update the configs really, but you can adjust them to use the CONST, not sure why they didn't
[11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: If someone at osgrid doesn't get to it I may create a new set of ini files based on current master. I'm currently reviewing the wiki pages documenting the OSSL functions. I discovered there are some functions not listed in the wiki.
[11:33] Bill Blight: you can really make extensive use of the CONST section if your INI files are complicated
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: why is it .9.0.1 rather than .9.1? I thought we had moved up a while ago
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: .9.1 is the current developer version
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 0.9.0.1 is the current release version
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I've made some good use of [Const] in one grid to make it easy to configure the regions.
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I have a common set of ini files used by all regions but have an ini file that defines a set of Const that are region specific.
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The ini files use the Const variables for the actual setting.
[11:37] Bill Blight: Yeah I have several other include files I can sub out when I need specific region configs and have them set as includes in my files so just a matter of putting the right include on the right server
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org nods
[11:37] Kayaker Magic: So the Public and PrivatePorts (8002m 8003?) are used to communicate with robust and the http_listener_port is used to communicate with the instance. What happens if you use the same port for PublicPort and http_listener_port? (I did this on one OSGrid region running an older version, and it seems to be working fine).
[11:38] Bill Blight: will work fine
[11:38] Bill Blight: as http is local to the system
[11:38] Bill Blight: the other is remote
[11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, yes. That's what I mentioned to you in Skype.
[11:38] Sheera Khan: I thought the difference would be http_listener using TCP and the others UDP?
[11:39] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: outworldz uses 8004 for http litener if i remember
[11:39] Bill Blight: that too sheera
[11:39] Bill Blight: region ini setting is UDP
[11:39] Bill Blight: http is TCP
[11:39] Bill Blight: they can be the same port
[11:39] Sheera Khan: TCP and UDP have independent ports
[11:39] Bill Blight: but they don't have to
[11:40] Bill Blight: as they are different protocols so they can share the same port
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have had instances where they did need to be
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: 9000 9001
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: normally no
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you have many regions per simulator, you only need one http port for the simulator, but every region nneds a UDP port
[11:41] Bill Blight: if running multiple regions in an instance they need to change for each region , but multiple regions per instance is not recommended
[11:41] Bill Blight: yeah Gavin beat me to it
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Lot of chat today. Kayaker, I think you asked about a money module. Depending on which one you want to use, or have used in the past, it may need an update as there were some changes to the money module API in 0.9
[11:41] Bill Blight: if using Gloebits you must use the one designated as master
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are using Gloebits you will need to tell them which version of code you are using to make sure you have the right version of their module.
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: What is the Japanese one called NDT?
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: DTL/NSL
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: Has anyone updated that one?
[11:42] Bill Blight: http://dev.gloebit.com/opensim/downloads/GMM-b73-2017-08-18/Gloebit-b73--0.9.1.0-dev--2017-08-18--MASTER.dll
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't recall if it has b been updated.
[11:43] Bill Blight: I got DTL working, and works fine, with master, but I don't trust it to make it public
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, that also shows 0.9.1 but it might still be ok for 0.9.0.1
[11:43] Bill Blight: yes
[11:43] Bill Blight: fine with that
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Best to look if there is a 0.9.0.1 specific version.
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: Is that the normal distrust of economy modules, or are there additional problems with DTL and recent masters?
[11:44] Bill Blight: no changes in the money api between those versions
[11:44] Bill Blight: there is no specific version for that Andrew
[11:44] Bill Blight: http://dev.gloebit.com/opensim/downloads/
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: I remember dealing with a different money module system where you had to keep an eye on what version of the money module you were using.
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, ok, np. I haven't been using it myself.
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OMC has different versions for different OS versions
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. That was the one I had used for a while.
[11:46] Bill Blight: Gloebit is sooo easy to setup
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: The DTLNSL system has been updated recently (10 days ago). The people who work on that code are bad developers. They provide no commit message when pushing new code.
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The problem with Gloebit from a European perspective is that they report to the IRS, so suddenly a European might have to pay US taxes even if both the owner and the grid is physically in Europe
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so NOT a great idea
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Easy to set up but you have to be willing to accept that even avatar to avatar transactions are charged a fee.
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but at least a possibbility to do
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and fee s minimal
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, well, that is debatable.
[11:49] Bill Blight: 2% flat rate
[11:49] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: better then what i pay to paypal
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus potential of 36% IRS tax witholding
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you are in Europe
[11:49] Bill Blight: Paypal also reports to the IRS
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but Paypal is usually represented by a local bank now
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: If you pass money back and forth between two avatars for long enough it will all disappear in charges.
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so there is no US taxation
[11:50] Bill Blight: yes andrew
[11:50] Bill Blight: but
[11:51] Bill Blight: there is also only a flat 2% on other transactions where others charge upwards of 30% so it comes out in the wash
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: In addition to the fees for passing money around you still have the fees in cashing out and in conversion of their $ to your local currency..
[11:52] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: gloebits also has a greater degree of privacy
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: Death and taxes.
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: The main benefit is that it is a currency many grids can use.
[11:52] Bill Blight: most places have a cash out fees, and they tend to be greater
[11:53] Bill Blight: and some of them you can't cash out at all ...
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: OMC was a bit like that but they also applied fees against your account when you had not been doing any transactions for a period of time. I had some OMC$ but lost it all to their fees when the grid I was using that used OMC shutdown.
[11:53] Bill Blight: So if you factor in, ease or setup, multi grid, multi avatar, and flat fees, it is a win in my book
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Yes, negative interest on an account.
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Higher cash in/out fees could wind up being cheaper than a fee on every movement of currency within the grid.
[11:54] Bill Blight: could be
[11:55] Bill Blight: but if that was the case, don't think gloebits would be growing as fast .. That is a just focusing on the negative Andrew
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not had any fees applied to the OMC holding of accounts that have been inactive for 2 years
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: With the recent shutdown of InWorldz it makes having a universal currency more appealing.
[11:55] Bill Blight: We need more of focusing on what we CAN DO, and less of what we CAN'T do in the Opensimulator community ..
[11:55] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: it should anyway
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OMC can also exchange to and from Bitcoin
[11:55] Bill Blight: gloebit can cash out to bitcoin now I think
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, perhaps they stopped doing that.
[11:55] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but still some grids wont adopt it
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I see the positives but I also see the negatives. Some people do not look at both sides.
[11:57] Bill Blight: look yes, harp and focus on the negative does more harm than good, we have enough real issues to spend time looking for more
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: This hour has flown by. Are there any other topics for today before we start losing some people?
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OMC has this fee for withdrawing to PayPal A handling fee of 1.00 EUR + 2% PayPal Fee per withdrawal will be charged.
[11:57] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: plus conversion fees
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There is A handling fee of 1.00 EUR per withdrawal to Skrill or an IBAN account
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that's similar to the fees you pay when cashing out money from SL.
[11:58] Bill Blight flüstert: this right here makes it worth it, if I was running a "store"
[11:58] Bill Blight: Chargeback Fees
When a consumer claims a charge to a credit card or other payment method was fraudulent, most payment providers not only take back the payment, but also charge a chargeback fee of $10-$25 per chargeback. Gloebit is handling these payments, and we are absorbing these chargeback fees. We may need to reclaim fraudulently spent gloebits, but we do not pass chargeback fees through to a merchant/developer.
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:58] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: that alone
[11:59] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: its a wonder that anyone uses paypal other than consumers
[11:59] Bill Blight: Fee on Disbursements
We charge the greater of $1 or the cost to us for withdrawing proceeds via the method you select.
[11:59] Bill Blight: http://dev.gloebit.com/pricing/
[12:00] Bill Blight: seems there might be some misinformation on how gloebits works floating around
[12:00] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: maybe or maybe some grids prefer you buy their local currency
[12:00] Bill Blight: That too Arielle
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: more currency in the system that way
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: that may never be spent
[12:01] Bill Blight: unless they are insured to handle money , I'd never use a "LOCAL" currency
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: bet s/l has literally billions sitting in dormant accounts
[12:02] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Lindens bought that they will never have to pay out
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Prior to OMC and Gloebits that would mean you wouldn't have used currency in almost all grids.
[12:02] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Don't they have to keep the same sum in real money somewhere?
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is probalby claimed for the grid when an account is deleted
[12:02] Bill Blight: yep and diddn't
[12:03] Bill Blight: I have purchased from Kitely but using paypal as much as I don't like PayPal
[12:03] Bill Blight: Don't even keep any KC there
[12:03] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: same here
[12:03] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: once
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: How you handle LOCAL grid currency is very different between the US and Europe
[12:03] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: wont again
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the US you have legislation for it
[12:03] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: What is the difference, Gavin?
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: How grids handle the money in dormant accounts is something that should be spelled out in a grids TOS. If not, you should ask.
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the EU there is NO regulation / legislation for virutal currencies
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you basically just sell a game token
[12:04] Bill Blight: regulation is one thing, common sense and trust is an entirely different matter
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I found I have some KC. Not sure how I wound up with any.
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the game token is subject to normal consumer legislation in EU