Chat log from the meeting on 2018-05-29

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Surprise Topic: Effect of the GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation)

[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Hello all! Am I fashionably late yet?
[11:03] Selby.Evans Nothing has happened so far
[11:04] Kayaker Magic: I'm trying to reproduce the slowdown in mantis 8251 in a small C# program.
[11:04] Kayaker Magic: It's hard when I don't speak C#
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: The idea is to write a program in C# that runs on the Linux console outside of OpenSim that demonstrates the same problem.
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Then submit that to the Mono group.
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: Quiet crowd today.....
[11:08] TG.Lucan I have seen visiting avatars with more than 20 scripts as part of their attachments, is that normal?
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: I once saw a hairdo that had a color change script in every flexie of hair. That was on SL.....
[11:09] George Equus: Doubt it... but Bento maybe?
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: And each one of those probably had an llListen....
[11:09] TG.Lucan oh
[11:11] TG.Lucan some weird stuff like repeated components, as though two of the same item as one attachment, big jumps in thread allocation
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Someone needs to write an article on things you should not do in LSL scripts, and how to get the same effect more efficiently....
[11:13] TG.Lucan true, but wondered if Opensim could be provided with additional protection, as you say some scripts are not sim friendly
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: Yengine solves some problems.
[11:14] TG.Lucan Not tested, though I had the impression it was not complete?
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: The script engine on IW solved others. For example scripts with while(1) DoSomething(); will run without bogging down the server.
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: It gets suspended regularly on IW to allow othr things to run.
[11:18] Selby.Evans Hi Leighton Nice work on Hypergrid Destinations
[11:19] Leighton.Marjoram Thank you Selby trying to bring order to chaos.
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar will it pre warn which destinations require ToS and privacy policy acceptance?
[11:20] Leighton.Marjoram If they have them but I am not getting in to the GDPR each businesses needs to seek their own solution grounded in legal advice.
[11:21] Leighton.Marjoram that is the line I have drawn for myself in relation to it.
[11:22] Leighton.Marjoram to maintain my own sanity.
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar just thinking that it may be of benefit to advise people of such pages so they can either pre authorize or at least understand whats happening
[11:23] Leighton.Marjoram absolutely I agree
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar in 3 months from now when the talk about it dies down, new people will be going WTF/>
[11:25] Leighton.Marjoram Probably, new legislation is tricky when it comes in as the tenets havent been tested in the wild. So hopefully as things settle and the GDPR finds it middle ground. Things will be cleaere.
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: I just back home after being out all morning.
[11:26] Selby.Evans For GDPR, the grids have to handle it -- You just go where you want and maybe get asked to agree to terms. The only problem is that you can't left click on the message. You must Right click and open a wep page.
[11:26] Leighton.Marjoram yeah thats a strange click through behaviour we are not used to with links. Took me a while to read the message to find the solution. hehe
[11:26] Arielle Popstar: yes Selby but just thinking of new people to hypergridding, which can be challenging enough on its own
[11:26] Bill.Blight Yes you can't ask for consent after the fact
[11:26] Selby.Evans I am writing an article about it for users/
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: I've gotten 18 Privacy Policy updates from places so far. Three from grids.
[11:27] Arielle Popstar: curious what percentage of grids are looking for authorizations
[11:28] Bill.Blight so it has to be done before the HG Teleport takes place
[11:28] Leighton.Marjoram backs out of the room quietly ...
[11:28] Selby.Evans That's why an article is needed -- for users just starting on the HG
[11:28] Leighton.Marjoram I think new users arent the issue any way ...
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: no0ds@ Selby
[11:29] Bill.Blight new users will be easier to educate than existing users
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: maybe
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: or they will just say TL;DR
[11:29] Bill.Blight then they won't make it very far
[11:30] Bill.Blight and they will go back and read, existing users just seem to be resisting because it is "New"
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: if metro, osgrid and a few other non commercial grids do not require it, there will be still plenty of destinations
[11:30] Bill.Blight "required" is a slippery slope, as there are provisions in the GDPR that can even be enforced on a person to person basis
[11:31] Leighton.Marjoram I would question that "do not require it" but as I said earlier they will have to defend their choices in court not me.
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: One of the grids I use occasionally wouldn't let people login until they had accepted the latest PP.
[11:31] Arielle Popstar: the forced consent issue
[11:31] Leighton.Marjoram All should have their decision clearly mapped out in a Data Processing Action Plan.
[11:31] Arielle Popstar: that will be interesting to see with google and facebook
[11:32] Leighton.Marjoram that will be the first up on the court docket for sure
[11:32] Bill.Blight If the various grids had the billions to throw around it might be easier to play fast and loose
[11:32] Leighton.Marjoram there is competing interests in that argument; GDPR compliance V provision of services without it
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: i wouldnt think such things would make it past a complaint, never mind court
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: at least for stuff like opensim
[11:33] Leighton.Marjoram Oh it will be a court ruling because its ambiguous as it currently stands.
[11:33] Bill.Blight Personally, I don't see the issue with informing the users , "this is how it works, this is how it has always worked, but, now we want you to know" , not informing the users is a cop out ..
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: informing is one thing, forcing a consent before use is another
[11:34] Leighton.Marjoram the forced consent thing is an existing customer issue, if you dont ask for consent you arent compliant, if you withhold a service they already used you are forcing their hand.
[11:34] Leighton.Marjoram tricky for sure
[11:34] Bill.Blight forcing you to agree before entering my house? How is that a problem?
[11:35] Bill.Blight Even before this "forced consent" I was still getting the SAME data
[11:35] Bill.Blight so the argument is "the dumber the better" ?
[11:36] Arielle Popstar: well i suspect many didnt know the extent of the data retention of some grids
[11:36] Leighton.Marjoram I am not saying I agree its forced consent but thats how it is being framed
[11:36] Bill.Blight I don't think it is forced consent either, you are free not to visit
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Forced consent becomes an issue for an existing user to a grid if they can't login without accepting the PP. If they don't want to accept it they wouldn't have access to any of their content they may want to save locally before abandoning the grid. Grid would do if someone couldn't login to a grid they had been using because they don't want to accept the latest PP.
[11:37] Bill.Blight forced consent is something that you have no choice and you HAVE to use .. No one is forced to take a HG teleport
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Delete the last sentence. I didn't get to cut that out.
[11:37] Bill.Blight Well Andrew, the GDPR has been coming for 2 years, a little late to be crying about not having your things backed up now ..
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: some grids dont allow backup or only partial
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: filtered
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not in the EU so I didn't know about it until recently. So far its not been an issue. Some systems updated PP's are easy to understand and some are still rather long. The GDPR doc is 88 pages long.
[11:39] Bill.Blight read the whole thing, twice
[11:39] Bill.Blight brain still hurts
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: each reading you will see new gotcha's
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't doubt it. I couldn't read that long a legal type document.
[11:39] Leighton.Marjoram I read it because I am an EU citizen with customers based here
[11:40] Leighton.Marjoram Its hard going but not the worst legislation I have read.
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: i liked Lena from metro pointing out that avatars are not natural persons so therefore do not require authorizations
[11:41] Leighton.Marjoram its a good work out for the interpretive faculties
[11:41] Bill.Blight Ok let's put it in these terms, websites started having "cookie consent" popups about 4 years ago, this is really the exact same thing .. When you click that cookie consent, you are agreeing that they have your data, and they can use it .. Why is this such an issue?
[11:42] Leighton.Marjoram I would not take anyones opinion or interpretation and base my business decisions on it. Thats a really bad strategy.
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: because Bill, many of us simply didnt realize that some grids actually keep PII on their systems for 7 years
[11:42] Bill.Blight haha
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I hate all those cookie pop messages. I mostly ignore them. I assume all sites use cookies.
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: i run a grid and the logs are gone after a restart
[11:42] Selby.Evans I already knew they had to store those things to provide the service--so I already consented --- not forced consent -- nothing like when SL grabbed a license on everything its users had made
[11:42] Bill.Blight not realizing it does not change the facts
[11:42] Leighton.Marjoram Are you talking about financial transaction reporting.
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: gone poof
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: well just means i dont visit such grids who are that anal
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: i mean server log files
[11:43] Leighton.Marjoram and that is your choice Arielle
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: it is
[11:43] Leighton.Marjoram thats the whole point you as the data subject have the choice
[11:43] Bill.Blight Lena is wrong, she might be right for just Germany, but according to the GDPR, if you combine Avatar Name, with UUID , with IP address, that is enough information to lead back to a Natural Person
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: There was a Dilbert cartoon about data retention where the boss was required to bang his head on the desk until he forgot what he was talking agout.
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: One difference with cookies is users have control over their use. You can tell your browser not to accept them.
[11:44] Leighton.Marjoram if avoiding a 20 million or 4% of turnover profits is anal, then cover me in chocolate and call me anal.
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker: :)
[11:44] Arielle Popstar: and it doesnt stop me from having an opinion whether such data is needed or even legal under the terms of GDPR
[11:44] Bill.Blight the question is not , are "Avatars natural people" the question is , "Does the server have enough info to lead to a natural person?"
[11:44] Dragon Moorlord: thank you andrew
[11:45] Leighton.Marjoram your opinion matters Arielle but I wont be changing the way I conduct business based of it. Thats all.
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: so from an opensim dev view, is there anything that needs to be done to make it more compliant?
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: We are getting close to the top of the hour. I don't know what you were talking about before I got here. Is there any other topic someone wants to talk about other then the GDPR that hasn't come up yet?
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: one thing i have not seen talked about is the HG suitcase and the content that is shown tothe destination grid
[11:46] Dragon Moorlord: yes.. Timeouts on lludp.. what causes that
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, I don't know enough about the GPDR to comment.
[11:47] Bill.Blight I cover inventory access in my privacy policy
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: I'm going to start talking about an OpenSim issue: Mantis 8251 is where I discovered fetching from LSL lists was 50x slower on some versions of mono. I am trying to reproduce the same issue in a standalone C# program to submit to the mono group.
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: I wrote a C# program to create an array of doubles, it does not show the slowdown on mono 5.x.
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: An easy way to present the TOS/Policy is one thing that you need to be able to put in place easily. The "right to forget" part isn't easy when data about an avatars use of a grid can be spread over multiple log files.
[11:48] Kayaker Magic: I tried re-writing it to be an array of structs, still no slowdown.
[11:48] Kayaker Magic: I re-wrote it to use an array of classes, still no slowdown.
[11:48] Bill.Blight Log files are allowed to be kept for security purposes and as long as they are moved to a secure location
[11:48] Kayaker Magic: Any suggestions on how to write C# to emulate what lists are like in OpenSim LSL?
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: Diva talked a few years ago about setting HG up so that it was possible to get a authorization page popup
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, First thought is look at the OS code to see how they are currently implemented.
[11:49] Dragon Moorlord: im noticing alot of grids has authorization pages now.. '
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: (Bill, they could be stripped easily enough of personally identifiable data)
[11:50] Bill.Blight Arielle , what Diva was talking about is exactly what I am using, the RemoteAuthorzationService
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I remember something about showing new users a TOS page. I don't remember where i saw that.
[11:51] Bill.Blight yes logfiles could be stripped, your office could be broken into, there is a point where you have to have accountability
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: diva mentioned it somewhere a few years back when she was working on HG 20-2.5
[11:52] Leighton.Marjoram you could also mention how your log files are processed and how that impacts the right to be forgotten. For example all logs get deleted after 3 days.
[11:52] Leighton.Marjoram You will exist on our system for 3 days then dissapear something like that
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: 3 days would be barely worth mentioning and would be fine i think for a lot of people
[11:53] Bill.Blight I just want to say, if a grid, refuses to tell you what data they are storing, then there is something wrong there. This has not changed any of the data that is exchanged on the HG, just makes people aware of it. So if you are not using the data for nefarious purposes, I find it hard to figure out what the issue is ..
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: its that digiworldz and kitely went on about keeping them for years
[11:53] Leighton.Marjoram well that was an arbitrary number but the number has to be real when you inform someone. For example you say 3 days and they actually stay there for a month. Thats not being upfront is?
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Do you think the problem you found with lists no longer exists when using mono 5?
[11:54] Bill.Blight well I think security logs you are allowed to keep them for 3 years, and if the data is not used for marketing but only security then there are a lot of exceptions for it ..
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: how does security come into it from a historical perspective?
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: It was going from 4.x to 5.2 that I first noticed the problem. Lists in 5.x are slow. I have tested every version of mono since 5.2 and even 5.12 still has slow lists in OpenSim LSL
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: do the log files contain chats either local or IM?
[11:55] Bill.Blight no
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: noone of the grids mentioned that aspect
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, Log files can contain an avatars name, IP address browser name (as provided by the browser), and their mac address.
[11:56] Bill.Blight and the MAC address is hashed , so it is not their actual MAC
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Also the time they logged on or off to a grid.
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: that to me is potentially sensitive
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Grids use web pages so there is some information logged when using the grids website.
[11:57] Bill.Blight Sensitive, you have been providing this info for years, yet now are worried about it?
[11:57] George Equus: I went to a governmental page today and filled in some things,on one page it was instructed NOT to give ANY personal information of any kind, e-mail, name...
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: the gdpr is bringing forth the idea that there needs to be some privacy involved in our internet dealings
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: i think it is a good thing
[11:58] Bill.Blight well Arielle, if Lena is right in her assessment then the data we have is not sensitive
[11:58] Leighton.Marjoram me too its a hot mess at the moment as no one seems sure exactly what is needed
[11:58] George Equus: If nothing else it sure have brought attention to all ppl that their info is floating around
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: but mostly i see gruids trying to cover their asses by getting authorization for the data they keeping instead of questioning why they keeping it
[11:59] Leighton.Marjoram nods @ George
[11:59] Bill.Blight I agree with that Arielle
[11:59] Bill.Blight someone mark th at on the calendar
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks flüstert: gruids? Nice word. :)
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: :)
[11:59] Bill.Blight but the other issue is, THIS IS HOW THE INTERNET WORKS
[11:59] Bill.Blight this is how HG has always worked
[12:00] Leighton.Marjoram I agree Arielle that is a scope question ( collect what you need and no more and delete it when you are done)
[12:00] George Equus: In a nutshell
[12:00] Bill.Blight this data NEEDS to be exchanged, and making you aware of it is now a requirement
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: yes i understand that Bill
[12:00] Bill.Blight is screaming that at the sky not at one particular person
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I wonder how the GDPR affects people in a grid who are selling items. There may be transaction information saved by the store owner.
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: prob i see that by requiring an hg visitor to agree to the same tos and privacy policy as the regular residents leaves an hg visitor open to having more data collected about them then the jump requires
[12:01] Leighton.Marjoram I am a big fan of making concrete data subject rights other than that I think its a little heavy handed but will settle
[12:02] Bill.Blight umm
[12:02] Bill.Blight no
[12:02] Bill.Blight because before the consent was required we had that info anyway
[12:02] Leighton.Marjoram Your not you asking for the data processing for the jump. The exchange of data between servers to connect not the same TOS as the website
[12:02] Leighton.Marjoram You are asking I mean
[12:04] Bill.Blight And actually in our case our HG auth policy is not the same privacy policy for the whole site,
[12:04] Bill.Blight it is a subset
[12:05] Bill.Blight so again this data connection for the HG is not new, it is how the HG works, the fact the servers have and will have access to it, is not new, the fact that people are freaking out now that they are aware, this is true also
[12:05] Dragon Moorlord: my opinion is that is more a hassel not for authorizing that just going and seeing whats out there.. more of a headach
[12:06] Bill.Blight In the case of what we use, you only have to auth on your first HG jump to the grid, and will only get forgotten , on request or upon a privacy policy change.
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: i think Bill it was unfortunate that it was Digi worldz that was covered first
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: it set a few people's teeth on edge including mine
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: The GPDR requirement will be interesting for an HG traveller. They could have one of those PP consent things pop up on every grid they enter. I wonder if they would have to do that on each visit to a given grid.
[12:07] Bill.Blight no
[12:07] Bill.Blight only on the first visit
[12:08] Han Held: I think he meant for each individual grid one visits?
[12:08] Bill.Blight grid is an entity , so they just need to give their consent to the governing entity
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: unless the PP changes
[12:08] Dragon Moorlord: thats is true, i actually just came across that HG auth the other day.. when i jumped to the canadian grid
[12:08] Han Held: visit 12 grids, get 12 pop-ups
[12:08] Bill.Blight yep Han
[12:09] Bill.Blight the issue with the GDPR is there is also part about "Implied Consent" is a NO NO, so that could end up biting people falling back on the "function argument"
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Visit the same 12 grids another day and I think you may get the 12 pop-ups yet again.
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: not sure but seems like metro not requiring anything
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: not seen anything on it from osgrid
[12:10] Bill.Blight well we are unclear how long we can store the auth, but we think it is two years, since we don't use it for marketing purposes
[12:10] Bill.Blight so in theory if the privacy policy never changes, you would only get the popup once in two years for each avatar you have
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: nods
[12:11] Han Held: Has changing how opensim works to make it easier to work with the GDPR been discussed? I'm assuming that's what the meeting was about, but I wasn't here ....
[12:11] Bill.Blight If you use the data for marketing , it falls under other rules
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Depends on how/where the PP acceptance was stored for an avatar.
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: i brought up about authorization diva mentioned a few years ago
[12:12] Bill.Blight does not really depend on how or where it is stored, depends on more WHY it is stored
[12:12] Dragon Moorlord: in this case security
[12:12] Dragon Moorlord: ?
[12:12] Han Held: It could be stored a lot clearer, so that it's easier for admins to find and if needed delete any user info they get
[12:12] Bill.Blight Arielle, that is pretty much exactly what I am using
[12:12] Bill.Blight what Diva was talking about
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I thought the why is for compliance with the GDPR and so an avatar doesn't have to keep accepting the same PP.
[12:13] Bill.Blight they don't , unless the PP changes
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: was it something diva put in but didnt document?
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: or your own version?
[12:13] Bill.Blight no it is a core opensim service that just nobody uses very often
[12:13] Bill.Blight it requires external php pages
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: eek
[12:15] Bill.Blight no the remoteauth service uses whatever you have setup in your external php pages, in my case I store it separate from the opensim data
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: :)
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: is that where they were talking about the need for PHP 7?
[12:16] Bill.Blight the php checks the opensim data for that user, but with an @ in the name it assumes you are a HG visitor, and sends you the auth
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, is there a web page you can point to for other people who would like to use the remote authorization feature?
[12:16] Bill.Blight it is only talked about a little bit on the wiki
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: oh i can get that sometimes on a home grid
[12:16] Bill.Blight yes but that is just viewerside Arielle
[12:17] Bill.Blight the server still sees you as local
[12:17] Bill.Blight that is a an viewer issue, and it is annoying
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: ok Bill
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, ok. If you want to provide enhance the information about it go right ahead. :)
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: likely]
[12:17] Bill.Blight I'll write something up
[12:17] Dragon Moorlord: awesome
[12:17] Bill.Blight I am also putting together a standalone, GDPR php for external auth, that I will opensource when done
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill: ty. I'm sure others will find it helpful.
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Awesome.
[12:18] Arielle Popstar: cool
[12:18] Bill.Blight that is just a test page right now with hardcoded data but you can click the buttons
[12:19] Dragon Moorlord: thats cool..
[12:20] Bill.Blight click no , it redirects you to google .. LOL
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: that will be great for a lot of people who might be concerned running standalones
[12:20] Bill.Blight I should have it redirect to the GDPR page
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Good idea, Bill
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: could it be done for wifi pages i wonder?
[12:20] Bill.Blight this version does not even connect to the opensim DB it is totally standalone, just requires it's own db
[12:21] Bill.Blight it ignores local avatars
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Have it redirect to a page about what it means to the user and their ability to use the grid if they have not accepted the GDPR and include a link to more details about the GDPR.
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: nods
[12:22] Bill.Blight well it tells them if they don't accept they can't get there, so that pretty much says it
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah
[12:22] Bill.Blight *NOTE: For transparency, you also should be informed that your Avatar Name and UUID is exchanged between grids and
grid users, for things such as , Friendships, Friendship Requests, Instant messages, Profiles, and
inventory exchanges, regardless if you actually travel to a foreign grid.
[12:23] Bill.Blight that I think is an important part
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I noticed that.
[12:23] Arielle Popstar: yes was thinking that
[12:23] Dragon Moorlord: how come some grid, your suitcase is unavailable ?
[12:23] Arielle Popstar: would chat to a grid where i have a friend be blocked if i havent accepted their tos pp
[12:24] Bill.Blight they are using older HG protocol
[12:24] Bill.Blight that does not support the suitcase
[12:24] Arielle Popstar: osgrid is on HG 1 which doesnt have a suitcase
[12:24] Dragon Moorlord: ah..
[12:24] Dragon Moorlord: ok
[12:24] Arielle Popstar: first suitcase was on hg 1.5
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to have another look at that remote authorization feature this week. I've been working on another non-OS related project for the past several days.
[12:24] Bill.Blight no this does not interfere with anything done remotely, ONLY if you travel to the grid
[12:25] Bill.Blight your home grid's TOS and PP should cover those such exchanges , and if they don't they should
[12:25] Bill.Blight Which is why I added it as a NOTE
[12:25] Arielle Popstar: but would my contact and chat to remotte friend also be recorded on their grid?
[12:26] Bill.Blight well
[12:26] Bill.Blight HG offline messages should not be stored, and only offline messages are stored, chat is not logged to the db, unless they are doing something they shouldn't be doing
[12:26] Bill.Blight offline messages are removed from the DB as soon as they are delilvered
[12:27] Arielle Popstar: HG has offline messages i thought
[12:27] Bill.Blight HG offline messages are flakey at best
[12:27] Bill.Blight so I personally don't implement them
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: yes have seen that
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: flakiness
[12:28] Bill.Blight I would rather someone know the message is not going to get there than wonder if it did
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: inconsistent
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks nods to Bill
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: but on hgluv i do get notified if hasnt been stored
[12:29] Arielle Popstar: but think Hy fixed the code for that
[12:29] Bill.Blight flüstert: yes and you will get that on my grid too, unless I broke it recently
[12:29] Arielle Popstar: one last question Andrew
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, ok. You just caught me. I was about to log out.
[12:30] Arielle Popstar: is there somewhere were there is a listing of the commits going into the https branch/master
[12:30] Bill.Blight
[12:30] Arielle Popstar: that can be seen by regular people
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: You can use a git client, check out the code and check the log. The other place is where the code is stored.
[12:31] Arielle Popstar: oh great, thx Bill
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. The URL Bill just pasted.
[12:31] Bill.Blight lol, I have that open 150% of the time
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: sure others will be interested so hopefully Sheera will include it in the chat log
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: (hint hint ) :)
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: The changelog entries that Ubit writes are often very brief and may not tell you what was really changed, or why, without checking the details of the commit.
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: yes the code is the manual  :)
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, :)
[12:33] Arielle Popstar: he learned that well from Mel ;)
[12:33] Bill.Blight yeah, Ubit is , Ubit, don't expect it to change
[12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, if you check that place BIll pointed to you can get the full details of the actual commit but it may not mean much to a non-coder.
[12:34] Arielle Popstar: often it doesnt but can get a bit of a clue and can always ask one who does know
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Its been an hour and a half now. I think its time to call this gathering to a close.
[12:34] Bill.Blight usually if ubits comments are very short or an oops it applies to one of the just previous commits

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